Can anyone help me make sense of this please?

This is not an invitation to a debate! This is a request for assistance!

So we were having an argument about whether swapping gear sets was worth it when someone supplied this equation with no explanation or clarification:

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Originally Posted by Equation

At 99, WSC = floor(floor((a x a%) + (b x b%)) x 0.85)

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I have to admit I haven't seen anything like it before, so I have no idea what it is I'm looking at. Naturally I ask for such things like "What does floor supposed to mean" and "What variable does 'a' and 'b' stand for?" No explanation or clarification seems to be forth coming.

Also where would I find such information such as Akvan's (and other LGNM information) VIT/DEF which is used to calculate WS damage?

This equation adds points to your base damage while performing a weapon skill. I'll use the new meritable WS as example because at 5/5 they are 100% modded by their respective stats.

So let's look at tachi: shoha. It has WSC of 100% str. When a WS is calculated, it adds WSC, weapon damage, and fSTR together to get your WS base damage.

With shoha, WSC = str*1, or str*100%. So every point of str added increase your WS base damage by 1, due to WSC. or str*.85 due to alpha correction.

Is swapping gear worth it? ALWAYS. Don't bother arguing otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Dragonlord

This equation adds points to your base damage while performing a weapon skill. I'll use the new meritable WS as example because at 5/5 they are 100% modded by their respective stats.

So let's look at tachi: shoha. It has WSC of 100% str. When a WS is calculated, it adds WSC, weapon damage, and fSTR together to get your WS base damage.

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Yeah, but fSTR is the difference between your STR and your target's VIT, right? Where do I get the information about specific mobs like Akvan, Voidwrought, Necronomicon and the other LWNM?

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Originally Posted by DL

With shoha, WSC = str*1, or str*100%. So every point of str added increase your WS base damage by 1, due to WSC. or str*.85 due to alpha correction.

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I see. But I still don't understand what 'floor' is supposed to mean. What does 'floor' mean in the equation? What do I do with it?

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Originally Posted by DL

Is swapping gear worth it? ALWAYS. Don't bother arguing otherwise.

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Not going to, because it's not the point of this thread.

Floor just means the the integer closest to and less than the number displayed. So, floor(3.98)=3. It's basically just a different way to round a number off.

fSTR is a seperate function from WSC. It is equal to [(your str)-(target's vit +4)]/4.

As for where you can find mob's stats, there's not a comprehensive list that i know of. I do know the community has figured out at least greater colibri and kirin's stats. But you'll have to look around to find it in threads and such.

Edit: corrected formula (thanks Arcon)

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Originally Posted by Dragonlord

Floor just means the the integer closest to and less than the number displayed. So, floor(3.98)=3. It's basically just a different way to round a number off.

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I see, where is this derived from?

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Originally Posted by DL

fSTR is a seperate function from WSC. It is equal to [(your str)-(target's vit)]/4.

As for where you can find mob's stats, there's not a comprehensive list that i know of. I do know the community has figured out at least greater colibri and kirin's stats. But you'll have to look around to find it in threads and such.

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I figured it was something like that. Thanks for sharing what you did know.

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Originally Posted by Dragonlord

fSTR is a seperate function from WSC. It is equal to [(your str)-(target's vit)]/4.

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It's (STR - VIT + 4)/4, and this is only an approximation for high values of fSTR. No exact fSTR formula has been figured out, but there's an approximation table here.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

I see, where is this derived from?

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Do you mean how people figured that out? Lots and lots of testing over several years. And they still didn't figure it out fully. On many formulas people never managed to reach a consensus and are still arguing over it, but those are mostly minor deviations. The equations work to roughly estimate the damage you'll be doing. If you're interested in actual data you should look around the Mathy Parts forum on BG, they have lots of information there, although WSC and fSTR in particular are very old research topics and they may not have any information about those particular testing phases there, as it's also spread out over other forums (Alla and KI for example).

I wrote this a while ago:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Byrth%27s_WS_Damage_Guide

If something is blue, like floor, it is a link to an explanation of what it is.

