New Job Trait: Limber ("Tactical Evade")

Introduction

Hello again! You guys must be tired of suggestion threads from me by now, I'm sure! Anyway, without further ado...

Tactical Parry is an interesting job trait in that it gives an offensive bonus for an uncontrollable defensive action. Despite increasing in tiers to a respectable level, it is devalued in that its bonus is rarely seen due to the priority of evasion versus parry. I would like to suggest a similar job ability for evasion - although I think the name "Tactical Evade" sounds a little awkward. As for nomenclature, I'd suggest the name "Limber."

I realize that TP generally comes from one of the following sources: executing an action, receiving damage, or a magical source. In this case, it would fall under the "executing an action" category. The idea is that "Limber" grants you the ability to occasionally perform a special type of evasive maneuver (with extra flair!) which gives you a slight edge over your opponent.

Implementation

There are several jobs that are capable of achieving a highly significant evasion rate versus even high level enemies. It is obvious that if "Tactical Evade" worked as Tactical Parry does (TP is granted with every parried attack), there would be severe balance implications. For this reason, I'm not suggesting this. My suggestion is as follows:

1. For a character with this trait, a small amount of TP (~2) will be granted some set % of the time when evading an attack.
2. The trait should have multiple tiers. Tiers will not increase the amount of TP granted per activation, instead will increase the activation rate.
3. The trait can be enhanced by gear in two ways. Either by increasing the amount of TP granted by a small amount, or by increasing the activation rate.

I'd suggest the tiers work like this:

Limber I: 2TP granted 5% of the time upon successfully evading an attack
Limber II 2TP granted 10% of the time upon successfully evading an attack
Limber III 2TP granted 15% of the time upon successfully evading an attack.
Limber IV 2 TP granted 20% of the time upon successfully evading an attack.

As for jobs to receive it, I feel like the following jobs fit the theme of gaining an offensive advantage when evading an attack:

Thief: The most evasive job in the game - a job traditionally admired for its agility and sneakiness. It makes sense that a THF could gain a slight offensive advantage for successfully dodging an attack.
Puppetmaster: The second most evasive job in the game, and brilliant performance artists.
Dancer: Perhaps more than all the others, this fits the theme of the Dancer class. Members of perhaps the most TP-oriented class in the game, Dancers are renowned for their graceful steps on the battlefield and gaining the edge on the enemy with a flashy sidestep falls right up their ally.
Ninja: Sneaky, evasive assassins who thrive on their ability to draw attacks away from themselves and gain an offensive edge on their enemies through their abilities. Obviously, Limber would not activate on an attack absorbed by shadows, however.

Levels

This ability should be introduced at low levels to certain jobs, such that they might receive higher tiers (since some jobs should be more proficient than others), and provide a benefit when used as a support job. I propose the following level spread:

• Dancer: Limber I would be obtained at level 25, Limber II at level 49, Limber III at level 73, Limber IV at level 97. The DNC class would receive the highest benefit from this ability due to their reliance on both evasion and TP gain. Additionally, the popular Dancer support job would provide Limber II, a 10% activation rate for support jobs.
• Puppetmaster: Limber I would be obtained at level 30, Limber II at level 60, and Limber III at level 90. As a "performing arts" related job, a higher bonus is obtained than the remaining two.
• Ninja: Limber I would be obtained at level 45, Limber II would be obtained at level 90. Once again, as a popular subjob, a small bonus would be gained.
• Thief: Limber I would be obtained at level 50, Limber II would be obtained at level 99.

Gear Enhancements

Here are some examples about how gear enhancing "Limber" might look like:

Acrobat's Hose
LV 91 MNK / THF / RNG / SAM/ NIN / PUP / COR / DNC
AGI + 7 Evasion + 10
Limber + 5

Equipment with "Limber + X" would increase the activation rate for Limber by X%

Half-Cape
LV96 THF / NIN / PUP / DNC
Evasion + 7
Enhances Limber effect.

Equipment with "Enhances Limber effect" would increase the TP gained from Limber by 1.

Discussion

I find that abilities which give offensive bonuses for uncontrollable defensive actions to be highly interesting, and I think that this particular ability would be a strong asset to all of the jobs mentioned in my implementation, without tipping game balance.

Please discuss this idea, and any ideas of your own.

Thank you for your time and consideration!

