Support style v.s DD sytle: Empy/Mythic make them different

First of all I'll have to admit that this is another Mythic QQ thread.....so if you don't like to read Mythic QQ thread can skip the rest :)

At this point of time, both Empy and Mythic gun are pure DD weapon(unless there are some hidden effect we haven't discover), and I believe Mythic is slightly weaker in most of the situations.

Armageddon's advantage: Higher WS dmg for both magical WS and physical WS, access to fire elemental WS dmg, ODD at 100 TP, huge AGI stat boost (which can come in handy sometimes for evasion/subtle blow/new dagger WS for lowmanning) etc.

Death Penalty's advantage: Lower delay, higher /ra DPS, QD dmg+50%(I think I see testing on forums somewhere says it's 50% instead of 35%), Leaden Salute dmg boost.

I recently just start playing again back from semi-inactive state, and did a bit of VW on this job, I'd have to say at this point of time, as a DD weapon, Mythic has really little chance to win Empy as a DD weapon, at least in VW(since nobody care about this job outside of VW anyways). Lower delay and higher DPS is pretty irrelevant with such massive amount of regain+save TP+wings. And WS frenquency is just way higher than QD frenquency that I don't see how QD dmg boost can catch up. My WS/QD ratio is usually around 3:1, and I have lowest QD recast time currently reachable already(40 sec), as a DD weapon I just don't see how Mythic can be as versatile and useful as empy.

A few situations I can think of that will favor QD dmg instead of WS dmg.....

1.QD kite solo.........who do this anymore? ;/ Solo or Duo on evasion jobs is way faster and less of a headache.

2.Fighting Ovni.....ppl spam QDs at lv 80 cap to kill it due to dmg resist, but now it's another DNC soloable mob.......

3.Pil's shield.....but do we really need it? I did Pil earlier, after 2 fireshots it's shield's gone.

4. Can't really think of anything else ;( Lowman when worried about TP feed? Does it even matter nowadays?

No matter how I look at it, Arma is just a more versatile DD weapon in most of the situations.

And instead of boosting Mythic WS dmg even further for barance, why not just give Mythic a different path? A supportive play style path instead of DD path?

For example, gives 3rd roll, enhance buff potency, gives QD debuff effect directly(like ice shot gives para, earth shot gives slow, thunder shot gives stun) etc. That way both weapon has it's use and players can choose which weapon to do depending on his play style etc. And that way no weapon is inferior than another.

I have to admit, the reason why I'm asking this is for personal reason, it's getting a bit frustrating. I'm a career COR since I started, 1.5 years ago I decided to do a long term goal in FFXI and started Mythic, that's before Empy even exist. I finished pretty much every other requirement except alexandrite, just been saving gil and wait until the update to see if price drops. At this point of time, alexandrite costs 12.5k on my server, heavy metal plate costs 150k. That's 375M for Mythic weapon and 225M for empyrean 95. No matter how I look at it, empyrean 95 is cheaper and faster to farm the gil for, and a better weapon in general. I'm tempted to build an empy 95 instead, but I got a LOT of help/free alexandrite from friends to just stop Mythic and waste other's effort. I also turned in all the alex I had since I have no mule to store them and I'm pretty sure I won't be interested in other weapons. I want to finish this long ass quest, but I also want it to be worthwhile, not just a Port Jeuno afk show off weapon(I don't like to afk in Jeuno anyways), or inferior DD weapon. I'm more of a fan of support/lowman style gameplay, and I love old school roll rotation/adjust position for rolls/enhance the debuff with QD etc, and not really a big fan of VW WS spam. If Dev team can make Mythic goes different path from Empy, it'd encourage me more to finish it. That way those who loves DD style can use empy to do dmg, and those who loves support style can do a Mythic.

Armageddon is better than Death Penalty.
Ukonvasara is better than Conqueror.
Almace is better than Murgleis and Tizona.
Masamune is better than Kogarasuaru.
Kannagi is better than Nagi.
List goes on.

As for your question, if they bring back challenging endgame where you can't pop temp items and spam WS without worrying about hate, then Death Penalty will probably start to shine again. As for right now? Better on that zilart Tiamat VWNM, and could likely be better on anything where you're using Last Stand, using Salute at 300%TP for double/triple damage aftermath, by the virtue of the base DMG not being as huge a factor due to it's massive WSC.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Armageddon is better than Death Penalty.
Ukonvasara is better than Conqueror.
Almace is better than Murgleis and Tizona.
Masamune is better than Kogarasuaru.
Kannagi is better than Nagi.
List goes on.