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I see. But I still don't understand what 'floor' is supposed to mean. What does 'floor' mean in the equation? What do I do with it?

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"floor" essentially means "round down to nearest integer".

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

I see, where is this derived from?

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StudioGobli used to host some mob stats, or formulas/charts to aid in calculating them based on mob family, job, and level. Note, the hyperlinks for stats/charts are just pages I found via google as examples. IDK if there are any updated pages for higher level mobs (ie: post level 75) as it's a JP wiki and I can't read it. But a lot of their data has been cited/used to figure stuff out in the past.

Okay I think I understand now, so let me see if I pass this test:

We have a Hume male named Prostar who's a level 99 BLU. He has DEX of 99, +8 DEX from merits, and another +72 from macro gear for a total of 179 DEX and he's using CDC on, say, Necronomicon.

This comes out as "floor(floor((179*60%)*.85))=91" and in the end that would come out as "91*2=182"... Yeah, I took a wrong turn somewhere. Where is final damage calculated from this?

Edit to add: According to one of the wikis on the subject you're supposed to use the formula "Base Damage = floor(( Weapon Base Damage + (Ammo Damage) + fSTR(2) + WSC ) * fTP)" so that would be "Base Damage = floor(( 61 + (Ammo Damage) + (61/9) + 91 ) * 4) " but I have no idea what to do with 'ammo damage' so for now I'll ignore it and the answer comes out to "635+(158*2)=951".

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

This is not an invitation to a debate!

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Then later...

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

So we were having an argument

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I have nothing else to add.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Then later...



I have nothing else to add.

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I was explaining how the issue arose, if you had nothing to add to the conversation then why did you post?

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Edit to add: According to one of the wikis on the subject you're supposed to use the formula "Base Damage = floor(( Weapon Base Damage + (Ammo Damage) + fSTR(2) + WSC ) * fTP)" so that would be "Base Damage = floor(( 61 + (Ammo Damage) + (61/9) + 91 ) * 4) " but I have no idea what to do with 'ammo damage' so for now I'll ignore it and the answer comes out to "635+(158*2)=951".

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Ammo is only in case you're using a ranged weapon, which doesn't apply in your case (for ranged weapons base damage consists of weapon damage + ammo damage). Also, fTP for CdC is 2.25. fSTR is floor(69/9)+8 (if capped). Where does the 635 come from? It should be:

floor((61 + floor(69/9)+8 + 91)*2.25) = floor(166*2.25) = 373

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Ammo is only in case you're using a ranged weapon, which doesn't apply in your case (for ranged weapons base damage consists of weapon damage + ammo damage). Also, fTP for CdC is 2.25. fSTR is floor(69/9)+8 (if capped).

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Ah, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Where does the 635 come from?

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From the first equation, which I didn't understand quite right. Where did you get 69 from?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

floor((61 + floor(69/9)+8 + 91)*2.25) = floor(166*2.25) = 373

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Not that I'm saying that you're wrong but does that take into account that CDC is a three-hit WS?

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

From the first equation, which I didn't understand quite right. Where did you get 69 from?

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My bad, it's supposed to be 61 (Almace 90 base damage). I still don't see where 635 is from. I also don't know why you did 91*2 in the first equation.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Not that I'm saying that you're wrong but does that take into account that CDC is a three-hit WS?

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No, that was just for the first hit. All the other hits, whether it's three or five (from Double/Triple Attack, offhand or whatever) will add another hit but without the fTP multiplier. This effectively adds 1 to the fTP for each hit. So if you count three hits on average, you'll have 2.25 + 1 + 1 (first hit 2.25, every subsequent hit 1), which means combined fTP would equal 4.25.

This would bring the total result to:
floor((61 + floor(61/9)+8 + 91)*4.25) = floor(166*4.25) = 705

This result will now be multiplied with the pDIF, where your Attack will be pitted against the target's Defense (which makes it even more complicated). Note that this also doesn't take the critical hit rate/damage into account.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Yeah, but fSTR is the difference between your STR and your target's VIT, right? Where do I get the information about specific mobs like Akvan, Voidwrought, Necronomicon and the other LWNM?

