Offhand for almace

OA1-2 Khanda or OA2-4 Khanda? which would do best?
im sure the questions been posted before.

The answer was Str Shamshir.

somehow i dont think str and attack is going to beat out OAT and OA2-4 for almace :/ i could be wrong tho. im sure someones tested the numbers for it.

ODD and both suck for overall damage say sup

I personally use the Double Attack Khanda and love it. BLU/war can easily hit 30+% DA and 8% Triple Attack with it, which tops the OAT, plus it has much higher damage. Though I am working on a STR sword on the side.

STR Shamshir is the only option. Double Attack and OA2 fall behind due to their delays, and the OA2's base damage. OA4 isn't even worth mentioning.

The attack and STR from a fire shamshir is very valuable.

DEX Shamshir is suitable for situations where your ACC is horrible, but those situations hardly exist. Even in voidwatch, Stalwart's and food will be enough fix that issue, often just the stalwarts.

Ephemeron, I would argue, is the strongest offhand however.

Is the gap between the STR sword and the DA one really that large when gearing specfically for CDC spamming?

I mean the slightly increased delay (22 with the DA sword, it doesnt receive the +12 extra delay that the OAT ones get) pushes my TP per hit spot on to 5 TP a swing, which in a way is nice for rounding getting to 100% reliably. In most situations where I do go CDC spam I usually sub WAR, so berserk really covers any lack of attack my BLU has along with appropriate food / Stalwarts etc. +11% Double attack is a big increase in attack speed as well as WS damage.

I'm not saying the DA sword is better, I'm saying is it really such a gap to say "STR is the only option"

Yes it's a big enough gap. STR is the only sword worth using if you do not need Accuracy or do not have an Ephemeron. Your extra TP per hit accounts for 1 attack round worth of TP. The extra delay shaved off of the Khanda is worth more than that.

What did I just read? If you value your BLU, do not take the above poster's advice.

Hey Guys,

The discussion of "which sword is best" is certainly one which has taken place time and time again throughout the history of Azure Lore. Before anything, I want to just say please don't feel disconcerned or uncomfortable for not being able to gauge the differences between the vast options available.

I for one can completely relate to this:

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I'm not saying the DA sword is better, I'm saying is it really such a gap to say "STR is the only option"

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Indeed, it's difficult to correctly discern what the gap is without prior knowledge or informed discussion. For one, I personally could not tell how much of difference it was at first without some parsed testing, research and talking to some better informed players. I felt that if I was going to put all this time and effort into something it had better be noticeable. More often than not for Blue Mage it's the subtle benefits which make the biggest differences.

DPS - Damage Per Second. Calculated as DPS = DMG/(Delay/60). The higher a weapons DPS, the better it is before considering additional effects.

OA2-4 Weapon

• 30 Base Damage - The Base Damage on these weapons are comparable to that which a LV47 Blue Mage could use. What this leaves you with is poor damage over time. The only way a weapon with such low DMG could be worthwhile is whether the delay was so low its DPS (damage per second) ends up actually very high.
• 264 Delay - Unfortunantly the delay on these weapons is very high, lowering your DPS drastically.
• Effect - Does the effect outweigh these downsides? Unfortunatly no. It tries to balance itself out with this effect but the downsides of the aforemention two points is so great it's not worth it.

OA2 Weapon

• 51 Base Damage - This base damage is better than the OA2-4 weapon but still below average.
• 264 Delay - Unfortunantly the delay on this weapon is still very high. While the higher base damage does make the DPS better, it's still below average for Blue Mage Weapons at this level.
• Effect - Last year this weapon was tested to have a ~40% proc rate. I don't know whether it still is but even if you attacked twice 90% of the time it would not be enough to outweigh the benefits of the alternative weapons.

Whilst the concept of additional attacks may seem attractive, it actually does very little to improve a Blue Mage's offense. I'll illustrate why whilst covering the upcoming weapons:

Double Attack +11

• 62 Base Damage - The base damage for this sword is respectable for LV99.
• 252 Delay - The delay for this sword is lower than that of the OA? weapons but is still very high for the average Blue Mage weapon.
• Effect - The juciy part of this weapon is its DA +11. While DA+11 procs a less than the OAT weapons, the mechanics of Double Attack outshine them.

  --> The effect "Occasionally Attacks" procs only on the weapon which it is stated for. The effect "Double Attack" can proc on either weapon whilst Dual-Wielding, or even both weapons.

  --> The effect "Occasionally Attacks" procs only on melee swings. The effect "Double Attack" can proc on melee swings and also twice on weaponskill's. For example: Chant Du Cygne is a 3-Hit Weaponskill. When dual-wielding, your offhand weapon can make it a 4-Hit Weaponskill. Should double attack proc twice during the weaponskill, it becomes 6-Hits. The limit on this is 8-Hits per Weaponskill.

