I think SE should make it a bit easier for us to /war.

Ever since thf got native dual wield /war has been a nice option as far as dmg output. And if we /nin all the time even when not truly needed it makes it a waist of a job trait imo. the big draw back of /war is that will take a lot of damage and we dont have much hp or def outside are high eva i have a gear set where im 25% haste and +40 eva for when i do pull hate /war but you can't dodge everything even with eva bonus 5 and full eva gear. I think thf should get something simuler to third eye and perfect counter. something to make us dodge the next 2-3 attacks i think that would make it easier to /war to raise are att to a high point which is the point of /war. it helps us over come the weakness of low att from being a 1hander and we take full advantage of are native dual wield trait and not stay stuck on /nin in fear of dieing.

THF/War and using dual wield seems like a waste to me. I understand why we all do it but simple logistics of it if you are /war and dual wielding your losing out on Fencer wich is a great bonus to THF especialy. I cant see how SE would ever give thf any other way to evade more than they alredy do. Sadly I have found /WAR not overly viable in most situations becuase of the high damage incured by THF. Short of using Defender wich i doubt you would our only option wound then be to use PDT gear. PDT is pretty widely available to most jobs not just PLDthese days. With the advent of Abysea THF has just become an outrageous DD job even with /NIN. Every time I try other subs they are fun but woefully get me killed in the end due to the lack of shadows. What SE really needsto do is rework the formula for Parrying. Only maybe 5-10% of FFXI players have capped parrying wich is a big bonus. Capped parry and capped evasion on THF would make /war more viable IMO.

Single-handing a dagger for Fencer isn't worth giving up the 10% Dual Wield native to THF, in addition to whatever bonuses are gained from the off-hand weapon.

From a DPS perspective, subbing WAR isn't worth giving up 25% Dual Wield from subbing NIN, either.

I do agree with you on the topic of Parrying. I capped it back in the lv75 era, but as it turns out it really meant nothing.

Fencer gives up 15% DW native o THF. we get DW2 at 90. But berserk +10% more DA doesnt and even fencer lol, doesnt make up for 10% more DW and /nin stagger procs.

Damage is hardly an issue much anymore on normal mobs. On things that matter, NMs, THF is often the tank. /nin offers the best damage midigitation we can ask for. If not on NMs sub war, damage doesnt matter with 2k+ hp and pretty good evasion rate in full DD gear on most anything. This complaint made sense a year ago, today however it is been made rater moot.

In abysea /NIN is more or less Necisary because the ability to do 3-4k eviserations is goingto get you hate if you didnt have it before. Id like to se a job ability that alows THFto lose enmity not just take someone elses.

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Originally Posted by Imole

In abysea /NIN is more or less Necisary because the ability to do 3-4k eviserations is goingto get you hate if you didnt have it before. Id like to se a job ability that alows THFto lose enmity not just take someone elses.

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An ability such as Enmity DouseBLM got.

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Originally Posted by Imole

In abysea /NIN is more or less Necisary because the ability to do 3-4k eviserations is goingto get you hate if you didnt have it before. Id like to se a job ability that alows THFto lose enmity not just take someone elses.

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I don't know about you but I've been tanking empyrean weapon nms in scars zones as thf/war since level 85 and onwards. What the hell are shadows good for except to lower dps? Your WHM has unlimited mp and thf evasion is high enough to not have to worry about shadows.

Unless your combat skills aren't capped and you're using crap like heart snatcher on your thf at 90. Then you have other things to worry about.

Depends if the mob can potentially one shot you or has en added effects, which while it's still missing most of the time, are still very highly annoying (enstun/enamnesia/enpetrify: annoying, endoom: screw you). /War should be safe for many Nms in Scars/Visions/anything not described above in Heroes however.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Depends if the mob can potentially one shot you or has en added effects, which while it's still missing most of the time, are still very highly annoying (enstun/enamnesia/enpetrify: annoying, endoom: screw you). /War should be safe for many Nms in Scars/Visions/anything not described above in Heroes however.

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Very true. Tanking Shaula or Alfard comes to mind Death Scissors can easily one shot you unless you gear for PDT or get HP Atmas. Serpentine Tail may be easier to survive, but it will toss you all over the place and make him a pain to tank.

I'd still go with /NIN at Lv90 purely for damage, even if I rarely cast shadows at all (unless it's one of those annoying mobs).