New Information
In response to multiple questions about the power of this ability, the choice as to which tier each job can get, and some general comments on new ideas:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

I set the activation rate pretty low for that exact reason. Most enemies attack with 240 delay, or once per 4 seconds:
So even at the maximum 20% chance I have set obtainable naturally, since evasion caps at 80%, you'd only be activating 16% of the time.

Assuming the monster is attacking with 240 delay (once per 4 seconds), it would take 1250 seconds (20 minutes) to see a full 100TP come from this JT.

In the ~30 seconds it takes to get 100TP for a fast attacking job like DNC or NIN, you'd only see, on average, 1 activation of Limber (assuming capped evade rate) - a meager 2TP contribution.

Other stipulations I'm considering for this Job Trait:

1.) You must be engaged to receive the bonus
2.) When multiple targets are attacking, the activation rate is halved for each additional target (flooring at 1%). From a "lore" standpoint, it's because multiple attackers would be distracting. From a balance standpoint, it's to prevent large TP gains from holding multiple enemies.
3.) Limber should have 100% activation during Perfect Dodge.

Notes:

1.) I've given DNC the highest tier for the same reason DNC has the highest tier of Tactical Parry - it's the most TP reliant job.
2.) I've not given THF the highest tier specifically because THF is the most evasive job (in other words, a THF has to make fewer offensive sacrifices to maintain a high evasion rate), although I'm considering giving it Tier III in my design.
3.) My other idea was to leave THF at Tier II naturally and provide it with JSE gear to allow it to match DNC in it, with interesting bonuses specific to THF:

Fingerless Gloves (Hands)
THF 98
Attack - 5 Evasion + 10
Limber + 3 Limber: Critical Strike (After limber activates, your next regular melee attack will be a critical hit)

Thoughts?
(Updating first post with this information)

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If this came out, THF should get all 4 tiers. We are the BEST Evasion job, period. Not giving us all 4 would be a slap to the face.

Samurai, Thief, Corsair, and Ninja are the best Parrying classes, and only one of them gets Tactical Parry (NIN). So really, that's not necessarily a reason for getting a full-powered ability at all.

In fact, from a balance perspective, you could argue that the naturally higher evasion rate is a reason to not give THF the full powered trait, since a THF has to make fewer DD(haste) sacrifices to maintain capped (or high) evasion rate.

Regardless, I set it this way based on the theme of "graceful movement." Dancers and Puppetmasters would have calculated movements as part of their trade, and would naturally move more gracefully than a Thief or Ninja, whose areas of expertise are stealth, not performance. So I like game lore to matter a little. Shoot me.

I approve.

... What? Good thing there isn't a Graceful stat am I right? And don't bring up CHR, that's BS. But here is the thing. THFs aren't always in an environment that requires them to be sneaky, some times they have to use finesse to swindle good people of their money. As such, so do Ninja when they need assassinate someone, some times the best way to do it is by blending in and acting like a normal person. If these aren't qualities of grace, than I must not know what it means.

Anyways, as a job that has the highest skill, and the highest job trait for evasion it only MAKES sense that they'd get the highest tier of this. In fact, PUP being on this doesn't make very much sense at all. If anything SAM being on it makes more sense as a job that relies on TP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiomi

Anyways, as a job that has the highest skill, and the highest job trait for evasion it only MAKES sense that they'd get the highest tier of this.

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I'll repeat:

Samurai, Thief, Corsair, and Ninja are the best Parrying classes (all have A-), and only one of them gets Tactical Parry (NIN).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

I'll repeat:

Samurai, Thief, Corsair, and Ninja are the best Parrying classes (all have A-), and only one of them gets Tactical Parry (NIN).

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So all job traits must be equal? Shit, Ranger has some of the worst Evasion in game, let' give them "Limber" much like how SE gave Tactical Parry to Dark Knight. That makes a bunch of freaking sense. By that logic, you are no better than SE.

All I'm saying is that being the best at something doesn't necessarily mean you get a job trait to augment it. I don't know where you got Ranger from. It's only on the pants because RNG can traditionally equip "hose" type armor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

All I'm saying is that being the best at something doesn't necessarily mean you get a job trait to augment it. I don't know where you got Ranger from. It's only on the pants because RNG can traditionally equip "hose" type armor.

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I like RNG. It was on the mind. :(

Oh, and it was just an example as to why your logic didn't make sense to me. I think if you are the best at something, you should be given the ability to fully augment it.

Well for example, DNC gets the highest tier of tactical parry, but it's not the best parrying job, for what I'm guessing is the "graceful movement" idea

I would see a THF or NIN having more "pragmatic" movements. To be honest, I almost suggested MNK be added (martial arts are all about form), but I decided against it for balance reasons.

