[dev1102] So what is the Ultimate Spell for RDM?

BLM has Meteor under Elemental Seal. SCH has BOTH Embrava and Kaustra under their 2 Hour. WHM apparently has Arise coming.

*Crickets*

I don't want a spell that's shackled to a Job Ability.

It'll be an enfeeble locked to Saboteur no doubt. /sigh

RDM IS jack of all trades not a specilist

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Originally Posted by YRUdamasta

RDM IS jack of all trades not a specilist

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Spare us this nonsense. If nothing else RDM are supposedly masters of Enfeebling so point = Void.

That said, that really has no relevance, a Jack of all Trades can spell get an ultimate spell/ability.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I don't want a spell that's shackled to a Job Ability.

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Nobody does. When everybody is unhappy, however, balance is achieved.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

BLM has Meteor under Elemental Seal. SCH has BOTH Embrava and Kaustra under their 2 Hour. WHM apparently has Arise coming.

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I'd worry more about the list of things that need to be fixed for RDM before asking for an ultimate spell.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'd worry more about the list of things that need to be fixed for RDM before asking for an ultimate spell.

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Agree with this. They need to fix the damn job already.

Watch, SE will make "Gravity III" as our super spell, castable only under Spontaneity.

An ultimate spell, so yay our usefullness if will turn into one spell show. Like it was said above rather see the job fixed and giving a real role in a group enviroment.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

It'll be an enfeeble locked to Saboteur no doubt. /sigh

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If that spell is an ultimate enfeebling spell, it would be fitting.
So.. how about Ultima as our ultimate spell? (Aoe) non-elemental damage that dispels all buffs, lowers all stats by 50% and inflicts all enfeebling effects. Enfeebling effects would resist as normal, although following the NEW resist system, not the immune-to-all resist system. (Combine it with /BLM Elemental Seal for added magic accuracy.)

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Originally Posted by ShadowViper

An ultimate spell, so yay our usefullness if will turn into one spell show. Like it was said above rather see the job fixed and giving a real role in a group enviroment.

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It has little to do with one spell defining RDM more the fact all mages so far have gained unique spells for their line bar RDM.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

If that spell is an ultimate enfeebling spell, it would be fitting.
So.. how about Ultima as our ultimate spell? (Aoe) non-elemental damage that dispels all buffs, lowers all stats by 50% and inflicts all enfeebling effects. Enfeebling effects would resist as normal, although following the NEW resist system, not the immune-to-all resist system. (Combine it with /BLM Elemental Seal for added magic accuracy.)

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True enough, but it'd more likely be Paralyze III to help on all the non-TP style melee attacks all 3 of them. :p

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

a Jack of all Trades can spell get an ultimate spell/ability.

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Kaustrava meteoarise:
-Level 99 under spontaneity or chainspell effect.
-Deals massive non-elemental damage to everyone between range.
-A phoenix appears from the ashes of the explosion and raises nearby party members, full hp with a temporary invincible effect, withouth weakened status and with a powerfull reraise, regen, regain and haste effect.
-In the case that you cast it consecutively with Chainspell active, the animation will vary and the range will be extended, multiple meteors will drop on the entire Vanadiel hitting everyone outside their mog house.

Known bugs:
-It is posible to exploit the chainspell effect on this spell and obtain drops of any monster by casting it from outside your mog house. We politely ask you to not exploit this bug or else you will be banned when we fix it in the next 2 years.

Thank you for understanding.

PS.- I'm bored <.<

Throw it in as ultima and have it do tier III to IV nuke damage and have it cause a - stat reduction to att, def, acc, mdef, and evasion. And yes make it actual work on things we would want it for "End game content"

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

BLM has Meteor under Elemental Seal. SCH has BOTH Embrava and Kaustra under their 2 Hour. WHM apparently has Arise coming.

*Crickets*

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RDM has Refresh II... sorry, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I was RDM main.

http://www.posters555.com/pictures/A...29d8d5d1_b.jpg

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'd worry more about the list of things that need to be fixed for RDM before asking for an ultimate spell.

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Very true I'd rather see rdm fixed a bit before we get an ultimate spell

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Originally Posted by Ladyofdragons

Very true I'd rather see rdm fixed a bit before we get an ultimate spell

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That's kinda the point... RDM isn't in good enough shape to get an Ultimate Spell? Oh sorry the job doesn't really function so we can't even consider it like other jobs? It's too retarded to be treated equally...