  --> The effect "Occasionally Attacks" and "Double Attack" do not stack with each other. In addition the effects also have a priority order:

  • Quadruple Attack
  • OA4
  • Triple Attack
  • OA3
  • Double Attack
  • OA2

As the effects do not lend themselves to each other, when one activates the rest are equivalent to nothing. e.g. If your DA activates, your OA2 is worthless. With all the Double Attack enhancements available to Blue Mage that you'll most likely be taking advantage of, you are better off increasing the effect rather than working on another.

STR Weapon

• 61 Base Damage - Respectful.
• 230 Delay - Combined with the base DMG the delay results in a good DPS rating.
• Effect - Without getting too precise, STR increases the damage of Melee swings, weaponskills, physical blue spells. It also contributes to secondary STR modifiers should the spell or WS have one. The additional 27 attack also increases the damage of your Melee Swings and Weaponskills.

While it is difficult to express fully in a summary, the reason why the STR sword outshines all of the other Magian weapons is because of the increase in damage it provides to practically everything you will be doing offensively.

If you would like more specific details or have any questions please ask.

Hope this helped.

As much as I tend to disagree with Proth, he's correct here. BLU isn't a job with high attack and thus will almost never be in a situation with capped ratio. Capping accuracy is child's play now. STR is always useful as you need + ~60 STR to cap fSTR on a 90 Almace, that's not going to happen on anything worthwhile outside of Abyssea.

The main source of a CDC BLU's damage is that WS not their spells. You will use your spells to self SC with CDC for additional damage or for setting useful buffs / job traits. You can also use yoru spells to finish something off without having to waste TP on a WS when it's almost dead.

How does the additional TP from an OA2-4 sword factor into the comparisons?

I've asked on various boards and never seen the actual equations being used when sword comparisons are being done. No one has ever offered them up

It has high delay (for a sword), unfavourable effect (procs after DA/TA) and crap damage rating, there's hardly anything good about it.

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

How does the additional TP from an OA2-4 sword factor into the comparisons?

I've asked on various boards and never seen the actual equations being used when sword comparisons are being done. No one has ever offered them up

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This is where it get's a lot more tricky as you'll need to specify exactly what is being compared as a consideration. I could tell you exactly how much tp you'll be producing but you'll need to decide whether you're dual-wielding, what tier of dual-wield you have, your equipment, and what exactly you're comparing it to.

Weapons produce more TP per hit the higher their delay. With the higher delay and multi-hitting attack you'll produce TP faster with the OA2-4 weapon than any of the others. Having one myself, I definetly will say it's very fun to see yourself gain 30+ TP in a round.

However, the extra TP gain does not give increase your damage enough to use as a mainstain weapon and should only be considered if you're looking for something to help you proc weaponskills faster or you're spamming Sanguine Blade with MATK atmas.

PLD+Kclub + Sanguine blade +MAB atma/gear = immortal.

Stopped reading at MAB atma. Not sure how I walked past kclub either, I must be tired.

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Originally Posted by Tashan

This is where it get's a lot more tricky as you'll need to specify exactly what is being compared as a consideration. I could tell you exactly how much tp you'll be producing but you'll need to decide whether you're dual-wielding, what tier of dual-wield you have, your equipment, and what exactly you're comparing it to.

Weapons produce more TP per hit the higher their delay. With the higher delay and multi-hitting attack you'll produce TP faster with the OA2-4 weapon than any of the others. Having one myself, I definetly will say it's very fun to see yourself gain 30+ TP in a round.

However, the extra TP gain does not give increase your damage enough to use as a mainstain weapon and should only be considered if you're looking for something to help you proc weaponskills faster or you're spamming Sanguine Blade with MATK atmas.

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I'd be curious to see just how much damage is being lost by subbing a OA2-4 and if doing CdCs a lot more often and keeping Aftermath up longer with an Almace main makes up for it. Considering that there might be situations where CdC may be the only effective way for a BLU to damage some high-def/high-level mobs, anything that supplements Almace CdC use seems to be ideal.

Also, I wonder if the previous assessments were Abyssea-centric. With new content coming that is outside of Abyssea, any calculations involving Razed Ruins and other killer atma is going to be less and less relevant. If new Nyzul is anything like old Nyzul, Blue Magic is going to be crap on boss NMs and we'll need to CdC as often as possible to meaningfully contribute.

I don't have either sword, but I've love to see the calculations and criteria people have used to make this decision.

I know that with the OA2 sword is really all but useless seeing as with the Double Attack sword it is very easy for a BLU to hit over 30% double attack and 3% TA /nin, or 34% DA 8% TA if you're pushing it with /war, and the DA applies to both hands rather than just the sword it is on, and it also proc's on WS's for increased damage. Meaning a 40% OA2 in one hand isn't all that appealing for TP gain seeing as it renders DA / TA much less useful.

But I couldnt say for OA2-4 times, did anyone ever work out the exact distribution of hits for it? I thought it was pretty poor.

