Increase the number of meritable WS

Pretty simple.

Yes please. I can't for the life of me see it as game breaking even if we were allowed to merit them all. They have from nice to awesome animations, and I've long since run out of things to merit.

For the life of me can't understand why SE is not willing to let us have a time sink. No two ways about it would keep people playing longer. Unless they think people will level alt char for WS and magic merits lol.

Good lord I wish I could merit more. I really want SD / Apex Arrow / Ruin and so forth. Come on SE, let us merit more.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-from-15-to-25


Needless to say, I agree. And liked :D

It is interesting that when we ask for some sort of time sink like this, they often say we can't have it for BALANCE!! reasons but they'll gladly insert miserable time sinks that no one asks for. In a game that's pretty much based on not having to specialize they sure do like forcing us to specialize. I don't understand it. Maybe we should be using reverse psychology here.

yea its really depressing sitting on Ruinator, Shoha, Resolution, and not being able to get entropy

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

Why am i not surprised Ahelm Is against something that everyone else agrees would be a reasonable adjustment in moderation?

Can't see why raising the maximum number of Fully meritable WS from 3, to say, 5, Would ruin the idea of specialization. You'd still only have 1/3rd of the possible weapon choices, and these days with so many people having multiple 99 jobs, 3 Is really restricting. Putting 1 merit into a WS is more or less a waste of time considering with 1/5 Merits, You'll likely get better damage from Burning Blade and Raging Axe.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Why am i not surprised Ahelm Is against something that everyone else agrees would be a reasonable adjustment in moderation?

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No no, anyone who disagrees is simply following my reverse psychology suggestion!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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Following that logic why doesnt SE limit the amount of jobs we take to 99? that'd even further how specialized your character is, oh we can even limit the amount of subjobs you can level too is that specialized enough for you?

Despit the snippy tone of my previous paragraph i do have a point there, we are able to level all jobs, quest all mythic relic and empyrean should you choose ect. ect. why does there need to be specialization in a game that allows you to level all classes in the first place? as it stands inventory limitations already decide how many classes you can play at 100% effectiveness.

The only things that disturb's the balance more is when I pay for something and I don't get what I want out of it. Take out the cap or increase please.

Thank you.

Well the way I see it this way is more of a time sink as can possibly be, there is a remove merit for a reason, by having to remove and add merits you will keep having to cycle them. And as such you would be spending more time and merits than just simply leveling all WS and calling it good.

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Originally Posted by Nala

Following that logic why doesnt SE limit the amount of jobs we take to 99? that'd even further how specialized your character is, oh we can even limit the amount of subjobs you can level too is that specialized enough for you?

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I already addressed this when SE had announced the merit cap in the first place. The specialization argument is completely stupid, since it goes against everything that FFXI has different over other MMOs.

If people really must have a specialization argument, then why block people from meriting all of them anyways? There are people who can really do it all, they just work harder at it. Thus, if it is really an issue, then people wanting to unlock the ability to unlock more merit WS should just have to pay merits to get the ability. Thus lets say you spend 30 merits to unlock the ability to get 16th-20th points in the merit WS category, 60 to unlock your 21st-25th points, 90 to unlock your 26th-30th and so on. It will be insanely expensive to unlock all of them, thus countering any logical or intelligent argument against it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize,

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Why? Because you say so? I say you shouldn't be forced to specialize. Why? Because the job system they've created is actually the antithesis of specialization. All jobs are fully available on any single character. What part of that says to you that specialization is the direction of the game? Forced specialization is actually jumping the shark. It's quite inconsistent with what's presented at the outset and really serves no purpose.

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that's what merits were originally about.

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No... Merits are about being able to advance your character once it's reached the level cap. The LIMITS they placed on merits force you to specialize, but the idea of meriting is not about specialization.

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You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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Not as good? I think you vastly overestimate the worth of a not-fully merited WS.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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i loled at that for obvious reasons.

But to the subject. some merit weaponskills are pretty crappy, but they have a great animation. its neither gamebreaking nor disrupting any balance to allow us to spend our merits to cap them all.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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No you can't.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

No you can't.

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Yes, you can. There are 14 weapon skills, and you get 15 points to spend.

