Would be nice if something would augment these so you can use both Waltz's and Samba's when having either saber or fan dance activated
Augment Saber and Fan Dance
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03-15-2011, 01:49 AMautobotAugment Saber and Fan Dance
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03-15-2011, 01:58 AMKjara
technically a way there is... to have someone else use sambas while you use fan dance lol.
I think removing the "flaws" to both these JAs would kill the main purpose they were made for. Saber and Fan dance are DNC's way to have a "dual mode" like a lot of jobs nowadays do (Light/Dark Arts, Afflatus Solace/Misery, Innin/Yonin, Hasso/Seigan etc.) if you look at all those JAs they all have pros and cons, you can't just ask to have both with just gain and no pain. SE gave these JAs pro/cons to incentivate the player into switching as the situation requires, and add more strategy to the job. -
03-15-2011, 02:41 AMByrth
It is hard to argue that either JA is powerful enough to justify limiting playstyle while it is active. Recast is Hasso's only penalty, and SAM doesn't even get magic.
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03-15-2011, 05:46 AMGERMTo an extent yes its limited to the ability and what it does where you can either be offensive or defensive and not both at the same time but if you take into consideration for subjob for instance NIN being the most beneficial sub for most jobs especially front line a SAM is gimped here with both these job abilities, 3rd eye and utsemi over write each other and with hasso active it adds to the casting time instead decreaseing it with the x% haste effectQuote:
It is hard to argue that either JA is powerful enough to justify limiting playstyle while it is active. Recast is Hasso's only penalty, and SAM doesn't even get magic.
so in the interest of fairness and the ability to do one and not both its pretty evenly distributed in my opinion.. -
03-15-2011, 06:41 AMByrth
Saber Dance makes DNC/NIN play like MNK/NIN. For Dancer to play like Dancer, it needs the ability to Waltz and a reduction of JA delay.
Fan Dance is a conundrum. You gain PDT that decays on a hit-by-hit basis and keep the ability to Waltz, but lose your ability to provide Samba. So can Waltz, but won't need to, and you kill slower. If you don't have hate, then you don't need the PDT and might as well be providing Samba. I just use this like an oh-shit device unless I'm blood tanking or am afraid of one-shotting moves. -
03-16-2011, 12:12 PMDova_quetz
You could always just merit fan dance 5/5. saber dance is pointless. get haste gear and stop using daggers over 200 delay. with 5/5 fan dance u can put it up when things get shaky get your composure back click it off and go back to sambaing. its pretty simple. by time u lose all shadows and will to stay alive it'll be back up in no time! if youre halfway decent
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03-21-2011, 11:08 AMJefff
Not to belittle your idea, but I would agree with Dova_quetz. Not only could you use low-delay daggers, but DNC gets so much Haste+% and Dual Wield + gear these days, that Saber Dance is kind of outdated. Not to mention that you can get a pretty decent 2-4 hit dagger by doing easy magian trials. With haste samba active and any other form of haste on you, you shouldn't be able to spend TP fast enough. If you must throw up Fan Dance for a tight situation, with the magian OA2-4 dagger, you still shouldn't ever stop swinging.
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03-21-2011, 11:12 AMByrth
"Not stopping swinging" doesn't mean you're doing the best damage. Saber Dance is our second best DD JA (after Haste Samba).
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03-21-2011, 04:16 PMAlkalinehoeTry using Saber Dance added onto all that you just mentioned. Saber Dance is an excellent DDing ability that speeds up soloing or DDing in a party situation. Any DNC should have at least 1/5 unless you only solo NMs that absolutely require having Fan Dance up Full time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dova_quetz
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03-22-2011, 05:50 AMDova_quetzEven in a party fan dance is still better. If you ever been in a situation where things are getting shifty you can put it up and be self sufficient while everyone else tries to figure out why they leveled whatever job they are on. If you are saber dancing through parties or events/whatever and not tanking your tanks are gonna hate you. If you are tanking your mages are gonna due to lack of being able to waltz. Unless you wanna click it off. Which is a waste of a meritQuote:
Originally Posted by Alkalinehoe
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03-22-2011, 06:16 AMByrth
Just a reminder: Fan Dance blocks Sambas.