On a side note I've been on the test server doing new Nyzul with BLU, and it seems to be the same as level 75 nyzul. BLU is extremely useful as sudden lunge stuns nearly everything you come across. (Though we couldnt find a boss floor to see what we got)

As said, it get's really difficult to calculate the differences in damage between the weapons precisely because the is a lot which must be considered for in order to do so. As such, it's not something which I will be taking the time to actually do but I can demonstrate what exactly the thought process behind it is.

The main areas of consideration would be:
--> The situation you are in.
--> Your statistics including traits, equipment, food, and enhancements.
--> Enemy statistics.

Situation

The situation is important because it determines a BLU's general battle strategy.

For example, in a situation where you are killing monsters for an extended amount of time such as an abyssea merit party the most damage you can be doing on BLU is to cast Delta Thrust, Heavy Strike, and Benethic Typhoon as much as possible whilst meleeing, weaponskilling and self-skillchaining. With the release of the new spells you'll now be throwing EF Quadrastrikes in as much as possible, rather than EFCA Qaud. Cont. Since you will be spending nearly as much time spellcast as you will be meleeing, instantly the 11 STR weapon becomes a much better constant boost.

In the example you've mention of High Def/High Level monsters, I assume you're refering to Voidwatch where your best option is to not melee but to spam Regurgitation, Dark Orb and perform as many BA Everyone's Grudge's as you can.

In situations such as Notorious Monsters, you'll want to avoid using OA2-4 weapons as much as possible because the TP recieved:Damage ratio you're feeding to your opponent is in their favour since the sword has such a low base-damage.

Statistics

Consider:

-->STR vs VIT - Are you already capping fSTR on the monster you're fighting?
-->Physical BLU ATK vs DEF - How much damage will your spells be doing?
-->Melee ATK vs DEF - How much damage will your WS' and melee swings be doing?
-->Additional Attacks and Counter Rates
-->Delay reduction and Haste
-->WS TP Gain - How often will you be recieving additional hits during weaponskills? How much extra TP will you have after WS' over time? How much of that TP will be spent for spellcasts during Chain Affinity?
-->Critical Hit Damage and Rate

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All of this can become extremely specific and time-consuming that it's beyond my own interests. However, there are those who will put in the effort and work and you are able to contact them.

For example: I believe it was Nightfyre of the Fenrir server who took the time to compare the LV90 DA+10 weapon against the STR Shamshir for damage and found the STR Shamshir pulls ahead.

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But I couldnt say for OA2-4 times, did anyone ever work out the exact distribution of hits for it? I thought it was pretty poor.

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IIRC it was 40/20/10 for 2/3/4 attacks respectively. The OA2-3 Sword averaged at 1.7 attacks per round, so the OA2-4 can't be much higher than that.

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

How does the additional TP from an OA2-4 sword factor into the comparisons?

I've asked on various boards and never seen the actual equations being used when sword comparisons are being done. No one has ever offered them up

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Badly. I did a comparison with it a while ago by request and the long story short is that our relatively high base multiattack rate and the inferior delay combine to make it very unattractive. I did the comparison both in and outside Abyssea. Changes since then have if anything only made it worse relative to other options.

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Originally Posted by Nightfyre

Badly. I did a comparison with it a while ago by request and the long story short is that our relatively high base multiattack rate and the inferior delay combine to make it very unattractive. I did the comparison both in and outside Abyssea. Changes since then have if anything only made it worse relative to other options.

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Once again, I'll ask for the actual calculations used to make that determination.

As far as I can tell from what little has been posted, the assumptions used to make that determination are radically different from what I know about BLU. (For example, SE has confirmed BLU set DA is only 7% and our DA gear choices are not that great, so I don't even know what you are talking about when you say "high base multi-attack" considering /WAR is going to be terrible in a lot of situations. I don't even see why there is such a large importance being placed on rare DA conflicts with OA2-4 on normal strikes.)

I'll grant that the evaluation may be correct, but the fact that no one I have asked on multiple boards has ever provided figures or what conditions were used does not inspire confidence in the evaluation.

On the contrary, /WAR is the best melee sub that BLU can use in any situation that it would be meleeing aside from solo.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

On the contrary, /WAR is the best melee sub that BLU can use in any situation that it would be meleeing aside from solo.

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What situation would you use /WAR for?

I do a lot of lowmanning, tanking, and soloing, and in those situations I can't see /WAR being useful since it lacks damage mitigation. Honestly, I can't think of a single situation where /WAR would be the best choice.

Are people making these evaluations based on some theoretical fight where /WAR would be useful to max out melee strikes and the enemy never hits you or uses TP moves? I could see that happening in merit Abyssea parties, but who really cares about maxxing melee there since mobs last a few seconds each? You could increase kill speed better by simply BLU-burning.