The one problem I see with Limber is this:

In the cases of Shield Mastery, Tactical Parry, and Tactical Guard there is direct contact between your shield/weapon/fist and the enemy which is where the TP comes from. In the case of Evasion, there is no contact thus nowhere for the TP to come from.

It would be cool, but unfortunately, with how TP works, it does not make sense.

Is there even more then one tier of tac. parry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Is there even more then one tier of tac. parry?

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Yeah, goes up to tier IV. Which only DNC obtains. So LOL at people wanting to give DNC even more with this when they only have B+ Evasion over the A+ and A- jobs. It's already bad enough they have tier IV with their crappy B Parrying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Yeah, goes up to tier IV. Which only DNC obtains. So LOL at people wanting to give DNC even more with this when they only have B+ Evasion over the A+ and A- jobs. It's already bad enough they have tier IV with their crappy B Parrying.

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Well you know, DNC Is the most TP reliant job. So yeah, more ways to obtain TP isn't really a stretch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

Well you know, DNC Is the most TP reliant job. So yeah, more ways to obtain TP isn't really a stretch.

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I'm not disagreeing on them getting the ability, persay, I do think if added they should get lesser tiers to THF and NIN. That said, Evasion activates far more often when compared to Shield (bar Ochain) and Parrying so they'd need to be really careful with the trait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Evasion activates far more often when compared to Shield (bar Ochain) and Parrying so they'd need to be really careful with the trait.

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Yeah, I set the activation level pretty low for that reason. It would be entirely broken with a high activation rate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoraeon

The one problem I see with Limber is this:

In the cases of Shield Mastery, Tactical Parry, and Tactical Guard there is direct contact between your shield/weapon/fist and the enemy which is where the TP comes from. In the case of Evasion, there is no contact thus nowhere for the TP to come from.

It would be cool, but unfortunately, with how TP works, it does not make sense.

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Well, we don't actually know how TP works exactly or what it is, even. You also get TP from getting hit by a spell, and then there's Occult Acumen, which allows you to gain TP when casting an offensive spell. You can "spirit" it up through meditate or a spell, or use the energy built up from successful dance moves to produce it (some of which - No Foot Rise - are movements which imply no contact with the enemy). Sometimes, it just regenerates on its own. You also gain TP from a ranged attack, and you never come into direct contact with the target there, either.

Just like HP/MP, there appear to be a wide variety of sources where TP can come from. It's obviously some sort of "spiritual" energy which can be charged and discharged, and I see no reason why it might not come from executing a particularly intricate evade.

If this came out and THF didn't have the highest tier I would crush my own head into a diamond.

I think THF/PUP SHould get the highest Tiers (IV), DNC up to III, and NIN II.

PUP Has second highest base evasion in the game with their Job Traits counted (I think!), DNC is close behind, and NIN is slightly further down the stretch due to no natural EVA bonus traits.

But yah, The idea is pretty decent... as far as "Being hit for TP", Dodging an attack can give you a tactical advantage... so there is some foundation for TP For Dodging. However small it may be

Yeah I would say Evasion activates far to often myself, maybe just give them a "Auto-Regain" and get it over with like when SE gave PLD Auto-refresh.

Edit: or you can finish the WoTg missions.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Moonshade_Earring

"Regain+1" isn't so bad!

I don't really like this, especially if Ninja gets it.

TP for being hit, TP for parrying, TP for evading, TP for hitting.

I do agree with you Deadvinta, I don't really like it as well, Would be a bit much.

I set the activation rate pretty low for that exact reason. Most enemies attack with 240 delay, or once per 4 seconds:
So even at the maximum 20% chance I have set obtainable naturally, since evasion caps at 80%, you'd only be activating 16% of the time.

Assuming the monster is attacking with 240 delay (once per 4 seconds), it would take 1250 seconds (20 minutes) to see a full 100TP come from this JT.

In the ~30 seconds it takes to get 100TP for a fast attacking job like DNC or NIN, you'd only see, on average, 1 activation of Limber (assuming capped evade rate) - a meager 2TP contribution.

Other stipulations I'm considering for this Job Trait:

1.) You must be engaged to receive the bonus
2.) When multiple targets are attacking, the activation rate is halved for each additional target (flooring at 1%). From a "lore" standpoint, it's because multiple attackers would be distracting. From a balance standpoint, it's to prevent large TP gains from holding multiple enemies.
3.) Limber should have 100% activation during Perfect Dodge.