I understand you are trying to be realistic, but honestly the stance is self-defeating. SE doesn't need to give anyone anything else until they actually fix all of their jobs OR at least getting them in shape where it can receive an ultimate spell.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

RDM has Refresh II... sorry, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I was RDM main.

http://www.posters555.com/pictures/A...29d8d5d1_b.jpg

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I think most know that now, to be honest I think people post here out of principle now not because they think SE even read this section, or will ever listen.

Guys, RDM is OP...you guys get to <Chainspell> <Warp II> <party> & afk <leech>es.
That's how Tanaka-san plays his RDM.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

It has little to do with one spell defining RDM more the fact all mages so far have gained unique spells for their line bar RDM.

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I still say the RDM fixes should come in first, then we can worry about an ultimate spell.

To stay with the topic, this is my contribution:

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Red Trance
Lv. 99
Requires Chainspell Effect
Consumes all MP
Self-target

Places you in a trance, temporarily increasing all your skills and proficiencies for the duration of Chainspell or until you run out of MP.

Red Trance slowly consumes the RDM's MP at X% per tick. +30 to all stats. Magic, sword and dagger proficiencies temporarily raised to A+ and temporarily capped. Grants access to all sword and dagger WS. Spells that are native to RDM cost no MP, and instead speed up the rate at which your MP is consumed by Red Trance. Spells that are gained through subjobs still cost MP and consume their normal amounts of MP AND speed up the rate MP is consumed by Red Trance.

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...I didn't say anything about it being balanced. I just wanted to contribute. =P

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

That's kinda the point... RDM isn't in good enough shape to get an Ultimate Spell? Oh sorry the job doesn't really function so we can't even consider it like other jobs? It's too retarded to be treated equally...

I understand you are trying to be realistic, but honestly the stance is self-defeating. SE doesn't need to give anyone anything else until they actually fix all of their jobs OR at least getting them in shape where it can receive an ultimate spell.

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My only thought is that they do have something planned but simply haven't got to it yet. They've been systematically moving through the jobs and tweaking stuff over the past few months.

I know .. it's optimistic, but what the hell it's spring.

Systematically, i dont feel is the right word for it. I feel like theyre drawing names from a hat at the moment, and rdm is stuck on the seam at the bottom. Still i too hope we can get something shiny as well as the fixes we can use. Its just a shame for the devs, damned if they do, damned if they dont. No matter what, unless the fixes are ridiculous, SOMEONE will have their panties in a bunch.

I think rather than an ultimate spell id rather have some super JA for that. Once again double-cast would be nice, 10 minute recast, 5 min durration, 2x nuke/heal potency for 2x mp cost. Sweet.

gogogo Amnesia!!

I'd be fine if they were given Reflect as their endgame spell, as the devs have already been considering implementing the spell.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

I'd be fine if they were given Reflect as their endgame spell, as the devs have already been considering implementing the spell.

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BLM x6 start casting Meteor on NM. RDM casts Reflect on RDM. NM steals the buffs of all players. NM reflects Meteor. NM fades away with a look of disappointment on his face.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

BLM x6 start casting Meteor on NM. RDM casts Reflect on RDM. NM steals the buffs of all players. NM reflects Meteor. NM fades away with a look of disappointment on his face.

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What NM are you referring to? In b4 woosh

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Originally Posted by Kristal

BLM x6 start casting Meteor on NM. RDM casts Reflect on RDM. NM steals the buffs of all players. NM reflects Meteor. NM fades away with a look of disappointment on his face.

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Impressive, never known Reflect to reflect AoE.

Most rdms agree that the jobs usefullness has diminished greatly. I see recommendations all the time of new spells and new abilities yes cool sounding as they may be, such as reflect, but does that change the issues we have. The problem with the job is it lacks a role. With 20 jobs and only 18 spots in a full group a jack of all trade doesn't usually fit since you will have more defined roles in those 18 spots. Whm is the healer, blm the nuker, SCH the fall back but has its uniqness with dots, yet what does rdm have.

ALL our enfeebs minus merits are given to other jobs the only spell we have thats another job can't use is Refresh 2 and really there are jobs that provide similar functions in a aoe manor. SE going to adjust enfeebling but how does that help rdm exactly just means jobs that you would bring anyhow will be able to to help with enfeebs. Unusual that we are the masters of enfeebling and enhancing and yet all our abilities lie single target, where other jobs that are masters of other usefulness are also capable of doing our tasks in AOE fashions. This is the role RDM should of been in from the beginning the group buffer and the groups crowd control, atleast then there would be a reason to bring a rdm to events especially with one such as legion on the way.

