Still no decent elemental WS for RDM that uses MAB?

I like where the new WSs are going but I'm still really sore about no Sanguine Blade and no other Elemental WS that RDM can actually use it's MAB on for single targets. In some ways, Requiescat will replace the need for magical damage WS to get around high defense, but I still don't see why you wouldn't want to give RDM an elemental WS to use all of the MAB gear they can collect.

I would advocate changing Death Blossom from a Physical WS to an Elemental WS. Keep it's SC properties the same but change the effect TP plays on its damage output. You can change it to 'Damage varies with TP.' and give it Uriel Blades Scaling. OR you can keep the Magic Evasion down and give it a decent multiplier like 3.0 ~ 4.0 and increase the Magic Evasion down to at least -30 and stack with Ninjitsu debuffs.

Murgleis is perfectly setup to be used for elemental WS with it's high magic accuracy and all of it's aftermath effects are beneficial as well to an Elemental WS that uses MAB as a factor. Make the Murgleis the pinnacle of RDM's elemental WS use just like the Almace does for Physical WSs.

There is way too much they'd need to do to make Murgleis not suck beyond Convert macro, and even turning Db into an elews will not save it unless they turn it into the new Jinpu with even better mods + damage varies by TP - or make it a Crit WS with new mods.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

There is way too much they'd need to do to make Murgleis not suck beyond Convert macro, and even turning Db into an elews will not save it unless they turn it into the new Jinpu with even better mods + damage varies by TP - or make it a Crit WS with new mods.

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We already have CDC if we are willing to work for it. I don't see why we need a 2nd Crit WS. Requiescat is going to be used again higher Def mobs and mobs with physical resistance/immunity. You even get to add in multiple attacks to your damage modifiers, which is nice since we get temper and BLU gets some double and triple attack. At this point Excaliber is probably going to be used for Requiescat for it's +Attack more than it will be used for Knights of the Rounds. So at least Almace and Excaliber might both have uses. Why is the Murgleis so bad when it is blatantly the most time consuming to acquire?

What we don't have is a WS that actually uses MAB as the fuel for our damage. If Death Blossom was turned into Wildfire, wouldn't you want it? Of all the jobs in the game, RDM comes in at 2nd behind BLM in MAB. Why don't we have good Elemental WSs to take advantage of this? We really should be playing to our strengths.

I do agree that Murgleis needs more upgrades, but changing Death Blossom into a desirable WS would help every RDM. If they change enfeebling back to requiring large amounts of magical accuracy to land debuffs on hard targets(instead of them being immune), then the M.ACC on Murgleis will start to shine more.

Aside from Sam/Maybe Blade: To hybrid WS I'm fairly certain their really isn't another elemental WS that's multihit (I'm not counting Atonement since that is modded by Enmity).

SE already stated they have no intention of fixing Requiescat's Attack penalty so I'm not holding my breath out for that.

Although it would be fairly rare I would prefer a strong physical WS with Murgleis to benefit from the Occaisonally attacks 2-3 times effect.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Aside from Sam/Maybe Blade: To hybrid WS I'm fairly certain their really isn't another elemental WS that's multihit (I'm not counting Atonement since that is modded by Enmity).

SE already stated they have no intention of fixing Requiescat's Attack penalty so I'm not holding my breath out for that.

Although it would be fairly rare I would prefer a strong physical WS with Murgleis to benefit from the Occaisonally attacks 2-3 times effect.

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I know what you mean on the Occasionally attacks 2-3 times being nicely suited for physical WSs. But it also makes TPing a breeze. Death Blossom is already a 3 hit WS so you can technically hit 8 attacks without even having an offhand during WS. Is it going to be beat out max damage on CDC though? I don't think it will. I'm pretty sure dual wield and some decent double attack and crit gear is still going to win in max damage and probably is going to win in consistency as well because of how well double attack and crit WSs work out.

If they would adjust the base multiplier for Death Blossom to 2.0 from 1.125 then we could have an actual race on WSs.

It wouldn't fix my discomfort that RDM is part mage and we don't show it when we WS. We don't even get access to any of the good Elemental WSs without picking a sub job. The reason I'm looking for an elemental WS is that physical WSs are inconsistent in their damage. They almost always deal better damage than Elemental WSs because of how poorly most Elemental WSs are designed, but crit and double attack are not factors you can count on outside of aby, even in the best WSs sets for a RDM. If we had a well designed Elemental WS we could rock the house on damage in a way that makes sense for a part mage to do so.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I know what you mean on the Occasionally attacks 2-3 times being nicely suited for physical WSs. But it also makes TPing a breeze. Death Blossom is already a 3 hit WS so you can technically hit 8 attacks without even having an offhand during WS. Is it going to be beat out max damage on CDC though? I don't think it will. I'm pretty sure dual wield and some decent double attack and crit gear is still going to win in max damage and probably is going to win in consistency as well because of how well double attack and crit WSs work out.