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Unless I'm seriously misunderstanding fSTR, that information doesn't matter unless you can cap it against a given target, because fSTR increases your damage linearly so adding a point of STR always increases your damage by the same amount until the value is high (at which point it still increases damage more than most other options) or capped.

You are, simply put, staggeringly unlikely to cap fSTR on meaningful targets outside Abyssea. Depending on weapon rank, your target, and whether or not you set VV or a different STR atma, you may have a hard time capping fSTR inside Abyssea. The VIT of various VWNMs is perhaps interesting information to have but its practical application seems pretty limited.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

You are, simply put, staggeringly unlikely to cap fSTR on meaningful targets outside Abyssea.

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No, mobs tend to have lower defensive stats then compared to their offensive stats. fSTR's cap is weapon rank +8 where weapon rank is =floor(weapon damage/9). so a lv 90 almace with dmg:61 has weapon rank of 6, and fSTR cap of 14.

This means the blu will need only 60 str more than the target's vit to cap. This is possible against pretty much anything in abyssea (with cruor buffs easily) and i'd say up to T2 jeuno VWNMs pre-stat increasing temps.

Now for a CDC calculation:
CDC = 60% dex mod WSC, 2.25 first hit fTP
This means the WS, in total, including extra hit from DW, is a 5.25 fTP WS

WS dmg=(D+fSTR+WSC)*fTP*pDIF

WSC = 150*.6 = 90

(61+14+90)*5.25*2.4=2079 damage

Attack ratio is the formula the relates your attack to your opponent's defense. pDIF takes that and is adjusted by a random multiplier and crit damage increase. Since CDC can crit, i assumed 40% crit hit rate. This increases the avg pDIF from 2.0 (the 1 handed cap) to 2.4

There are other factors like crit hit dmg, DA, and TA, but that's not necessary to demonstrate WS calculation. Note that this calculation uses capped attack ratio and capped fSTR.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

My bad, it's supposed to be 61 (Almace 90 base damage). I still don't see where 635 is from. I also don't know why you did 91*2 in the first equation.

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The 91*2 is from a second equation and a total misunderstanding on my part of the math involved and I really should have removed it with the edit.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

No, that was just for the first hit. All the other hits, whether it's three or five (from Double/Triple Attack, offhand or whatever) will add another hit but without the fTP multiplier. This effectively adds 1 to the fTP for each hit. So if you count three hits on average, you'll have 2.25 + 1 + 1 (first hit 2.25, every subsequent hit 1), which means combined fTP would equal 4.25.

This would bring the total result to:
floor((61 + floor(61/9)+8 + 91)*4.25) = floor(166*4.25) = 705

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So a Galka DRG with (being generous here) 350 STR and a level 95 Rhongomiant and uses Star Diver you'd have something like "floor((146+floor(146/9)+8+124)*3)=834"?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

This result will now be multiplied with the pDIF, where your Attack will be pitted against the target's Defense (which makes it even more complicated).

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Is there an chart or something to help determine this?

gear swap is for soloist

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/Rosina-Poster2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

So a Galka DRG with (being generous here) 350 STR and a level 95 Rhongomiant and you'd have something like "floor((146+floor(146/9)+8+124)*3)=834"?

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Are you using Camlann's Torment as WS? As you were using 124 for the WSC value, and the WS has a 60% VIT mod, so x*0.6*0.85 = 124 means you were going with ~244 VIT? If so, then yes, this calculation is correct, only the result is a bit off:

floor((146 + floor(146/9)+8 + 124)*3) = floor((146 + 16+8 + 124)*3) = floor(294*3) = 882

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Is there an chart or something to help determine this?

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Sadly, no one fully understands how pDIF exactly works. There's some approximations of it you can follow here, and there are several DD spreadsheets that calculate some of that stuff for you (also just approximately, though) here.

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

gear swap is for soloist

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/Rosina-Poster2.jpg

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Thanks for that. Laughed big time. Good way to start the day.