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Originally Posted by ShadowViper

The problem with the job is it lacks a role.

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The job in concept doesn't and should not have a singular role, but instead have several roles to choose from given the job's versatility. The problem is that we can't openly choose our roles because of shoddy role distribution. You buff support and the melee side gets dumped on, you buff melee and the support side gets dumped on. Sure, my petty side says "well, they (support) had theirs for close to six years, now it's our (melee) turn", but in the spirit of fairness both sides should be getting some sort of improvement.

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the only spell we have thats another job can't use is Refresh 2

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Considering RDM borrows from other jobs, this is not surprising nor a bad thing.

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This is the role RDM should of been in from the beginning the group buffer and the groups crowd control

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You want to take us back to where we were at lv75 instead of letting our job move forward. I get that it's easier to get invited as support, but we've already had to put up with that since the cap was 75. I don't want RDM to go back to what it was then.

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This is the role RDM should of been in from the beginning the group buffer and the groups crowd control

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That's BRD and partially BLM (crowd control). At no point in FFXI's history did RDM ever get an aoe buff nor and aoe crowd control ability. The only party support ability RDM's ever had is Refresh, Haste and Cure IV. That's it, nothing else. WHM is the better support, BLM the better crowd control and BRD the better buffer. RDM's only got put into the party support role because WHM's had become scarce for XP pt's back in 04 and RDM was the next best thing.

SE needs to add new abilities and spells, buff out our enfeebling capacity and self buffing capacity, exactly as they stated they would.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Impressive, never known Reflect to reflect AoE.

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Don't apply logic to silly nonsense >_<

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The job in concept doesn't and should not have a singular role, but instead have several roles to choose from given the job's versatility. The problem is that we can't openly choose our roles because of shoddy role distribution. You buff support and the melee side gets dumped on, you buff melee and the support side gets dumped on. Sure, my petty side says "well, they (support) had theirs for close to six years, now it's our (melee) turn", but in the spirit of fairness both sides should be getting some sort of improvement.
Considering RDM borrows from other jobs, this is not surprising nor a bad thing.
You want to take us back to where we were at lv75 instead of letting our job move forward. I get that it's easier to get invited as support, but we've already had to put up with that since the cap was 75. I don't want RDM to go back to what it was then.

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Simple MMO mechanics when a job doesn't fit in a role because its too diverse its usually not used. Regardless of where they buff are ability if we dont have a role in the group we aren't going to get invited for most events.

Yes we were never the aoe crowd control but we should have been on the Magic side not blm, we are the enfeebling specialist NOT blm. SCH too borrows from both jobs yet is more desierable for more events than RDM. Why cause it role is truly to be back up to either sides and is the DOT specialist (dmg/healing). RDM is suppose to be the enfeebling and enhancing specialist yet all our enfeebs minus merits are capable of being done by other jobs and most our enhancing is self target only, even sch is beter in these areas because they are capable of AOE'n most the spells even thought it doesn't get them natively.

At 75 we were close enough to the main jobs we are "borrowing" from that we could help support and fill in those roles, now that lvs have increased that gap has gotten bigger and SCH has stayed closer to those jobs, which is where it should be. As for taking the job back to where the job was at 75 as a support then yeah, look at our main skills - enfeebling and enhancing - these are support skills not dd not healing yet again because we got so focused on "borrowing" from other jobs we have falling behind other jobs in both those areas because we don't get spells that show that we are the specialist for those fields.

Now that jobs and roles are being rebalanced we now have the chance to balance the job to whats already in game, we can't be main healers thats whms role, we can't be main nukers thats BLM, we are not dd and we are not tanks. So with the skill set that we have had from the beginning where is our role, back to enfeebler and enahcer who can help with healing/nuking/dd/tanking not replace them.

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Originally Posted by saevel

That's BRD and partially BLM (crowd control). At no point in FFXI's history did RDM ever get an aoe buff nor and aoe crowd control ability. The only party support ability RDM's ever had is Refresh, Haste and Cure IV. That's it, nothing else. WHM is the better support, BLM the better crowd control and BRD the better buffer. RDM's only got put into the party support role because WHM's had become scarce for XP pt's back in 04 and RDM was the next best thing.