If they would adjust the base multiplier for Death Blossom to 2.0 from 1.125 then we could have an actual race on WSs.

It wouldn't fix my discomfort that RDM is part mage and we don't show it when we WS. We don't even get access to any of the good Elemental WSs without picking a sub job. The reason I'm looking for an elemental WS is that physical WSs are inconsistent in their damage. They almost always deal better damage than Elemental WSs because of how poorly most Elemental WSs are designed, but crit and double attack are not factors you can count on outside of aby, even in the best WSs sets for a RDM. If we had a well designed Elemental WS we could rock the house on damage in a way that makes sense for a part mage to do so.

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Well DA is something we can get large amounts of by easy gear and a single spell.

Req doesn't touch CDC, it's barely on par with vorpal. 100% MND and 5 hits is nice, but -20% attack pretty much wipes out it's damage potential.

Conditionally, I hope Requiescat will out damage CDC. Not under normal conditions, but under the condition that you are fighting something with extreme physical defense.

I agree RDM does fine with Double attack, but Crit is not so easy to come by for consistency, outside of aby. There are only a small handful of items that a RDM can acquire.

CDC could be beaten by a well designed Elemental WS. At least on RDM. BLU and PLD, probably not. They don't have the same access to MAB as RDM.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Conditionally, I hope Requiescat will out damage CDC. Not under normal conditions, but under the condition that you are fighting something with extreme physical defense.

I agree RDM does fine with Double attack, but Crit is not so easy to come by for consistency, outside of aby. There are only a small handful of items that a RDM can acquire.

CDC could be beaten by a well designed Elemental WS. At least on RDM. BLU and PLD, probably not. They don't have the same access to MAB as RDM.

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Maybe you don't understand, Req isn't a magic based WS. It's five +1 (/NIN) hits, 100% MND -20% attack and use's the regular physical WS formula. Mdiff and fINT have no effect on it at all, neither does M.acc or magic damage bonus (staff / atma). It's a physical WS period. It's only redeeming value is that it's damage subtype is unspecified similar to SWI / Atonement instead of slashing like the rest of the physical sword WS or piercing like physical dagger WS. So if the monster had 25% slashing resistance then that would be ignored for Req.

High defense on the other hand would crush Req damage even more then normal. That -20% penalty would become glaringly apparent. At 650 attack you would be WSing as though you had 520 attack. If the monster was the same level as you and had 400 defense you would go from 650/400 = 1.62 ratio to 520/400 = 1.3 ratio or at (1.62/1.3) = 1.246, 24.6% damage hit. If the monster is four levels above you then it becomes (1.62 - 0.2 = 1.42) vs (1.3 - 0.2 = 1.1) for (1.42/1.1 = 1.29) a 29% damage hit. And this isn't even talking the damage bonus that CDC gets with critical hits.

Now lets talk about crits, RDM doesn't have +crit damage but we're no slouch's. 5% crit from merits, 6% from neck piece and +15% from WS @100TP means 26% before dDEX. Wonderful thing about CDC is that since it's 60% DEX WSC you want to pile on DEX which happens to raise both your accuracy and base crit rate. So anywhere from 10~20% at dDEX=(40~50). So now we're talking 36~46% crit rate during a four hit WS (/NIN) that we can turn into a five hit on DA proc. So while we won't be busting out Ukon WAR damage, we won't be hitting for 600 either. The sheer amount of DEX/Acc we get means you'll be eating meat on most things, or pizza at worst.

So yeah, CDC > all right now. Req => DB depending. Req's 6 hit vs DB's 4 hit with WSC being about even between then (100% MND vs 30% STR 50% MND) but Req getting that atrocious attack penalty and db having a slightly higher fTP on first hit.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Death Blossom is already a 3 hit WS so you can technically hit 8 attacks without even having an offhand during WS.

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I'm not entirely sure how you get to 8 there. Could you elaborate?

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I'm not entirely sure how you get to 8 there. Could you elaborate?

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I have no idea how he's getting 8 without off hand on Req. 5 hit + 1 off hand = 6 and you can get up to two DA's during WS.

@468 enhancing magic I have +16% DA. Brutal and Atheling brings it to 24% DA, not sure if I have anymore +DA in my gear sets, don't think so. So a single DA happening every WS is going to be pretty common and a second one isn't going to be too uncommon. But you can only get 2 DA's or 1 TA per WS, so single handed we're looking at 7 hits maximum not 8.

Anyhow the -20% attack pretty much ruins your damage on anything T or higher.

The 2-3 effect on mythic works on weaponskills, apparently 40% chance for 'double'd attack' and 20% chance for 'triple'd attack' at 95.

Even then that comes up to 7 hits without offhand at a very low rate.

Oh, yeah, mythic aftermath. However, level 3 aftermath requires 300 TP, doesn't it?