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Why? Because you say so? I say you shouldn't be forced to specialize.

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Yes, because I said so. [sarcasm]

No, because SE said so. Why do you think there are limits on the categories in the first place? BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO SPECIALIZE, AND NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THE BEST EVERYTHING. Outside of equipment, merit points are pretty much the only thing that makes one character distinct at all from another.

If you can have every merit maxed, then I want to be able to reach level 346. I want to cast all my spells for no mana. I want <insert limit here> to be removed. Hello slippery slope! If you never have to make decisions or those decisions don't have weight, it sucks the fun out of the game- Everybody will be exactly the same.

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Not as good? I think you vastly overestimate the worth of a not-fully merited WS.

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Not at all. But some people above are saying "oh, some WS aren't as good but I want them anyway so i can see the shiny animation!" - Well, if that's the case, then it doesn't matter how strong it is now, does it? You just want to see the animation because it looks cool.

So here's what you do: Merit it with 1 point. Use the WS over and over til you're sick of looking at it. Un-merit it. Merit something else.

I love "Remove the <limitation> limit!" threads- They're always super popular and gain tons of support because who wants limits? But people don't realize that the limits are there for a reason and in many cases, the game would end up being less fun than if the limits weren't there.

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Following that logic why doesnt SE limit the amount of jobs we take to 99?

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This doesn't follow that logic. Being able to level and play any job is one of the game's central features, which was specifically advertised. Limiting the merits is what is done instead of limiting the jobs you can play- thus, you can play them all, but you have to choose the ones you like most to maximize. People seem to have this funny idea that it renders all their other jobs unuseable- it doesn't.

I wouldn't be opposed to being able to max 1 or 2 more. But I would be vehemently opposed to being able to max all of them.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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Admittingly I shared a similar thought upon the release of the WS but now the dust has settled I must respectfully disagree because well.... certain jobs are just pure crap without their newest weaponskills.

For instance, I've got a BST but I happen to have my merits in Last Stand, Shoha and Exenterator. Without access to Ruinator BST is stuck using Rampage which is quite terrible in comparison to the more modern WS. Axe has pretty much nothing else going for it meaning you either put down the merits or get stuck using something designed for lvl55.

Yeah.

There are other examples like Tachi: Shoha which completely changes SAM. Without it you might as well not use the class if you have it leveled. Fudo doesn't compare and requires an Emp, Ageha is useless now and everything else is old and ineffective.

In short, access to another 3 unlocks would beneficial and open up the ability to modernize classes without being stuck with something vastly inferior.

The idea of forced specialization in a game designed from the beginning to be about free use of any job is just stupid. If you want a game with forced Specialization, There are quite a few on the market. You can play a game where you get 1 job Per character, and every character can only equip 1 weapon type, and 1 set of armor. Sounds enjoyable right?

No. Neither is being able to play 20 jobs, Get 20 Relics, 20 Empyreans, 20 Mythics, Unlock every weaponskill for every job... then suddenly having that freedom to experience every job torn from you and reduced to a measly 1/5th potential from new content.

Problem is, It falls in line with merits. Merit Combat Skills and magic Skills both force limitations on us, I never understood the idea of Category Caps for merits personally, If i wanted to burn through thousands of merits, I should be able too cap all Merits have to offer. I mean, It gives me more of a time sink, Which is all SE Cares about these days, Bottle-necking any smallest thing by adding absurd restrictions... You'd think completely unlocking merit Categories would be a step in their direction.

Maybe they're saving that for when they realize they're out of content and need to give us something to do for about a month?

Either way, unfortunately forced specilization has always been the Theme of merits, So i don't fully condone unlocking all Merit WS's, even though i would thoroughly enjoy it, and i feel thats the direction every merit category should take... But increasing it from 3 to 5 should be a reasonable compromise...

Yes, yes and yes! A thousand times yes! and liked!

Simple proceedure for gaining tons of likes on this forum:

1) Post a thread stating that such and such a limit or restriction be removed. It could be anything. Limits are bad!
2) Profit!

Nobody seems to comprehend that limits exist for a variety of reasons- Game balance, preventing technical issues, defining systems, and more.