SE needs to add new abilities and spells, buff out our enfeebling capacity and self buffing capacity, exactly as they stated they would.

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RDM was always used as support mainly for refresh and haste, it was also always used as the back up healer. It was extremely rare for you to be asked to come cause we need an enfeebler, rarer to be asked to come as a nuker and non existent to come to melee. Yes I hated being that 3 spell mage stuck in an endless cycle of refresh/haste and thats why having AOE versions of most of our enhancing spells would be a nice change it would allow us to do more and be benificial to the group giving a true desire to have a rdm in group. Most our Self casting enhancing stack with bards songs and we have some enhancing abilties that even bards dont get.

Yes we started taking over the roles of healer with WHMs in shortage and because with our endless mp pool and fast cast ability we could keep up with healing just as well as a whm this again is why SE should never give RDM cure 5 to prevent this from happening again.

As for crowd control yes thats partially brds ability, bard though can't AOE para, silence, grav, ..... RDM SHOULD be able to do all this. BLM yes got breakga and sleepga but why that never made sense we are the enfeebling specialist not blm, blm got AOE nukes (should have bioga and aoe dark based spells) just as WHM got aoe healing and divine spells since thats what those jobs specialize in. Yet, both these jobs step all over our main focus of enfeebling and enhancing and get AOE of that too. What makes more sense sending in your main heal into AOE dmg range to buff your party or send in the RDM (who should be melee'n anyhow to be maximizing his role) to do the same buff.
Again just because it never has been that way doesn't mean it can't be changed and fixed now especially since thats what SE is doing anyhow with rebalancing.

We need more self buffing capacity, are you serious. Giving us more SELF anything isn't going to help us in a party situation and this goes back to the issue SE had with RDM being too OP we were able to buff ourselves into being self sufficient and able to solo things that we were most likely never meant to, fun as it was doesn't help us for any group event. As for abilities no again, any ability would come with a nasty timer and we were designed to be able to jump from one action to another (thus lack of a ton of abilities). An ability I have seen mentioned for years from rdm would be allowing us to cast a self target buff on others (similiar to sch) if this was done then at best it would be 3 min timer, what would the point be so every few minutes you get to reapply that buff on another player? And again the idea of rdm being able to quickly adapt a situation and cast whats needed again would no longer apply.

We need maor Gain-CHR if we're going to charm the SE devs...

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Originally Posted by Kristal

We need maor Gain-CHR if we're going to charm the SE devs...

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Boost-CHR (we should be buffing everyone before a WHM who should be focused on healing)

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RDM was always used as support mainly for refresh and haste, it was also always used as the back up healer

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Two spells do not a specialize make, which has been my point the entire time. We are not and never were a buffing job, we had two spells, one that restores a precious commodity at the time (MP) and the other that made melee's fight better and exponentially scaled with other buffs. That's it, nothing else, Cure IV is only enough in low damage merit parties on anything of HNM status it's just not enough, never has been, and this fact become painfully clear after level 80.

We're not invited for enfeebling because SE has gimped the crap out of enfeebling magic and refused to introduce new spells that are actually functional. Break is just a short duration earth based sleep and about as useful, addle is nerfed on HNMs, and that's it. I've said it many times and I'll keep saying it, SE needs to give us newer enfeebles that actually do something. Lower the monsters stats, lower it's TP gain, lower it's offensive damage potential and such. Give us a move that temporarily locks out the target's TP moves for a short period of time, make the target gain immense resistance after the first use that slowly tapers off over 5min.

When I state self buffing I'm referring to the ability to alter our stats to optimize for one role over another. Temper is +5~20% DA not 20% static, the RDM needs a 500 skill build and I've met very few who have, maybe it'll increase who knows. We need other spells similar to Temper that give us +FC, +Cure Pot, +MAB, ect. They should overwrite each other so as not to be overpowering. This would allow a RDM to adjust and tailor their stats to the specific role their performing.

And seriously, if you want +15~25 of a stat ask the WHM or the BRD, good luck.

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Originally Posted by ShadowViper

Simple MMO mechanics when a job doesn't fit in a role because its too diverse its usually not used. Regardless of where they buff are ability if we dont have a role in the group we aren't going to get invited for most events.