It's these kinds of issues that make me really want to see the original calculations. I'm only asking that someone post a link.

Could just get better support. I don't have Nightfyre's information concerning swords, however using common sense and experience with the job for several years, I can affirm my belief in /WAR being the superior sub job for BLU in most situations where you're meleeing these days. That allows access to a large amount of multiattack+, which does not mesh well with an OA2-4 weapon. Beyond that, the weapon's pitiful base damage and delay make it even more unattractive. Surely you can see that?

In VW /war is fantastic if you plan on meleeing the monster. Occultation is nothing to be sniffed at, and Magic Barrier is good for negating that next AoE. But really? A good group in VW should be able to keep you in fanatic drinks about 80% of the time.

You can set triple attack on BLU main, have double attack from sub, zerk + aggresor, dual wield 3 naturally from BLU now. It has a lot to really push up your melee damage.

I've tried /war at Pil, Akvan, Kaggen, Qilin etc and I survive just as easily as any other DD and I'm able to provide massive chunks of damage.

Indeed theory fighting can only be respected as far, but as said before I'm not willing to sit down and calculate the results because it would take too much time. Particularly since the answer is predictably obvious.

However, what I am willing to do is some parsing. I so happen to have an OA2-4 Khanda and a STR Shamshir. If you want to set the parameters and situations for me test the two weapons I will do so. Simply look at the considerations which need to be made on the list I wrote and submit your specifications.

I will then do the parsing when I can get around to it. With the holiday season that may not be until the 27th at least.

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Originally Posted by Tashan

Indeed theory fighting can only be respected as far, but as said before I'm not willing to sit down and calculate the results because it would take too much time. Particularly since the answer is predictably obvious.

However, what I am willing to do is some parsing. I so happen to have an OA2-4 Khanda and a STR Shamshir. If you want to set the parameters and situations for me test the two weapons I will do so. Simply look at the considerations which need to be made on the list I wrote and submit your specifications.

I will then do the parsing when I can get around to it. With the holiday season that may not be until the 27th at least.

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If you have an Almace (85) or better to mainhand, go for it. I'd love to see what the parses look like on EM or stronger foes that aren't feeding you a lot of TP.

If it's just a parse on abyssea leveling mobs or not using an Almace (85) or better, it would be a waste of your time.

I have an Almace (90), a (90) OA2-4, and a Shamshir (95).

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

What situation would you use /WAR for?

I do a lot of lowmanning, tanking, and soloing, and in those situations I can't see /WAR being useful since it lacks damage mitigation. Honestly, I can't think of a single situation where /WAR would be the best choice.

Are people making these evaluations based on some theoretical fight where /WAR would be useful to max out melee strikes and the enemy never hits you or uses TP moves? I could see that happening in merit Abyssea parties, but who really cares about maxxing melee there since mobs last a few seconds each? You could increase kill speed better by simply BLU-burning.

It's these kinds of issues that make me really want to see the original calculations. I'm only asking that someone post a link.

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BLU/WAR is used when you need maximum melee offense. Almace/STR Shamshir with DWIII set and as many JT's as you can fit along with A.Spikes and Q.strike (self SC properties). Use occulation for damage mitigation and ride zerg while spamming CDC as much as possible. It's not a sub for solo / small group scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

What situation would you use /WAR for?

I do a lot of lowmanning, tanking, and soloing, and in those situations I can't see /WAR being useful since it lacks damage mitigation. Honestly, I can't think of a single situation where /WAR would be the best choice.

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Given the lack of any useful clarifying information from the OP, the assumption is that damage output is the primary focus and you build accordingly when making comparisons. If you want data for a specific situation, you have to provide specific input.

For your specific case, I can actually construct further arguments against the use of an OA4 weapon given the increase in TP feed and inefficient damage/hit. You have to weigh the TP gain of an OA4 offhand (which is solely useful for increased Sanguine Blade spam, at which point the use of mainhand Almace is called into question... I'm sure you can see where I'm going here) against a defensive option (pdt/eva swords, Genbu's Shield) or even simply killing faster with a superior offhand.

As for /WAR, I use it pretty much any time where damage taken either isn't a concern or can't be sufficiently mitigated by subjob abilities to justify the loss of output. This actually includes a fair amount of Voidwatch NMs, among other content. It's not necessary for the purpose of my comparison though and I did the comparisons both as /NIN and /WAR. Also, even as /NIN you'll find that BLU does in fact have a high base multiattack rate. My melee-focused set has 6% triple attack and 16% DA and is actually missing 3% DA (Portus Collar, though it's not exactly clear-cut vs Rancor). Combined with even our 7% base trait, that's 1.3362 attacks generated per hand per round using Almace/STR. By comparison, an augmented Armadaberk WAR using AF3 neck/earring, Brutal, Atheling, and AF3+2 legs has 31% DA for 1.31 attacks per round. If /WAR with Triple attack set, my hits/round actually exceeds that of a MNK/WAR. I'll grant that the set I'm using on BLU is pretty high-end (I have Toci's Harness and Ocelomeh Headpiece +1), but even replacing Ocelomeh+1/Toci's with Mavi+2/Mavi+2 you exceed 1.25 hits as /NIN with DA set.