Trying for a simple explanation, but it's going to run a bit long:

Each hit of your weaponskill uses the base calculated damage.

The first hit of your weaponskill is also multiplied by the fTP value. For certain special weaponskills (eg: Stardiver, Resolution, a few more), -all- hits are multiplied by the fTP value.

It's common to refer to the total of all the hits by a combined fTP value (such as what was done above with CdC). This is merely a shorthand reference value, and I'd suggest avoiding it until you understand what it's a shorthand for and why it's used.


Calculated base damage is based on: weapon damage (and ammo, if it's a ranged weapon), fStr and WSC.

Weapon damage is easy enough (just look at the description), though you need to account for skill if using H2H, and occasional latent effects.

fStr is based on the difference between Str and the target's Vit, but is not equal to that. It's approximately 1/4 of that (or 1/2 if using a ranged weapon), with limits based on the weapon rank. The weapon rank is floor(weapon damage / 9). The fStr limit is [-weapon rank] to [weapon rank + 8].

WSC is a value that players have figured out, and you have to look it up for each weaponskill. The alpha value is an additional bit of scaling that changes with player level. If you're level 80 or higher, alpha is 0.85. So, a 100% WSC (fully merited Stardiver or whatever) is [Str * 100% * 0.85]. CdC is [Dex * 60% * 0.85].



So, a level 90 Almace has a weapon damage value of 61.

Its weapon rank is floor(61/9) = floor(6.7778) == 6

Its fStr is thus constrained to be between -6 and +14

~ I'll use an arbitrary value of +10 fStr for this example.

WSC is 60% of dex. Assuming 179 dex used during the weaponskill, final WSC value is:
floor(179 * 60%) = floor(107.4) == 107
floor(107 * 0.85) = floor(90.95) == 90


Total calculated base damage is thus: 61 + 10 + 90 = 161


Now you go back and look at how fTP affects things. An fTP of 2.25 means the first hit is multiplied by 2.25, while any remaining hits stay at the calculated base damage. (Note: gorgets get added in here, but I'm not using any for this example.)

First hit: floor(161 * 2.25) = floor(362.25) == 362
Additional hits: 161


You then look at your pDif (which may be modified by being a crit). pDif is based on cRatio; cRatio is based on Ratio; Ratio is your attack divided by the target's defense.

Attack of 600 vs defense of 500
Ratio = 600 / 500 = 1.2
[Can't be higher than 2.0 for a 1-handed weapon; can't be higher than 2.25 for a 2-handed weapon]

For every level above you the target is, reduce Ratio by 0.05 in order to get cRatio
Example target is level 103 (ie: 4 levels higher than you)
cRatio = Ratio - (4 * 0.05) = 1.2 - (4 * 0.05) = 1.2 - 0.2 = 1.0

If it's a crit, you then add 1.0 to this value.
Normal: 1.0
Crit: 2.0

pDif is quite complicated, so I won't get into the details here. For now we can assume that your pDif will approximately average out to the value of your cRatio.
pDif ~= 1.0, or 2.0 if it's a crit (for this example)

Here's a thumbnail picture (click for full size view) to show the general range that pDif can fall in based on wRatio (where wRatio is either cRatio, or cRatio+1 if the value is a crit):

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...ab1e_thumb.png

It includes test data and prediction plots, which is why it looks a little messy.


Final damage:
First hit: 362, or 724 (362 * 2.0) if it's a crit
Additional hits: 161, or 322 if any are crits
[Aside: if the hit is a crit, also factor in any +crit damage effects; not going to get into that here.]

With one main hit and two additional hits (ignoring offhand), you have an average damage total between [362 + 161 + 161] = 684, and [724 + 322 + 322] = 1368, depending on how many hits managed to crit.



That largely covers the process of figuring out weaponskill damage, and should be sufficient for most basic needs.

Nicely explained, Motenten. Thanks for posting that.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

I have to admit I haven't seen anything like it before, so I have no idea what it is I'm looking at. Naturally I ask for such things like "What does floor supposed to mean" and "What variable does 'a' and 'b' stand for?" No explanation or clarification seems to be forth coming.