I like where we are DD wise in abyssea, if they translate that over into old world as well and make us the commanders of enmity, not just a guy who visits enmity once a week on principle. EG: THFs use TA for added damage now, hate caps means the enmity is worthless.

That being said, wouldn't it be sweet (Read: Broken) if collaborator was on a 15 second timer and alliance usable? Would go from TH whore to Enmity-Specialist over night.

/war is ok. but even with capped evasion your thf will get hit for some good dmg. with /nin you can easy solo any nm in abyssea who doesnt do magic alot or tp moves that go through the shadows. i dont think i would go /war ever unless you were at fafnir/niddy and trying to claim but who does that ever these days.and i dont see that much different with dps in abyssea as /war specially with GH atma. DW twilight dagger/tridagger and your dps will be crazy.

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Originally Posted by Imole

In abysea /NIN is more or less Necisary because the ability to do 3-4k eviserations is goingto get you hate if you didnt have it before. Id like to se a job ability that alows THFto lose enmity not just take someone elses.

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Trick attack?

Pretty sure its been shown THF Got Dual wield II at some point. between 85 and 90.

This entire thing is silly because the only thing stopping /war in normal situations from being the best by default is the fact that SE hasn't given us DW3 yet. If SE neglects to give us native DW3 by lv 99 THEN we can complain.

Trust me for DDing only thing /nin has on thf is being able to live longer in tight spots but most times you can manage without shadows and the 10% double attack makes up for the loss of dual wield with are DW2 native trait as long as you keep up zerk as much as you can.

you this speadsheet and you can see the defference on higher defmobs from the scars-heros zones and some NM's in vision
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0A...N2VkYWZk&hl=en

and here some pics of what i can do with /war and its a big deffernce. note i play on 360 atm
http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/smush2/

hmm 10% DA will never make up for the loss of 10% DW, even if you had 0 multi hits and 0 dw before the change.

What really makes /war better on hard nms is berserk + aggressor.

I didn't mean make up as in replace. What i ment was it makes it so that /nin won't have a complete run away and that allows beserk and aggresser to out duo /nin when Attack is uncapped which is on most mid to high lvl NM's

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Originally Posted by Smush

Trust me for DDing only thing /nin has on thf is being able to live longer in tight spots

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let me see, increased damage but you don't live long enough to get the kill, making the entire fight meaningless unless you at least managed a skill-up, or live to get the kill but the fight takes more time... decisions, decisions.

nope, gonna stick with /nin or /dnc, not for the DW increase (which is really what this thread is about regardless of the title) but for that survival thing. After all, all the damage and boosted TH in the world means nothing if you don't live to get the kill.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

let me see, increased damage but you don't live long enough to get the kill, making the entire fight meaningless unless you at least managed a skill-up, or live to get the kill but the fight takes more time... decisions, decisions.

nope, gonna stick with /nin or /dnc, not for the DW increase (which is really what this thread is about regardless of the title) but for that survival thing. After all, all the damage and boosted TH in the world means nothing if you don't live to get the kill.

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Even solo a THF doesn't need /NIN to survive. With a healer definitely doesn't. I don't even remember the last time I cast Utsusemi, and I play it daily. I /NIN for damage mostly.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

let me see, increased damage but you don't live long enough to get the kill, making the entire fight meaningless unless you at least managed a skill-up, or live to get the kill but the fight takes more time... decisions, decisions.

nope, gonna stick with /nin or /dnc, not for the DW increase (which is really what this thread is about regardless of the title) but for that survival thing. After all, all the damage and boosted TH in the world means nothing if you don't live to get the kill.

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This thread is not about dual wield im perfectly fine with how it is going on this trend we should end up with DW3 by 99. This is about having more surviveablitiy when you /war. Which is only really needed when you fight mobs outside abyssea really inside i tank Dragua on /war its pretty easy to live in abyssea with all the hp and whm's with almost unlimited mp. but outside i think we could use a bit more. whats the point in having native dual wield if your not even gonna use it.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

even if you had 0 multi hits and 0 dw before the change.

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Oops, this is wrong. I guess because i was really tired when i posted i ended up forgetting that DA affects ws damage. Doesn't matter much anyway, this dilemma doesn't exist since in reality we have higher grounds of both DW and DA.