I'll do some fresh comparisons for 99 later, holidays etc.

I don't mean to be impolite, but that seems to be a circular bit of theory.

If you care about TP feed for any reason, then you shouldn't be meleeing at all (or should be using a sub with Subtle Blow if you can afford some TP feed and you want to minimize it).

If you don't care about TP feed, then any actual total damage lost by offhanding an OA2-4 comes from slightly slower melee strikes that do a slightly smaller amount of total damage. (Only a quarter of DA and TA on melee strikes is wasted because DA and TA still work fine on WS, so the actual amounts of lost damage from melee strikes is very small.)

In exchange, you get a huge amount of OA2, OA3, and OA4 on that weapon and a huge amount of TP and the ability to WS substantially more often (and it leads to the further question of whether a TP gearset might be more favorable overall).

The only relevant question is whether the small amount of melee strikes damage lost by using an OA2-4 in the offhand is offset by the extra damage from WSs and ODD from an Almace. Any other theoretical discussions are a distraction at best and misleading at worst.

I mean, saying that you get more hits/round than a MNK/WAR says nothing about Total Damage Over Time, and at the end of the day the total amount of damage is the only important number. An Almace sword makes this an interesting question because Chant Du Cygne can often do good to decent damage on NMs that we can only slightly damage with a normal melee strike or BLU spell, so maxxing out uses of CdC also maxxes out Total Damage.

I think the thing I find most fascinating about this argument is that people are making snap decisions after looking at just a few stats divorced from all the other considerations that go into increasing total damage, including other directly relevant stats.

TP feed from a BLU is largely irrelevant in Voidwatch (and even on most Abyssea NMs) where /WAR is most relevant. It isn't a slight amount of attack speed loss or a slight amount of melee damage lost by wielding an OA2 or OA4 sword, it is a significant amount. You either are not reading the thread clearly or are very stubborn, as it's been said several times now why the OA4 and OA2 swords are inferior to other options in several different ways.

Blue Mage has shit for attack. We can bolster it to acceptable levels with Berserk and Stalwart's Drink, but it's still rather bad. Losing 27.5 attack from a fire sword and 25+/- base damage on top of the substantial loss of attack delay and overall melee swing damage, before even considering that the multiattack procs on an OA2 or OA4 sword are largely mitigated by BLU's already substantial multiattack rate, is a fairly one-sided battle in favor of a fire sword. It honestly is a no brainer, I don't see how anyone can argue differently.

A BLU can handily exceed a MNK/WAR's attacks per round, and even with that a BLU will never exceed a MNK/WAR's overall damage done over time, however an OA2 or OA4 sword is limiting BLU's damage potential even further. This is the part you seem to be having trouble with: an OA2 or OA4 sword will not be increasing your weaponskill frequency, it will almost certainly be hurting it. It will not only be detrimental to your weaponskill frequency, but your overall damage done.

I'm sorry that you wasted so much time on your sword, however it does not make it any more relevant in any possible situation.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

This is the part you seem to be having trouble with: an OA2 or OA4 sword will not be increasing your weaponskill frequency, it will almost certainly be hurting it.

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Correct. All of the data I've seen says that WS frequency is increased when using an OA2-4 offhand.

If you have any data or calculations disproving that, I'd like to look them over.

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

I don't mean to be impolite, but that seems to be a circular bit of theory.

If you care about TP feed for any reason, then you shouldn't be meleeing at all (or should be using a sub with Subtle Blow if you can afford some TP feed and you want to minimize it).

If you don't care about TP feed, then any actual total damage lost by offhanding an OA2-4 comes from slightly slower melee strikes that do a slightly smaller amount of total damage. (Only a quarter of DA and TA on melee strikes is wasted because DA and TA still work fine on WS, so the actual amounts of lost damage from melee strikes is very small.)

In exchange, you get a huge amount of OA2, OA3, and OA4 on that weapon and a huge amount of TP and the ability to WS substantially more often (and it leads to the further question of whether a TP gearset might be more favorable overall).

The only relevant question is whether the small amount of melee strikes damage lost by using an OA2-4 in the offhand is offset by the extra damage from WSs and ODD from an Almace. Any other theoretical discussions are a distraction at best and misleading at worst.

I mean, saying that you get more hits/round than a MNK/WAR says nothing about Total Damage Over Time, and at the end of the day the total amount of damage is the only important number. An Almace sword makes this an interesting question because Chant Du Cygne can often do good to decent damage on NMs that we can only slightly damage with a normal melee strike or BLU spell, so maxxing out uses of CdC also maxxes out Total Damage.