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When I linked to the WSC and Floor page on bgwiki I had hoped you would have actually read the article since it tells you exactly what they mean. In the equation you mention in original post 'a' stands for primary modifier and b stands for secondary modifiers -if- the WS has any (not all do, but there are some).

In the case of say Dancing Edge there is two modifiers Dex and Chr. Thus 'a' is your Dex multiplied by modifier percent and 'b' is your Chr multiplied by modifier percent. In the case of WS that have no secondary modifier 'b' is dropped out of that equation. At the end the 0.85 is known as an Alpha, or otherwise refereed to as level range correction on damage.

While others have stated this won't give you the exact damage on the spot you'll be doing, these are trusted formulas that give approximate damage projections based off tested data to come up with the numbers for the equation. Not going to re-explain floor since others have already done so, but felt it was needed to expand on what 'a' and 'b' stood for given the prior topic that spawned this one.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

*snip*

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You guys suggested I ask around and I educate myself if I was still having trouble understanding it. I did exactly that so what's your deal?

eh, i had said as much before but my post but deleted it because i was feeling venomous considering trisscar seems to have a reading or internet disability that prevents him/her from reading peoples responses in the blue mage thread about floor or the 2-3 links others have provided in this thread, or for the rest of the damage equation for that matter.

the deal is your question had been answered several times in this thread and the previous thread, or easily located on the regular or even bg wiki, when it comes to floor could have been goggled that as well.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

You guys suggested I ask around and I educate myself if I was still having trouble understanding it. I did exactly that so what's your deal?

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Probably that nothing in this thread is any different than what is on the damn links people gave you upwards of 8 times throughout that prior topic? Maybe the fact you are still saying things like "making it worth gearing for it" in your post which is similar to what you said also in prior topic? It isn't hard to click on a link, read over it and also click on other source/related links at the end of the articles to see the same damn thing everyone has posted in this tread explaining what each part of the equation means, where it comes from, how it is factored, and the order it goes in to reach the final total.

The only thing I see from your OP and several other responses is the fact you have a lack of patience in reading this source material then proceed to scrutinize it like it is something someone randomly pulled out of their ass to inconvenience you. It baffles me why someone comes in and questions information that has been worked on since around 2005 onward and has been reliable within an expected margin of error because there is still a variable that people haven't been able to pinpoint to an absolute.

Here you are asking questions like "What is this" or "what is that" and when someone gives you an answer you reply with "well why is it that way" or "how can people know that for fact." It isn't like the equations are baseless with no testing or trending with scrutiny by those willing to take the time to test it. Don't need someone coming in with the attitude that swapping gear is wasted effort when years of data and various personal experiences back up the statement. Just says to me and others who took the time to link you to the information in the first place that you've got a vendetta since the consensus inconveniences you without someone holding your hand since reading, clicking links, and understanding directions is too hard? This didn't even warrant another thread since links to the information were provided to you.

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Originally Posted by Elitist Asshats

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

*snip nonconstructive post*

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Originally Posted by Nala

*snip nonconstructive post*

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This might come to as surprise to ya'll but not everyone can learn the same things at the same rate as everyone else. Me, despite the fact I passed Math with all A's, Math was always the absolute weakest subject. So, naturally I'll need more instruction and more time to make sense of the WS equations than you would.

Since the beginning of this thread I have now came to a better understanding of the equations, although some parts of it (specifically pDIF) I don't understand yet despite the fact that Motenten explained it so well and so patiently.

Now I may have explained that it was because of the earlier thread that caused me to begin this thread but that thread isn't the subject of this thread. What is the subject of this thread is WS equations. If you aren't going to weigh in on the subject of the thread than why are you even posting here?

Edit to add: In case you haven't notice I haven't been active on the other thread. I been here 'educating myself'. But hey, it's not like you cared anything about that. Only thing you apparently care about is making yourself appear better than others.

lol nonconstructive, i gave you them last thread and you failed at reading. either the ability to comprehend words or translate the text into those words in your head and make something of it.