As for your question, if they bring back challenging endgame where you can't pop temp items and spam WS without worrying about hate, then Death Penalty will probably start to shine again. As for right now? Better on that zilart Tiamat VWNM, and could likely be better on anything where you're using Last Stand, using Salute at 300%TP for double/triple damage aftermath, by the virtue of the base DMG not being as huge a factor due to it's massive WSC.

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The point isn't about this weapon being stronger than another, the point is to create a new way of playing the job with the weapon. Just like how Apoc isn't best DD weapon, but it's best investment for the job due to it's utility.

There's no way DP can do more dmg for Last Stand than Arma, Arma has too much AGI boost, and AGI is 100% mod. Aftermath and higher /ra DPS doesn't really matter that much when you 2 hit in VW and spam wings. According to the enmity testing blog, QD still follows usual enmity formula, so if enmity is an issue, WF is still your best bet. Instead of boosting Mythic's DD ability, may as well boost it's support ability and create new ways of playing the job(like Apoc to DRK)

1) Where did I say Last Stand would be stronger with Death Penalty?
2) Where did I say I was only talking about voidwatch? I gave mention of one perticular NM, and then made a general statement unrelated to that NM (and voidwatch). Sorry I didn't specify "outside voidwatch as TP damage isn't very relevent during voidwatch", I didn't feel the need to state the obvious.

You asked what use Death Penalty has, and I told you: On something where you're using Last Stand, using Leaden for just x2/x3 dmg procs (suggesting TP phase damage is relevent, which probably meant not voidwatch). Your last stand will do a less damage, but with better /ra DPS, combined with 2x/3x damage and stronger Quick Draws, you'll probably do more damage overall.

Just work on the empy.
I know it sucks to have a half finished weapon, but I think the worst thing they can do is elevate a Mythic so that it is a requirement for a certain playstyle. The price of admission is too great on those weapons.

What I'd prefer to see and what will likely happen is that ToAU areas will be re-modded so that alexandrite will fall more readily (much like dynamis changes have greatly increased ancient currency availability). People will then have the impetus to finish Mythics if they are interested. Many folks are doing that with relics these days even though they aren't necessarily the best. Its just that now its a weapon people can conceivably finish in a reasonable amount of time without screwing over a linkshell to do it.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

1) Where did I say Last Stand would be stronger with Death Penalty?
2) Where did I say I was only talking about voidwatch? I gave mention of one perticular NM, and then made a general statement unrelated to that NM (and voidwatch). Sorry I didn't specify "outside voidwatch as TP damage isn't very relevent during voidwatch", I didn't feel the need to state the obvious.

You asked what use Death Penalty has, and I told you: On something where you're using Last Stand, using Leaden for just x2/x3 dmg procs (suggesting TP phase damage is relevent, which probably meant not voidwatch). Your last stand will do a less damage, but with better /ra DPS, combined with 2x/3x damage and stronger Quick Draws, you'll probably do more damage overall.

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At this point of time the situation of none VW and need to shoot stuff doesn't even exist, and we don't know if it will in the future. So it's not very reliable, and even if it does, Arma can still get the job done since both are pure DD weapons. Again, it's not about this weapon being stronger than that weapon etc.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Just work on the empy.
I know it sucks to have a half finished weapon, but I think the worst thing they can do is elevate a Mythic so that it is a requirement for a certain playstyle. The price of admission is too great on those weapons.

What I'd prefer to see and what will likely happen is that ToAU areas will be re-modded so that alexandrite will fall more readily (much like dynamis changes have greatly increased ancient currency availability). People will then have the impetus to finish Mythics if they are interested. Many folks are doing that with relics these days even though they aren't necessarily the best. Its just that now its a weapon people can conceivably finish in a reasonable amount of time without screwing over a linkshell to do it.

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Well just look at relic GA v.s empy or Mythic GA, or relic scythe v.s other DRK weapons, or relic instrument v.s empy instrument, they work very differently and provides different play style, it's already happened, that certainly play style and situations needs relic class weapon. They're used differently and not just pure DD weapon. Even pure DD job like WAR DRK utility weapon, why can't hybrid job like COR having a supportive weapon too?