I think the thing I find most fascinating about this argument is that people are making snap decisions after looking at just a few stats divorced from all the other considerations that go into increasing total damage, including other directly relevant stats.

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You don't understand what is meant by Damage vs TP Fed.

The idea is not whether you're feeding TP to a monster or not, but how much damage you're doing whilst feeding a certain amount of TP.

When you hit an enemy with a OA Khanda you're feeding your enemy 9.9 TP per hit, whilst with a STR Shamshir it's 9.2. As a rough number lets say the OA does 50 damage per hit, and the Shamshir does 100 damage per hit. By the time you've fed your opponent 90TP, you'll have done 500 damage with the OA and 1000 with the Shamshir. Regardless of whether you're hitting your opponent faster you're still doing less damage.

That is what is meant about TP Feed vs Damage.

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You've still not stated your parameters for me to do any parsing.

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Originally Posted by Tashan

You don't understand what is meant by Damage vs TP Fed.

The idea is not whether you're feeding TP to a monster or not, but how much damage you're doing whilst feeding a certain amount of TP.

When you hit an enemy with a OA Khanda you're feeding your enemy 9.9 TP per hit, whilst with a STR Shamshir it's 9.2. As a rough number lets say the OA does 50 damage per hit, and the Shamshir does 100 damage per hit. By the time you've fed your opponent 90TP, you'll have done 500 damage with the OA and 1000 with the Shamshir. Regardless of whether you're hitting your opponent faster you're still doing less damage.

That is what is meant about TP Feed vs Damage.

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You've still not stated your parameters for me to do any parsing.

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I understand what TP feed vs. damage means, but I don't see it as a useful idea for BLUs.

I mean, if the mob you are fighting has dangerous TP moves and you are concerned about them doing those moves, then letting a BLU melee on that mob is a bad tactic regardless of the swords he is using. You don't do it.

If those TP moves are manageable, then it doesn't matter how much TP you feed the mob. Sword away as much as you want and spam multi-hit spells.

In the middle situation where you want to keep TP moves to a minimum but can afford some TP feeding, the BLU uses magic spells or single-hit physical spells and doesn't melee at all.

TP feed vs. damage is a useful concept for WARs and other dedicated meleeing guys, but not for BLUs because any meleeing at all is going to be the worse TP feed vs. damage option for our job compared to our other options.

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As for a parse, the parameters would be 99+ mobs outside of Abyssea. I'd be interested to see if more frequent ODD and CdC use compensate for the loss of melee hit damage from using an OA2-4.

Any other parameters you need?

Sorry, I didn't mean to say "You don't understand" as that seems rude. It was suppose to say "It kinda seems you don't".

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I mean, if the mob you are fighting has dangerous TP moves and you are concerned about them doing those moves, then letting a BLU melee on that mob is a bad tactic regardless of the swords he is using. You don't do it.

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I disagree with that. The reason why it's important to consider TP Feed vs Damage Dealt is because it contributes to playing efficiently. For example I was soloing Odin Prime earlier and his TP moves are:

Gagnrath: Front-AoE damage and Terror.
Sanngetall: AoE Dispel, removes one buff.
Valfodr: AoE damage and Curse + Silence.
Ofnir: AoE damage.
Yggr: Gives Odin the ability to Intimidate players.
Geirrothr: Only has a 3000 Needles effect instead of the 10000 Needles effect Einherjar Odin does. Used around 50%.
Zantetsuken : An Astral Flow like ability. Will be used under 50% HP . This move will deal death to all members within a 30' radius around him.

Any of those moves used repeatedly are annoying to deal with. It would be inefficient for me to do less damage whilst giving him more TP, and thus taking more damage. However, just because the moves are annoying, doesn't mean I'm not going to melee at all.

Another example could be myself in a party farming an NM such as Orthrus, and I'm damage dealing or tanking. Whilst moves such as Acheron Flame and [Paralyze TP Move] are manageable, it is more efficient for him to have lost more health than less between being able to use them.

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As you've said not Abyssea Merit Mobs, I've thought of leaving abyssea and using a camp in one of the older regions with new monsters. However, I'm not sure which to use just yet. Usually in a parsing test I would stick to a specific situation or monster and then fight a large numeber of them with each dependant variable that we're assessing.

For example, I've just visited the higher level camp in The Boyahda Tree and there are VT-IT Crabs, Crawlers and Puks there. However, the layout of the camp is mixed and thus not easy for me to pick just one mob family to stick to without aggroing/engaging others. A mixture wouldn't be bad either, but Puks have moves such as Flash and Knockback which may skewer results.

If you're happy for me to stay at this camp I'm happy to stay, but if not do you have any suggestions?