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force limitations on us

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If it wasn't forced on people, nobody would specialize. Everyone would just get everything eventually (Sure, initially, people would pick what they like most, but as time goes on, everyone moves toward the same end point and then everyone's merits become the same- This might be "balanced" or "fair" but it's also boring and uninteresting). I don't really see it as "forcing" anyone to do anything other than make a choice. any percieved lack of choice (e.g. pigeonholing) is imposed by the playerbase, particularly the elitists who decide what is best and then everyone else follows. To me, however, it grants me the freedom to NOT do the same thing everyone else is doing. People use words like "force" to make it sound as if it's bad. It doesn't have to be and isn't bad.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Simple proceedure for gaining tons of likes on this forum:

1) Post a thread stating that such and such a limit or restriction be removed. It could be anything. Limits are bad!
2) Profit!

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Simple procedure for Indentifying Analhelm

1) Find Thread with popular idea, Liked by many, and considered reasonable if done right.
2) Disagree with it for no other reason than attention and to just disagree with anything popular.
3) ???
4) Profit

I can be a smarta** too.

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2) Disagree with it for no other reason than attention and to just disagree with anything popular.

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Except that's not why I'm disagreeing. I'm disagreeing because I genuinely feel that this doesn't need to be changed and that people are just whining about something having a limit or restriction on it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

But people don't realize that the limits are there for a reason and in many cases, the game would end up being less fun than if the limits weren't there.

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Are you really saying the game would be less fun if we were able to merit (as in capping out) all the new weaponskills?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Except that's not why I'm disagreeing. I'm disagreeing because I genuinely feel that this doesn't need to be changed and that people are just whining about something having a limit or restriction on it.

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20 jobs possible to 99 limited to only 3 merited weapon skills to max is pretty lame to me. The weapon skills are entirely useless if you only put 1 merit into them all.

If I had a choice, I would merit each weapon skill to their fullest, this way, every job I have could make use of them. I wonder if they took into consideration that people now can easily have 12+ lvl99 jobs these days.

Nonetheless, I agree with the two topics ops wanting to up it to where you can have an additional merited weapon skill at max. It wouldn't really break the game in anyway; it would just make the community happier if the Devs were to actually respond or agree to add it.

I'm sure SE will eventually raise the cap on this category as they have with all the others with the exception of job specific merits, I'm just hoping it will be sooner rather than later. Speaking of job specific merits, isn't is absurd we can put merits into every job we lvl to 75? It's positively game breaking, I mean at most we should be able to put 15 merits into all jobs total. Meaning we could cap two things in tier 1 and one thing in tier 2 for a single job! Or we could get creative and put a single merit into 15 jobs. Sounds balanced to me.

In fact we shouldn't really be allowed to take all jobs to 99, we should be forced to select and specialize in a maximum of 5 jobs.

BALANCE!

I'm fairly sure the original concept behind the merit system was to give players the opportunity to decide which of their jobs they wanted to take beyond their natural limitations - read: decide/force a specialisation. SE didn't want to us to have everything otherwise they probably wouldn't have put in there in the first place.

I don't have an issue in increasing the cap considering some jobs really do need those WS to have something decent. But rather than an increase in the maximum amount you can merit up to 5/5 - which is obviously the want here - I'd prefer to see these WS being usable naturally, with merits allowing a further increase in their potential. Maybe even having these merits raise the potential of all WS for a particular weapon type, perhaps by raising the relevant stat modifier by a % or the fTP values - I have no idea what the balancing implications of these would be. At the very least, everyone has a decent WS - where Empy/Relic/Mythic WS should get a clear advantage over them - that is capable of modernizing the jobs or giving them an alternative to the pre-cap ones that are starting to show their age.

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Originally Posted by Kysaiana

Speaking of job specific merits, isn't is absurd we can put merits into every job we lvl to 75?

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I had a thought about it too whilst reading this discussion. It would have been - under the common thought patterns of today - an awesome way to piss off a lot of players. Despite it being restricted, I, for one, would find this to be a fitting way to enforce the concept of a merit system which promotes careful decision making. A limit of 150-200 potential merits spread across all of the jobs. SE were being incredibly lenient in allowing players to merit jobs on an individual cap - they could have done both.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If it wasn't forced on people, nobody would specialize.