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03-22-2011, 09:32 AMDova_quetzits simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dova_quetz
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03-22-2011, 09:48 AMByrth
If that's the level of play that you and your friends are used to, feel free to use it that way. Please stop advising others though.
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03-22-2011, 10:02 AMDova_quetz
I'm not advising. I'm helping people put merits into more useful things. When DNC just do w/e cause it looks like a good idea is where loldnc and why bring a dnc comments get originated
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03-22-2011, 03:06 PMAlkalinehoeWhy are you getting hit during Saber Dance in the first place? And why do you need to cure yourself? Are you getting hit sooooo much that you need mages cure bombing you while you waltz yourself? You aren't making sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dova_quetz
Yes, Fan Dance is an extremely useful ability, not denying that at all! What I am aruging, is your seemingly choice to full time it. which is a poor choice. I understand that if things get hairy you should pop Fan Dance while the rest of your party gets their act together, but what about before then? You're just hurting your damage. I full time Saber Dance most of the time when I'm tanking because 1. I don't get hit often 2. When I do get hit, I let the healer heal me. They're there for a reason, no sense to waste 50+ TP curing myself when they can get back the lost MP in a few ticks. 3. It speeds things up, which is always good. -
03-22-2011, 03:06 PMAlkalinehoeContradiction much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dova_quetz
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03-23-2011, 04:27 AMJuxtaposition
Ahahaha wow, there are a lot of terrible Dancers in this thread.
It should be obvious to anyone who has been in even a remotely decent party in abyssea that DNC heals are nowhere near worth the TP they cost, given you have a decent healer in your party. This is due to DNC WS's actually being worth a damn in abyssea. Unless your party is in dire need of heals from some TP move that brought everyone down to red, save your TP for for damage.
You should never, EVER need to use Fan Dance in a party, ever. For starters, if locks you out of your two best JAs - Saber Dancer and Haste Samba, the latter is the only reason DNCs can justify their spot to begin with. If you aren't giving your party Haste Samba 24/7, you are little more than a gimpier THF without TH, tossing around irrelevant heals. If you manage to keep hate through extended Ni and Ichi recasts, enough that makes you wish you had Damage Reduction, I question your A) tanks, B) healers and C) the other DDs in your party.
To the people who don't need Saber Dance because they have plenty of Haste and Dual Wield already... Are you guys the type of people who 'upgraded' from their AF to the Tabin Jupon set at level 59-65? I mean, it is a higher level so it's obviously better than something that is a lower level, right! Sarcasm aside, Saber Dance's Double Attack gets better the more Haste/Dual Wield you have. To say don't need Saber Dance because you attack fast enough already is like a WAR saying they hit hard enough so they don't need to use Berserk.
Finally, OAT 2-4 times is garbage except for when the only thing you care about is hitting more often (spoilers: DEX dagger and STR dagger both beat it offhand!)
The end. -
03-23-2011, 11:00 AMautobot
While i can appreciate the one sided criticism between what is "loldnc" because someone uses one ability or the other, all it does is prove the narrow mindedness of those people. Also while it is true that the point of saber and fan dance is to change your playing ability on the fly to suit the needs of yourself or the party u are in, the point of my idea was to remove the restrictions that hinder a dnc ability to play at its fullest while using either one of those abilties.
I think its absurd for anyone to discredit saber dance because of whatever gear that is now obtainable. All that says is that you rarely use the ability and don't see the benefits of using that ability. True the OA2-4 times dagger can get you lots of tp, but at the cost of damage per swing and any additional status bonus that the offhanded weapon provides.