In addition what independant variables would you like me to control? My current TP build setup for the following:

Almace(90) + Khanda(90)

BLU/NIN

Total Delay: 207.4953 (3.46 seconds)
TP Per Hit: 5.7 (15 Hits for 85.3 TP + 14.7 WS TP)
Equipment Haste: 252 (24.61%)
Magic Haste (Animating Wail): 14.65%
Total Haste: 39.26
Store TP Job + Other: 18
STR: 98+26
Attack: 542
Critical Hit Rate Merits: 5/5 + Whatever Rancor Collar is.
Double Attack Rate: Trait + 13%
Triple Attack Rate: 3%

Almace(90) + Shamshir(95)

BLU/NIN

Total Delay: 193.0387 (3.22 seconds)
TP Per Hit: 5.6 (16 Hits for 85.5 TP + 14.5 WS TP)
Equipment Haste: 252 (24.61%)
Magic Haste (Animating Wail): 14.65%
Total Haste: 39.26
Store TP Job + Other: 18
STR: 98+36
Attack: 569
Critical Hit Rate Merits: 5/5 + Whatever Rancor Collar is.
Double Attack Rate: Trait + 13%
Triple Attack Rate: 3%


Job Traits Set Besides /NIN are:

Assimilation
Auto Refresh
Attack Bonus
Double Attack
Store TP
Conserve MP
Skillchain Bonus
Evasion Bonus

Spells Set:

Heavy Strike
Empty Thrash
Delta Thrust
Quadrastrike
Amorphic Spikes
Sudden Lunge
Fantod
Plasma Charge
Actinic Burst
Magic Fruit
Animating Wail
Battle Dance
Uppercut
Goblin Rush
Chaotic Eye
Zephyr Mantle
Occulation
Screwdriver


As for the WS set the only thing which is notably important is I'll have:

Double Attack: Trait + 11%
Triple Attack: 3%

Lastly there's the parameter's of what is to be kept the same whilst actually fighting. As said in an earlier post, the most effective way for a BLU to deal damage is to use Delta Thrust, Benethic Typhoon (I will leave this out because of its add. effect), and Heavy Strike as often as possible whilst meleeing and doing Efflux + Quadrastrike and skillchains with CA + Amorphic Spikes. This is where the differences between the weapons will become most notable. It is possible to discount any thing I do later on by simply deducting it's damage if you don't agree with it, but I can avoid it all together by not using it.

Do you want me to change sub?
Do you want me to change spells?
Should I not use Plen. Embrace because of it's add effect? (I don't usually when soloing anyway)
How many monsters do you want me to fight with each sword setup?
Should I avoid debuffs?
Do you want me to use food?

On these VT-IT mobs in Boyahda Tree, my accuracy is capped and the monsters check with Low Evasion. Defense varies. I have Red Curry +1's, Meat Mithkabobs and Squid Sushi +1 on me atm if you wan me to use them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

Correct. All of the data I've seen says that WS frequency is increased when using an OA2-4 offhand.

If you have any data or calculations disproving that, I'd like to look them over.

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My data and calculations are common sense. I honestly have 0 idea how you cannot possibly see what everyone else sees, and so adamantly defend the inferior option.

D: 61
Delay: 230
STR+11
Attack+22

v.

D: 31
Delay: 264
Occ. attacks 2-4 times (30%/40%/20%/10% hit distribution)


A good Blue Mage has a minimum of 20% Double Attack and 3% Triple Attack in TP gear, and can get as high as 29% Double Attack and 11% Triple Attack in TP gear (perhaps a little more, may be missing a piece).

That's an already massive amount of chance to have a multiattack on both weapons. This, plus the extra 34 delay, plus the loss of 30 base damage, plus the loss of 11 strength, plus the loss of 27.5 attack, leads to the OA2-4 being absolutely worthless. What do you not grasp in this concept? You really don't need calculations to discern this, and judging by your past experiences whoever did the calculations previously had no idea what they were talking about.

With 29% DA and 11% TA:

You have an 11% chance to Triple Attack, and then a 29% chance to Double Attack. The game will always look for Triple Attack before Double Attack, and the Double Attack will not occur if the Triple Attack does first.

0.89 * 0.71 = 0.6319% chance that you will not get a Double or Triple attack, or 63.19%, meaning you waste 36.81% of the OA2-4 sword's "potential".

In contrast, OA2-4 sword, assuming 30/40/20/10, has 2.1 attacks/round average, which is a ~55% increase in attack frequency before DA/TA, which comes out to a 16.5% increase in attacks/round once you consider DW and DA/TA. Once you factor in the higher delay however, it's less of an increase in TP speed, for a grand total of 22% once all is said and done. Once you factor in the loss of 30 D, 27.5 attack, and 11 STR, it's a major loss in overall DPS, including melee strikes, spells, and weaponskills.

Any "potential" that an OA2-4 sword may have is undoubtedly diminished by Blue Mage's native abilities and the fire sword's attributes. It comes down to a delay difference which makes for slower TP gain and aftermath damage, while DA/TA significantly reduce the effectiveness of an OA2-4 sword, which only works in one hand, reducing its impact, and low base damage contributing to further loss of DOT that isn't compensated for by a minor or nonexistent increase in WS frequency.