Notes:

1.) I've given DNC the highest tier for the same reason DNC has the highest tier of Tactical Parry - it's the most TP reliant job.
2.) I've not given THF the highest tier specifically because THF is the most evasive job (in other words, a THF has to make fewer offensive sacrifices to maintain a high evasion rate), although I'm considering giving it Tier III in my design.
3.) My other idea was to leave THF at Tier II naturally and provide it with JSE gear to allow it to match DNC in it, with interesting bonuses specific to THF:

Fingerless Gloves (Hands)
THF 98
Attack - 5 Evasion + 10
Limber + 3 Limber: Critical Strike (After limber activates, your next regular melee attack will be a critical hit)

Thoughts?
(Updating first post with this information)

I really don't see where your coming on this one. The reward and disadvantage of evasion is that no one gets TP, attacker or defender. Now imagine if you gave this quality to an NM, or even better an NM with perfect dodge... The idea of tactical parry, tactical guard, critical defense bonus, ect. traits were to give something new but standard for 75+ jobs. The jobs you are saying should get this needless ability already have such traits and more.



Also in your "best evasion jobs" you missed Samurai and Monk, where monk can easily equal Puppetmaster's evasion, and Samurais forget they have evasion because they were too busy zerging.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaiben

The idea of tactical parry, tactical guard, critical defense bonus, ect. traits were to give something new but standard for 75+ jobs. The jobs you are saying should get this needless ability already have such traits and more.

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I usually try to avoid being rude, but were you going to make a logical argument or something? It sounded like you were trying to, and then just stopped cold. "I don't think this is needed" isn't a valid logical argument. Justify why you think it would be overpowered, broken, or alter job balance, if you want to contribute to the discussion. I've deliberately set the bonus to be quite small, and I've provided numbers to show that. Your argument about "the advantage and disadvantage of evasion is that neither party gets TP" is invalidated because the same can be said for Parry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaiben

Now imagine if you gave this quality to an NM, or even better an NM with perfect dodge...

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Sounds fun. It's a lot better than the +10/ric regain that a lot of NMs have. Also, it's not like you can't turn around during perfect dodge, you wouldn't be hitting it anyway ;/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaiben

Also in your "best evasion jobs" you missed Samurai and Monk, where monk can easily equal Puppetmaster's evasion, and Samurais forget they have evasion because they were too busy zerging.

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SAM and MNK do not get Evasion Bonus traits. PUP is naturally more evasive naturally than MNK due to this fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

Justify why you think it would be overpowered, broken, or alter job balance, if you want to contribute to the discussion.

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I would say giving Auto-Regain 1/tic and getting that Regain+1/tic earring would be better off I think, waiting 20mins for 100TP not many stay in one zone that long unless it's in port Jeuno.

Parrying, Player "Action"
Shield blocking, Player "Action"
Melee, Player "Action"
Guard, Player "action"
Damage, Where there's an action, There is a reaction.
Evade, Opponent misses you or you miss opponent.

Edit: Let say Mob1 was "Meleeing" Mob2 where Mob1 "MISSED" Mob2 didn't throw feathers nor fart in their direction, Mob1 is just gimp and their "Action" Failed Visaversa.


After all any job can and will evade, Its just some are kinda... "Mastered" it better then others.

Of course auto-regain is better. This ability isn't supposed to be as powerful as auto-regain or anything like that. Also, the fact that we have to INCREASE our "Evasion" stat (To evade: "To get away from by artifice; to avoid by dexterity, subterfuge, address, or ingenuity; to elude; to escape from cleverly; as, to evade a blow, a pursuer, a punishment; to evade the force of an argument.") Implies that evading can be an action.

The simple fact that increasing your evasion and decreasing the opponent's accuracy have the same exact mathematical effect implies that mobs both MISS and we DODGE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deadvinta

I don't really like this, especially if Ninja gets it.

TP for being hit, TP for parrying, TP for evading, TP for hitting.

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I wasn't aware Ninjas used shields.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deadvinta

I wasn't aware Ninjas used shields.

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oh my bad Deadvinta, I thought ya was quoting all possible TP actions, not just Ninja it self.

Not giving Thief the highest tier of this would be like giving DRK tactical parry at all.

Oh wait.


Don't be a fool, don't encourage dev stupidity.

THF Tactical Evasion max tier. Derp.