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

What I'd prefer to see and what will likely happen is that ToAU areas will be re-modded so that alexandrite will fall more readily (much like dynamis changes have greatly increased ancient currency availability). People will then have the impetus to finish Mythics if they are interested. Many folks are doing that with relics these days even though they aren't necessarily the best. Its just that now its a weapon people can conceivably finish in a reasonable amount of time without screwing over a linkshell to do it.

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It's not like giving Mythic QD debuff effects will be anything game breaking......other jobs can do slow/para/stun/ as well, it's unlikely that it'd make Mythic a requirement(on the other hand empy is pretty much a requirement for VW now)

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Originally Posted by Afania

At this point of time the situation of none VW and need to shoot stuff doesn't even exist,

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Dynamis. Ranged DPS is better than Melee. Dynamis and Voidwatch are currently the only two "endgame" options really that require a decent sized group (I'm not talking about coin farming or zone wins, talking about arch boss farms for the ra/ex. Some zones will need at least 8 or more people for most groups). They are reviving Nyzul Isle with Lv99 content. They said they planned to revive Limbus and Salvage in the future also. Just because the only two "endgame" events at the moment are Dynamis and Voidwatch, doesn't mean it will stay that way.

You seem to be looking for a reason to justify finishing your weapon, and it sounds like you really want to. So when I give you a valid one, why counter it? Stop sulking, and get on with it.

If its not game breaking its not likely motivational enough to get people to make a mythic. Adding debuffs to QD isn't likely to make most CORs want to hammer down that alexandrite requirement. I think they have to lessen the stick rather than build up the carrot if you ask me.

I'd rather have an ability that makes QD add debuffs than make it part of obtaining the hardest to obtain "Ultimate" weapon.

If you're complaining because Death Penalty is weak, then you shouldn't just be focusing on death penalty because most mythics are crap as well. Armageddon might be better than Death Penalty on things like Voidwatch where you spam wildfire, but Death Penalty is still a very good gun, and should be king anywhere where you're using ranged DPS with Last Stand more.

Compare that to other mythics now. Terpsichore? WS is crap. Step Accuracy is lol, and Augments steps appears to currently do nothing we can see. Ryunohige gives a boost to drakesbane, but that's it. It's bonus to jumps are completely worthless because you use spirit/soul jump almost all the time. Tizona, Murglais, Liberator, Gastraphetes and Nagi are just complete jokes. No one would use Tupsimati or Laevateinn over a magian staff. Canwenhan is a macro piece to increase song duration.

Maybe that will put Death Penalty into perspective. Mythics need a hell of a lot of work, but the fact is Death Penalty is one of the better ones. So quit your Death Penalty whining. If you're gonna whine, whine about all mythics.

They already said they're going to enhance QD with native debuffs.
I don't think DP needs any kind of revamp, it's already a very good weapon, a weapon that allows you a different play style. On Armageddon you're forced to use Tact/Miser for the WF spam, while with DP you can focus on more dps(even with more direct damage increase rolls).
Situational? Yes. But everything in this game is.
You want to get your DP? Go ahead, it's very good and neat as hell with that look of portable cannon(a very important factor if you ask me).

The only complaints I really have are just that Leaden Salute is Darkness elemental so on some VW NMs is just absolute crap due to their resists; and that unless I can dispel an effect from a mob Dark Shot will not give me the +20% damage boost using af3+2 feet.

Other than those 2 minor complaints, I still love Death Penalty and am very glad I upgraded it. Does it make me the end all/be all DD? No, but I am still able to do a lot of damage and be useful in VW fights.

I've seen TL using his Death Penalty and it does great damage between the QD and LS augments. He's right that is sucks against dark based mobs (as Armageddon does against Fire based mobs). The Dark shot thing should be fixed too. I wish they would add damage back to light and dark shot and give enfeeble qualities to all the elemental shots:
Fire - Addle
Earth - Slow
Water - Poison
Ice - Paralyze
Wind - Silence
Thunder - Stun

But I'd rather see Death Penalty stay as is and make the requirements more in line with other relics/empy's. I don't know who really works on game design and balance, but at times they do a really poor job. Personally if I was designing "ultimate weapons" i'd give people 3 paths: farming/crafting path, quest path and NM path. And get someone that knows about math that can make each path roughly equivalent time sink wise.