Clear enough for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demonofhunger

I don't mean to be impolite, but that seems to be a circular bit of theory.

If you care about TP feed for any reason, then you shouldn't be meleeing at all (or should be using a sub with Subtle Blow if you can afford some TP feed and you want to minimize it).

If you don't care about TP feed, then any actual total damage lost by offhanding an OA2-4 comes from slightly slower melee strikes that do a slightly smaller amount of total damage. (Only a quarter of DA and TA on melee strikes is wasted because DA and TA still work fine on WS, so the actual amounts of lost damage from melee strikes is very small.)

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It's the logical endpoint of a presented scenario, not circular reasoning. If you're not meleeing at all then the discussion is entirely irrelevant. If you are, your choice of subjob will not affect which weapon is feeding more TP nor by how much so it is a point that should still be kept in mind.

Quote:

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The only relevant question is whether the small amount of melee strikes damage lost by using an OA2-4 in the offhand is offset by the extra damage from WSs and ODD from an Almace. Any other theoretical discussions are a distraction at best and misleading at worst.

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Such thinking is pitifully limited at best and outright counterproductive at worst. Weapon choice should match the situation just like anything else. If you're only interested in DPS then your mention of situations where utility is a consideration was irrelevant.

Quote:

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I mean, saying that you get more hits/round than a MNK/WAR says nothing about Total Damage Over Time

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I never said it did. You challenged my assertion that BLU has a high hits/round value, I defended it. At least try to keep basic points straight, discussions are much less tedious and repetitive that way.

Quote:

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I think the thing I find most fascinating about this argument is that people are making snap decisions after looking at just a few stats divorced from all the other considerations that go into increasing total damage, including other directly relevant stats.

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That's quite a snap judgement you just made there, be careful where it takes you. For instance:

Quote:

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Chant Du Cygne can often do good to decent damage on NMs that we can only slightly damage with a normal melee strike or BLU spell, so maxxing out uses of CdC also maxxes out Total Damage.

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This is not absolutely true. Tactical Mantle doesn't beat Atheling, Houyi's Gorget generally doesn't beat Fortitude Torque and definitely doesn't beat Rancor Collar (even Portus Collar is usually second-best), Zelus/Loki's isn't remotely close to Ocelomeh +1/Toci's despite having a lower average rounds/ws value and fractionally more haste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tashan

Do you want me to change sub?
Do you want me to change spells?
Should I not use Plen. Embrace because of it's add effect? (I don't usually when soloing anyway)
How many monsters do you want me to fight with each sword setup?
Should I avoid debuffs?
Do you want me to use food?

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The sub, set-up, and location is fine since it tends to be evenly favoring both potential results, but you have to set Blank Gaze and Winds of Promyvion. Crabs and crawlers both have +Defense moves that need to be immediately stripped for the parse to be meaningful and the slow effect from from Filamented Hold from the crawlers needs to be taken off yourself as fast as possible so that Haste can be reapplied.

Puks aren't even a potential source of mobs since so many of their TP moves will ruin the data.

In fact, you might also want to not use spell Haste at all. Filamented Hold will overwrite your haste and ruin the numbers if you don't put it back up fast enough.... even a few shadow recasts or a heal might bone it.

(I wonder if it might be easier to just throw out any data set where the mob uses Filamented Hold or puts up a Defense bonus TP move.... would that even be possible considering the amount of TP-feeding you'll be doing?)

That being said, please don't use Plen. Embrace. Inconsistently applying an Attack bonus seems like a perfect way to ruin the data.

I also expect that you'll record all spell use and enemy TP moves. I mean, we don't want one set of data to be skewed because you spent less time swinging and more time casting spells to cure damage or put shadows/blink up.

CdC at as close to 100 TP as you can.... I guess that's it.

---------------------------

As to the other part of your post, I found it interesting.

In fact, I've been killing Orthrus a few times a week for the last few months with my lowman group. We only have one healer, so as BLU I don't melee on it at all. The main tank knocks it down in a rather slow fight so that the one healer can deal with the damage. Sometimes it doesn't work and I back-up tank until weakness fades. He's not even a NM whose moves I'd consider terribly bad except for the one at 50% that sometimes just drops anyone nearby.

As for the Odin Prime you were soloing... I wouldn't TP on him at all. It seems a lot safer to just use the tactic that people use on the NM sabotender that drops BLU body seals in Altepa (A). They don't melee at all, cast single hit damaging spells, and hit it with Reaving Wind so that it never uses 10K Needles. It's slow and boring, but it apparently works (I wouldn't know... I lowmanned the hydra in Grauberg for my seals and shadow tanked the crap out of him).

Still, what do you do about the Death effect? Just die, RR, wait to unweaken and then finish?