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Because most players tunnel vision themselves to see one role per job, leaving jobs like RDM in the dark. There's a reason MMO design has moved in the direction of having hybrid classes that can put focus on one of several possible roles. It pisses less people off and opens up freedom of gameplay in group content. SE and RDM just need to be dragged into the new century of hybrid design and drop the BS.

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At 75 we were close enough to the main jobs we are "borrowing" from that we could help support and fill in those roles, now that lvs have increased that gap has gotten bigger and SCH has stayed closer to those jobs, which is where it should be. As for taking the job back to where the job was at 75 as a support then yeah, look at our main skills - enfeebling and enhancing - these are support skills not dd not healing yet again because we got so focused on "borrowing" from other jobs we have falling behind other jobs in both those areas because we don't get spells that show that we are the specialist for those fields.

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False. At 75 you brought a RDM if you needed heals+haste+refresh, needed CS+Stun or needed someone to help the BLM with crowd control in dynamis. Our swords mattered little, as did our nukes.

Again, you want the invites that come with having something very few people are willing to do (the number of people who rode the Refresh gravy train far outnumbered the people who would willingly level BRD). I don't want our job to go down that route again. Not without proper alternatives within RDM for the front liners and the melee camp.

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When I state self buffing I'm referring to the ability to alter our stats to optimize for one role over another. Temper is +5~20% DA not 20% static, the RDM needs a 500 skill build and I've met very few who have, maybe it'll increase who knows. We need other spells similar to Temper that give us +FC, +Cure Pot, +MAB, ect. They should overwrite each other so as not to be overpowering. This would allow a RDM to adjust and tailor their stats to the specific role their performing.

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I like this idea. I'd preffer JAs and modes instead of actual spells, but I wouldn't mind getting something that gave us more MAB or Cure Potency and such.

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Give us a move that temporarily locks out the target's TP moves for a short period of time

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This falls under absolutes. We need less of this and more of actual debuffs.

I was just throwing idea's out there. Also after that I said the monster should gain immense resistance that would taper off after 5 min, thus it would be impossible to spam that spell. You cast it and for a brief period of time, 5 ~ 15s maybe, the target wouldn't use TP moves. Gives a short breather to everyone and precious time to heal / remove status ailments or whatever. Again just an idea. I really want stat down spells better then the elemental enfeebles.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I like this idea. I'd preffer JAs and modes instead of actual spells, but I wouldn't mind getting something that gave us more MAB or Cure Potency and such.

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We need this in the "actual" spells Faith and Bravery (only one can be up), I definitely don't want JA's as there is no real need, and spells can gain the benefit of being improved on by more enhancing which is more suited to RDM.

Could be:

Faith
Increases Magical damage and accuracy.
Lv. 99 RDM

Magic Accuracy: 10~25
Magic Attack Bonus: 5~15

Bravery
Increases melee accuracy and attack.
Lv. 99 RDM

Accuracy: 5~15
Attack: 5~15%

While I think RDM should get more buffs for party members these two would fall in line with Temper and Enspells in that they can only augment the RDM's strength.

These can be later increased via gear change on cast, same with temper which I'd personally give a 5% Chance of Triple Attack on under the guise of Augments "Temper".

Personally I'd go along the line of RDM gaining semi-strong spells to fall in line with: Making themselves demi-gods while potentially adding a tier II weaker version in line with Phalanx II for party targetable Such as Temper II: 5~10% DA.

As for not much space left for new spells that's down to SE to remove said limitation, not work around it.

Now to add to what you said DH. Introduce a debuff the RDM casts that acts like DNC's sambas. Every melee who hits the monster would get a buff or their attacks would be modified in some fashion. This would fall perfectly in line with what SE said about making other people strong by debuffing the monster, but somehow I doubt they'll do this. I can dream.

SE said they wouldn't add stances or spells that buff one aspect of magic and reduce physical abilities or vice versa. They also stated they wouldn't want to add abilities or spells that add mutually exclusive enhancements to either physical or magic. SCH is the class that chooses between white or black magic speciality. RDM, SE said doesn't choose between white and black magic or physical, RDM was supposed to be able to access all of it simultaneously albeit weaker. So SCH gets stronger WHM spells and BLM spells because they have almost no physical prowess. Since RDM has better physical capabilities, we have weakened spells or whatever. So to sum up, SE would never implement a stance where a RDM's abilities in one aspect get boosted at the cost of another(i.e like dark arts/light arts/hasso-type abilities where Phys+/Magic- or Magic+/Phys-)