Making Dark Shot do damage would be kind of a big deal. One of the benefits of armageddon now is the synergy of vulcan's staff + fire shot + wildfire. DP with that same synergy of pluto's + dark shot + salute would be great.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

If you're complaining because Death Penalty is weak, then you shouldn't just be focusing on death penalty because most mythics are crap as well. Armageddon might be better than Death Penalty on things like Voidwatch where you spam wildfire, but Death Penalty is still a very good gun, and should be king anywhere where you're using ranged DPS with Last Stand more.

Compare that to other mythics now. Terpsichore? WS is crap. Step Accuracy is lol, and Augments steps appears to currently do nothing we can see. Ryunohige gives a boost to drakesbane, but that's it. It's bonus to jumps are completely worthless because you use spirit/soul jump almost all the time. Tizona, Murglais, Liberator, Gastraphetes and Nagi are just complete jokes. No one would use Tupsimati or Laevateinn over a magian staff. Canwenhan is a macro piece to increase song duration.

Maybe that will put Death Penalty into perspective. Mythics need a hell of a lot of work, but the fact is Death Penalty is one of the better ones. So quit your Death Penalty whining. If you're gonna whine, whine about all mythics.

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My main point isn't about "This weapon is weak, that weapon is weak, QQ". Plenty of ppl QQ about relic being too weak after empy came out, so SE buffed it, then time for empy owners to QQ, what's the point? One weapon will be stronger than another no matter what. My point is about why having 2 (or 3+ for some jobs) pure DD weapons for certain jobs? Even the the "macro piece to increase song duration" dagger is a utility weapon.

QD at this point of game is a pure DD ability(besides the none-dmg ones), a weapon buffing QD dmg is a pure DD weapon, what's the point to have 2 pure DD weapons for a job(especially this job isn't even pure DD job to begin with)? For a hybrid job like COR, I think we need a weapon to buff the supportive side as well, like how BRD gets 3rd song from empy, song duration from Mythic, dmg from relic dagger, and all songs+ from relic. They have all the relic/empy/Mythic functions differently, so does WAR DRK etc, weapons for different function. So why we only have access to DD weapons when we're not even pure DD job?

There are 3 types of Ultimate weapons in this game, but only one weapon can be the best DD weapon, may as well make the other 2 kind more of a utility weapon.

I'm not countering about you telling me certain situations when Mythic can pull ahead, that's not even the main point to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

If its not game breaking its not likely motivational enough to get people to make a mythic. Adding debuffs to QD isn't likely to make most CORs want to hammer down that alexandrite requirement. I think they have to lessen the stick rather than build up the carrot if you ask me.

I'd rather have an ability that makes QD add debuffs than make it part of obtaining the hardest to obtain "Ultimate" weapon.

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None of the Mythic or even relic is game breaking. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I think that's how it should be, nothing game breaking and not a requirement, but serves as long term goal in this game for ppl to try, and added a nice touch that changes something for the job. We don't need 2 or 3 pure DD weapons for jobs. Ppl who loves spamming high dmg WS can use empy, but it'd be more interesting to give ppl who loves to be BRD 2.0 or RDM 2.0 another option...that's just variety and makes the game more interesting, and no weapon will be inferior than another.

Whats the point in having 2 pure DD weapons? The fact that one will excel in certain circumstances, and one will excel in the other. Having access to both means you are covered for all situations.

Gandiva will beat Yoichinoyumi on fodder content like meriting and dynamis. Yoichinoyumi will beat Gandiva on high end content, especially where hate is an issue. Bravura will beat Ukonvasara on hard content where -damage taken is important. Ukonvasara will beat Bravura on things where that isn't important. Apocalypse will be much the same as Bravura - Beating Ragnarock at times when -damage taken is important, and losing when it's not.

At least Corsair falls into this catagory - having Armageddon and Death Penalty available to cover different situations. Look at thief - Vajra, Twashtar and Mandau are all fundamentally the same with the same purpose. The same can be said for Amanomurakumo and Masamune. And for Gungnir and Rhongomiant. And Glanzefaust and Verethragna.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Whats the point in having 2 pure DD weapons? The fact that one will excel in certain circumstances, and one will excel in the other. Having access to both means you are covered for all situations.

Gandiva will beat Yoichinoyumi on fodder content like meriting and dynamis. Yoichinoyumi will beat Gandiva on high end content, especially where hate is an issue. Bravura will beat Ukonvasara on hard content where -damage taken is important. Ukonvasara will beat Bravura on things where that isn't important. Apocalypse will be much the same as Bravura - Beating Ragnarock at times when -damage taken is important, and losing when it's not.