And as was stated, if you are using fan dance in a party that is "loldnc". There is absolutely no reason you should have to use fan dance in a party situation unless something goes wrong. If your other party members are doing their job you should be free to play however you want (most likely trying to put out as much dmg possible).
And seriously meriting fan dance 5/5 and saying throw it up and take it down all the time is senseless. the additional merits dont reduce the timer low enough for either dance to just keep switching it out.
My final thought on the idea is imagine this, saber dance+haste samba+dual wield enhance+haste and the ability to cure urself without having to take off saber dance. Or when ur tanking, fan dance+samba. -
03-23-2011, 11:15 AMJuxtaposition
I the idea behind the Dances and DNC in general is that you choose which roles you want to be in at the moment. Danceless DNC offers support and healing. Saber gives you DD in exchange for healing, whereas Fan gives you tanking for support. If you get rid of the downsides of Dances, then yeah, wow that would be so great. But that's obviously not what SE wants so...
Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled up first. -
03-23-2011, 11:19 AMDova_quetzBefore you quote me that i full time fan dance... go on head to the first page of this thread and read my post kthxQuote:
Originally Posted by Alkalinehoe
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03-23-2011, 12:12 PMAlkalinehoeGlad to see you're not fulltiming it, now answer the other questions I asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dova_quetz
kthx -
04-06-2011, 06:08 AMMarks
I like this idea, and see how it is a very delicate subject. Taking away the restrictions would defeat the "Dual Role" that someone else mentioned. It would also be quite overpowered in some aspects.
I think not being able to use Samba during Fan Dance is quite okay, as Sambas are not the most significant features DNC offers.
On the other hand, I feel Saber dance not giving access to ANY waltzes is quite limiting. While I can live without Saber Dance changing, it's nice to dream some days. If it were to change, I propose Saber Dance incurring either:
-An increased recast time to waltzes(amount can be tweaked to avoid imbalance)
-A direct healing done % decrease to all waltzes (again, can be tweaked)
-Simply allow Healing Waltz to be used during Saber Dance
I believe these would all be acceptable, and I feel getting blinded or paralyzed immediately after activating saber dance really discourages using anything but Fan Dance. These changes could make it more practical outside of Party Based Damage Dealing scenarios (which is best left to other strong geared DD).
*I would also like to point out that many people use DNC in different situations, and that the suggestions I provided were more catered for use when doing solo/duo jobs and anywhere a healer would not be able to full-time babysit you.
-That's what I think anywho. -
04-23-2011, 08:47 AMInfamousDS
I use both as situation dictates, when I need to hurt something I use Saber Dance (since everyone apparently forgot OA2-4 CANNOT proc on WS, while DA can). And I do use one, because its kewl and I like having nearly infinite TP to WS with my main hand and still recover for a cure if needed.
When I tank, I use Fan Dance in all of its 1-merit glory (just like Saber). Frankly, I never saw the real benefit of cast reduction on either. The recast is equal to the duration, and while faster is a situational "better" (I know I've wished I had shorter, but only rarely, and only Fan), I felt Accuracy and Evasion +9 was better on top of my capped No Foot Rise in tanking situations. I miss Sambas, but Waltz makes up for the loss since my goal isn't to DD, it's to outlive the monster until one of us dies in a blaze of glory. If I could Waltz while I was in Saber, I'd never take it off! As such, I don't think it should be implemented.
Merits are optional, spend them how YOU want. Don't like either option? Cap NFR and leave the rest of your group 2 blank and/or in Closed Position. Fan is for tanking, which means you aren't trying to kill and you have someone else to do that. Even in solo, living longer is better then going all out only to fizz and die. Ever soloed (literally soloed, no support, no dual box) an Om'Yovra? That is a glorious pain and Fan Dance was just fine @ 1 merit. If you don't believe I did it, you can look at my Soil Gorget on Quetzalcoatl and ask all of my 1 friend who hasn't quit or is friends of relatives how I got it.