Also, I was of the impression that you can get TA on the first hit (and once on the offhand hit if dualwielding), but still get DAs on the others. Is this wrong? I was also not aware of a two DAs per WS limit. The wiki doesn't say anything about such a limit either, only the max 8 hits per WS limit, which in many cases limits DA procs. Two DAs on evisceration and you're up at 8 hits already when dualwielding, for example. One TA and you're at 8 hits as well.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Oh, yeah, mythic aftermath. However, level 3 aftermath requires 300 TP, doesn't it?

Also, I was of the impression that you can get TA on the first hit (and once on the offhand hit if dualwielding), but still get DAs on the others. Is this wrong? I was also not aware of a two DAs per WS limit. The wiki doesn't say anything about such a limit either, only the max 8 hits per WS limit, which in many cases limits DA procs. Two DAs on evisceration and you're up at 8 hits already when dualwielding, for example. One TA and you're at 8 hits as well.

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Your allowed up to two additional hits procing during a WS tops. If you proc a TA then no other DA's can proc, if you proc one DA any additional TA's would just be treated as DA's. It's a limit SE put in the combat mechanics of the game.

And I'm not counting a mythic, ever. 12K~15K per alexandrite (checked earlier during my bazaar scanning). Turns into 360,000,000 ~ 450,000,000 gil. That's right 360 million.

SE was bat sh!t crazy when they made the 30K alex requirement. Just goes to show how completely out of touch they are. If you had that kind of gil then you'd be better of buying a relic, or two. If you farmed that much alex you can just sell it and then buy a relic and have gil to spare.

I wouldn't mind working on Mythic (eventually anyway) but ours is currently fairly worthless to only be used as a convert piece.

@ Saevel, I know Req isn't an elemental WS. Wow I misread the info I found on Req or it was just straight wrong because it sounded like it was supposed to be used against high defense mobs. I assumed you would want to use an Excaliber with it, but that would make too much sense for it to be true now that I take a step back.

I'm still looking for an entirely new Elemental WS that I can put my MAB to good use on.

I was not aware you couldn't do more than 2 additional attacks during a WS.

For +Critical hit damage, you can offhand an Oneiros Knife @ +10% Critical Damage. It has a delay of 150 and would be the only thing I want as much as a Mandau for an offhand for my Almace.

If they would make our mythic worth the effort to acquire I would start working on it instantly. We all know it sucks, regardless of how good it looks.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Wow I misread the info I found on Req or it was just straight wrong because it sounded like it was supposed to be used against high defense mobs.

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well, there could be some confusion around what is and is not high defense.. the simplest example i can give is.. crabs have high defense.. elementals don't. normally this is one of those things that only matters so far.. since either way.. you kinda sorta wanna nuke it.. the distinction comes into play in that normally, you could eventually overpower a mobs defense with enough attack, but you can't overpower a mobs damage resistance. since the attack function will eventually cap, then the resistance is applied afterward, even level 1 elementals act like they have high defense (or at least, way higher than other lvl 1 mobs)

requiscat is SUPPOSED to be a way around that, but since it has a pretty serious attack penalty applied to it, i doubt it will be all that good even against the mobs it's meant to be used on.. basically.. if you're fighting a mob strong enough to matter.. all requiscat will do is trade that damage resistance, for the effect of the mob BECOMING high defense (since you lost so much attack) it's sort of a why bother situation, i guess technically you could stack on massive amounts of att and in theory cap attack even with reqs -20%, but that will be impossible against most mobs of any merit. highly disappointing.


but while we're here.. what has anybody heard about the dagger weaponskill? is IT at least an upgrade over evisceration? i mean, still sucks if we're stuck using those 3 non magian daggers we have access to but it might be an upgrade at least?

Best unstacked dagger WS or so I heard, but agi mod means even more -inventory. Would be first time +agi on MKD hat would be useful (unless I get bersail/maat's)...

well that's something at least, if it's good enough you can mitigate inventory issues by just not carrying some of the old evisceration dex gear. since it's not like rdm is gonna be using sneak attack all that often with any ws, "best unstacked" to my ears just means "best" (i assume by stacked you mean stacking SA/TA/WS)

Sadly (for thf/dnc anyway) the weaponskill actually seemed to underperform stacked (yes, by stacking I mean SA/TA/Climactic) compared to other WS thf/dnc can use, but was beating DE/Evis (not that we can use DE anyway).

I'm still not seeing myself use the new Dagger WS on RDM. Our Dagger selection for a main hand is pretty much limited to a Mandau or....oh wait that is pretty much the only good dagger we get anymore. Twilight Knife looks cool and all but I'm not seeing myself putting down a sword for it.

I guess we got CDC and we should be thankful for it because we were treated like everyone else. Just seems silly, since we aren't like everyone else, but hey broad strokes save...dev time?

I would really like an elemental WS that is very potent, but you have to have a ton of MACC to actually land it unresisted.

RDM Murgleis and BLU Tizona would profit.