At least Corsair falls into this catagory - having Armageddon and Death Penalty available to cover different situations. Look at thief - Vajra, Twashtar and Mandau are all fundamentally the same with the same purpose. The same can be said for Amanomurakumo and Masamune. And for Gungnir and Rhongomiant. And Glanzefaust and Verethragna.

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The difference between DP and Arma is even smaller than some of those you listed above. Relic GA and scythe is a defensive weapon, not 100% focusing on dmg. Gandiva is a bow focusing on pure dmg, while relic bow and gun is focusing on enmity-(still defensive). Either way, unless theres more mob added into the game that QD dmg is very very important(like super insane unblockable TP move that you can't feed TP, or Pil shield 2.0), the difference between DP and arma will remain small.

I think its hard enough to get a foothold as a COR into the DD scene, that making something that turns us into BRD 2.0, would kill the job for me.

I've always played COR as a hybrid support DD job. If they gave us a gun that was crap for DD but gave MP/enfeebling QD/cure pot or whatever some people envision this jobs roll, I'd likely have to quit. Seeing "Support gun COR onry" requests (and you know that would happen given JP love of COR/WHM playstyle) would be unpalatable.

I'm fine if others want to play COR that way. But I don't want to be pidgeon holed anymore than COR already is. The nice thing about COR has always been that no one really cared what subjob you came as. They just wanted your buffs and you could choose to support the party beyond that in any way you though was best. At times that was as COR/WHM, but often /DNC, /RNG, /WAR, /SAM would work out just as well.

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Originally Posted by Afania

The difference between DP and Arma is even smaller than some of those you listed above. Relic GA and scythe is a defensive weapon, not 100% focusing on dmg. Gandiva is a bow focusing on pure dmg, while relic bow and gun is focusing on enmity-(still defensive). Either way, unless theres more mob added into the game that QD dmg is very very important(like super insane unblockable TP move that you can't feed TP, or Pil shield 2.0), the difference between DP and arma will remain small.

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Read the last paragraph of my last post.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

I think its hard enough to get a foothold as a COR into the DD scene, that making something that turns us into BRD 2.0, would kill the job for me.

I've always played COR as a hybrid support DD job. If they gave us a gun that was crap for DD but gave MP/enfeebling QD/cure pot or whatever some people envision this jobs roll, I'd likely have to quit. Seeing "Support gun COR onry" requests (and you know that would happen given JP love of COR/WHM playstyle) would be unpalatable.

I'm fine if others want to play COR that way. But I don't want to be pidgeon holed anymore than COR already is. The nice thing about COR has always been that no one really cared what subjob you came as. They just wanted your buffs and you could choose to support the party beyond that in any way you though was best. At times that was as COR/WHM, but often /DNC, /RNG, /WAR, /SAM would work out just as well.

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Just play the style you like, why do you worry about having utility/supportive weapons? I see those weapons only makes the job more useful, it's not like DD weapon(Arma) is taken away if there's a supportive weapon. If you're in a situation needs DD, use DD weapon, if you're in a situation needs debuff/cures w/e, it'd be nice if we can have the option. It's the variety that matters.

It's not like COR doesn't have access to decent DD weapon already. And this job IS used as main DD in certain VW fights, to a point that you need multiple in a pt sometimes. I'm not a big fan of do 2 rolls then spam WS over and over again(or else I'd lv SAM ages ago), would actually love a situations where roll rotation and use QD for support/crowd control like old days comes back. At least even though this job is WS spamming machine in VW, I still played it that way regardless, nothing to complain about really.

I dont have a mythic, but I think mythic should always be the best weapon for the job. Owning a mythic means you have decided to get that jobs specific super weapon. With that said, all mythic weapons should somehow support there job, and in the most parts they do, but this needs to be improved. Adding occ2-3 was nice, but not really thought out.

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

I dont have a mythic, but I think mythic should always be the best weapon for the job. Owning a mythic means you have decided to get that jobs specific super weapon.

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No, I am fine with mythic not being the best 100% of the time as almost nothing in FFXI is. I will again say that DP is very close to (either just barely ahead or behind) Arma; and in the situations where it is not great I now have Last Stand to use + a nice bonus to QD damage to help me keep up with damage.