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Closing point: The majority of players that I've read the posts of don't seem to want to specialize. They don't want to make decisions about where to take their characters. They don't want to choose between ability A and ability B. They want it all. And that's the recurring word of the moment: want. It's not about needing to have more choice to cater or enhance the game, they just want it. I may remember wrong, but I'm sure the increase in the limits on the general merit categories came about because people wanted to merit their new - easily - acquired jobs and not have to choose between having dagger or katana now. I think they should have been left exactly as they were, just to encourage this idea of decision making. The only categories that did need to be raised are HP/MP and Attributes - 80HP and +5STR wasn't going to cut it with the 24 level increase.

The problem I feel, in the end, has a lot to do with the fact that this is an RPG. It relies on it's mathematics, and with an MMO, you have to balance the min/max potential. The issue comes from the fact that players want to have that maximum potential in everything they do. This is why these threads come up: we need the cap on merits increased/removed, we need more inventory space so I can have this situationally better piece of gear etc etc. The thing is: it's not a need, it's a want, fed by the desire to be perfect in all that we do.

Saying they should be left exactly as they are completely ignores the issues with Category 2 Job merits for 1 and having 3 weaponskills to merit when many of them are incredibly useful for multiple jobs for 2. Increasing the cap =! 5/5 all the merit weaponskills. I fail to see how being able to merit 5 of them is unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm disagreeing because I genuinely feel that this doesn't need to be changed and that people are just whining about something having a limit or restriction on it.

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Restrictions suck.

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Originally Posted by Alikhat

But rather than an increase in the maximum amount you can merit up to 5/5 - which is obviously the want here - I'd prefer to see these WS being usable naturally, with merits allowing a further increase in their potential.

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While this could work if it was adjusted, having the WS naturally as they are now will not do. Unless they're merited fully they're all very weak, even just having 4/5 merits means most of them aren't worth using over other readily available WS (20% off the WSC at ~150 means 25 less base damage). Which means, in terms of efficiency, having a WS merited 4/5 equates to about not having it at all for many of the WS.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes, because I said so. [sarcasm]

No, because SE said so. Why do you think there are limits on the categories in the first place? BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO SPECIALIZE, AND NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THE BEST EVERYTHING. Outside of equipment, merit points are pretty much the only thing that makes one character distinct at all from another.

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We're not children. Because Papa Tanaka said so isn't a good enough reason. WHY do they want us to specialize, and don't we already do that by changing jobs? We're already limited as to what Weapon Skills we have access to because of job exclusivity and skill levels. If I could fully merit all the Weapon Skills it's not going to turn my MNK into anything that it's not already. Even WAR can't use them all and even if they could, a WAR won't use them all effectively.

I just fail to see how anything becomes OP or unbalanced here whether I can fully unlock 5 10 or 14 of them. If I'm not supposed to be able to fully unlock all the merit WS then why can I unlock all the WSNM and Mythic ones? Why is this different simply because the WS are locked behind merits rather than a quest?

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The majority of players that I've read the posts of don't seem to want to specialize. They don't want to make decisions about where to take their characters. They don't want to choose between ability A and ability B. They want it all. And that's the recurring word of the moment: want. It's not about needing to have more choice to cater or enhance the game, they just want it.

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People might want things but that doesn't always mean they should have them.

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Restrictions suck.

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Yeah. I know! Like how they force me to drive on the right side of the road. Why can't i drive on the left? That would be far more fun!

That was so stupid, I don't know what to say.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

That was so stupid, I don't know what to say.

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If lame analogies are the only way i can get through, then that's what I have to do. Restrictions usually exist for a reason. We may not like the restriction, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

It wasn't a lame analogy, it was a incredibly stupid one. The only thing I got is you have no real argument for keeping them at 15 merits maximum other than 'because SE said so'.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

We're not children.

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People sure act like it when someone disagrees with something :|

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Originally Posted by Elexia

People sure act like it when someone disagrees with something :|

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I think it's the other way around this time. I at least tried to offer some sort of reasoning beyond "me like" or "me not like." There wasn't so much of that from the disagree side.

I don't understand the thinking behind merits being about specialization when the rest of the game seems to be the opposite of that. FFXI offers a freedom through the job system that no other game does except for XIV as far as I know, and it's one of the biggest selling points. Why then are some people so adamant that that freedom be quashed when it comes to merits? People rail that the game has become too fast and too easy, and yet this would at least add a bit of time to most people's leveling/meriting experience. I really can't see the downside here. I'm waiting for someone to show it to me.

The only things I've heard are someone saying they don't like the idea, saying that this is how SE intended things to be, if everyone max everything there'd be nothing to differentiate one person from another, and the slippery slope argument. I'm certainly no genius debater, but I can't find sound reasoning here.

If someone doesn't like it they don't have to merit what they don't want to. There's certainly no reason to merit a WS for a job you don't possess. I only level and merit what I want to. If someone does want to level every job and merit the WS for each then I see nothing wrong with giving them that freedom. It's not going to turn them into some game-breaking immortal god of destruction.

As far as SE's intentions, well I'd like to tell them where they can shove their intentions, but I'll be fair and say that an MMO is a special kind of game. It changes and evolves over time based on player feedback. In my opinion, a good MMO is one where the devs are willing to compromise with the players for the sake of fun. This is one of those times I feel some compromise is in order. AT LEAST meet us in the middle, or unlock 1 or 2 more now and then more over time.

And the slippery slope? There's a reason that's listed under fallacies.

Look the core of the game is about having the freedom to play the game to its fullest on a single character. Yes there are limits, and for many of them, understandably so. This is not one of those understandable limits. In a game where we can fully level every single job to cap on a single character we suddenly hit this arbitrary wall that doesn't mesh with anything that came before? Why? I don't get it. I don't know why people are so fond of the idea. I certainly hope those same people wouldn't turn me away because of the very same limits they wish to impose on me.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

It wasn't a lame analogy, it was a incredibly stupid one. The only thing I got is you have no real argument for keeping them at 15 merits maximum other than 'because SE said so'.

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That's not really what I'm saying, but even if we look at it the way you are, what's wrong with that reason? It's their game, they made it, they chose how the systems worked.

Lots of people have most if not every job now. Gear and merits are the last things that distinguish one player from another beyond "skill" (as if this game requires it). The Job specific merits and the weaponskill merits are basically the ones that indicate which jobs you prefer to play most. I don't think that should change.

I wouldn't fight 5-10 more points to spend, as that wouldn't take this away. I would and will fight being able to max out all/most of them because it would negatively impact the system.

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I don't understand the thinking behind merits being about specialization when the rest of the game seems to be the opposite of that

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But this sentence says you DO understand it. The "rest of the game" doesn't offer much oppertunity to specialize or get personal. Merit points are the primary point of where customization comes into play. Are you suggesting that if we have one customizable feature, we need to have XYZ number of customizable features before we call it "customization?"

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And the slippery slope? There's a reason that's listed under fallacies.

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What makes the slippery slope a fallacy is that logic can't determine (without additional proveable premises) that a bunch of unknown, unspecified things will lead in a chain to a particular final result. It's not that it would or would not happen, its that the outcome cannot be proven- thus it does not improve an argument by itself.

If you want to ignore all the above, then I'll just make one thing clear: I cannot support a vague topic title with an accompanying first post saying "pretty simple." It needs to specify how many points should be added and the reasoning for it. The OP has done none of these things, and thus cannot convince me that a change is necessary or beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not really what I'm saying, but even if we look at it the way you are, what's wrong with that reason? It's their game, they made it, they chose how the systems worked.

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You're talking about the same people who were 'surprised' at how people played SMN saying it was not ther intention for it be used that way.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Lots of people have most if not every job now. Gear and merits are the last things that distinguish one player from another beyond "skill" (as if this game requires it). The Job specific merits and the weaponskill merits are basically the ones that indicate which jobs you prefer to play most. I don't think that should change.

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If they had left the weaponskills the way they were at first testing I would agree... but 3 is far too limiting no matter how you try to cut it considering how useful some of these weaponskills are.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I wouldn't fight 5-10 more points to spend, as that wouldn't take this away. I would and will fight being able to max out all/most of them because it would negatively impact the system.

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Agreed, that's what I'm asking for. The OP actually stated such in another thread, so I'm guessing they were just lazy.