How to fix pld as tank??

I think one good idea a frined told me sense i never realy did level pld myself but they suggest giving pld its own version of pervoke. Make it stronger then war's that would prob let it take hate more effectly

Voke wont matter when the DD he's trying to keep hate off of has max hate as well.

SE already stated that PLD will never get its own provoke type ability

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Originally Posted by Ritsuka

How to fix pld as tank??

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PLD isn't broken.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

PLD isn't broken.

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This.

Pld just isn't as effective a tank as it used to be due to DDs having become extremely powerful. Especially in abyssea obviously. A provoke ability for pld isn't going to fix that at all. It's also not even needed as tank for most things these days.

Have all of the DD's pull back on their WS' and DMG, have SATA return, and only nuke on MB's!

Fixed!

I think PLD need job ability or spell to hate reset.

Monsters are doing this to mess up with PLD tanks, so why can't PLD take this matter in their own hands?

No matter how much enmity increase for PLD, as long as DD hitting hard, it turn back into the old cycle. and THey cannot possibly make PLD a better DD, becoz it is how they define PLD.

Then a better way to make PLD better is to let PLD hold the power to reset hate for their own advantage. No matter how much accumulate enmity the DD put on the mob, if PLD can wipe them all at their will, they can take control back.

Monsters being cheap is fine because the computer is a cheating bastard.

I don't think I should have to explain why your idea is kinda.. broken if a Pld was able to never lose hate ever.

Paladins can be fixed by having its class exclusively raise the cap in enmity generation, along with having an ability like enmity douse to be used on allies. Some harsh drop in enmity from an ally, maybe ten minute recast.

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Originally Posted by Deadvinta

Paladins can be fixed by having its class exclusively raise the cap in enmity generation, along with having an ability like enmity douse to be used on allies. Some harsh drop in enmity from an ally, maybe ten minute recast.

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Then the job becomes broken.. It basically would allow PLD to always tank, while the DD's have little to fear of dying outside of AoE. This is not the way it should be.

Honestly they should get their own enmity transfer abilities like THF does.

Anyhow, it's extremely dishonestly to talk about hate cap without also talking about the DIFFERENT hate caps. There are two hate metrics that are added together to determine who has enmity. CE is the hate you get from damage and caps at 10000, it's ridiculously easy to cap and only goes down when you take damage. VE is the hate generated by abilities like provoke and some spells. VE has the same cap as CE but goes down at a rate of 60 units per second. Since every can cap CE easily, VE should be where tanking is focused on. PLD should get a job trait that lowers VE decay rate along with a set of abilities that give periodic VE generation in excess of the decay rate.

CE is ridiculously easy to cap compared to VE? On Paladin?

lol.

Practically any WS or JA will cap VE after one or two uses, and it's extraordinarily easy to maintain VE via melee swings.

On the flipside, Paladin has no half-decent CE generating abilities. That is, unless you consider Flash's average 240 and maximum 360 CE per 23 seconds "good".

CE is primarily generated through damage. Damage is not something PLD excels at. Thus, CE is not something PLD excels at. It can cap it, sure, who the hell can't cap Enmity? But it's certainly not a class exclusive thing - it's harder to deal with CE on Paladin than any other melee job.

Also, Provoke is net negative Enmity. Stop asking for it.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Then the job becomes broken..

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Wouldn't be the first!

PLD is fine. Build an Ochain.

For all the people about to Q.Q "awwz but i shouldn't have to build an empyrean for my job to be useless."

Wake up, unless you're a mage job - end game content as it is pretty much requires some form of end game weapon.

You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.

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Not sure who you party with, but no. And building an Ochain is still a bitch. Either way, no.

PLD: i'm hungry !
"Insert PLD Ability Name Here" - Consumes the Enmity of Party Members at the cost of TP/MP/HP whatever
PLD: tasty!

(recast 3-5-10min?)

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Originally Posted by Alderin

PLD is fine. Build an Ochain.

For all the people about to Q.Q "awwz but i shouldn't have to build an empyrean for my job to be useless."

Wake up, unless you're a mage job - end game content as it is pretty much requires some form of end game weapon.

You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.

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i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars

Ya, i agree with the idea of raising hate cap for PLD exclusively... While DDs are able to reach 100% hate cap, PLD should be able to boost up to 110%, its not a huge margain but if would help with hate control and still allow DDs to pull hate. Big problem is, as PLD takes dmg, hate is slowly decreasing; so if cap was increased to 110%, taking dmg would be more suddly and allow pld more time to get hate w/o dropping below 100% while dds are maxed out at 100%. SE can implement that throw merits, like a Job trait you can merit. It could be a meritable job trait similar to overwhelm, where once u merit it it remains active all times.

Ex: Merit catagory 3 - "Escutcheon" Potential emnity cap is raised by 2% with each merit implanted.

So if you can use 5/5 merits, it can increase to 110%.

PLD isnt broken, but more like most DD's dont take in consideration of hate control. Seems like DDs forgot uses of /thf and mages starting nukes with lower tier rather than spammin T5 spells from start of a fight. Hate control doesnt always come from the pld.. but the ppl around him, thats why emn is so seperate from hate. Not truely factual but just my opinion lol

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Originally Posted by Brolic

i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars

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Not completely, but it's a good start. Shield Mastery allows PLD to gain TP rapidly with Ochain, and Chant du Cygne or Requiescat will be able to put out good ish numbers. That way, PLD will be able to gain both VE and CE fast enough, and not only that, but by taking very little damage they'll also lose little enmity.

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Originally Posted by KoKoMonsta

Ya, i agree with the idea of raising hate cap for PLD exclusively... While DDs are able to reach 100% hate cap, PLD should be able to boost up to 110%, its not a huge margain but if would help with hate control and still allow DDs to pull hate.

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Wrong, DDs wouldn't be able to pull hate, unless PLD takes massive damage to take out a good portion of its CE. Apart from that PLD would keep hate indefinitely. Raising hate cap is no solution.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Not sure who you party with, but no. And building an Ochain is still a bitch. Either way, no.

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Hmmm... That was my point exactly?

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Originally Posted by Brolic

i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars

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They deflect them like a mirror yo... Didn't say that though - Enmity issues are a complete different kettle of fish.

I will admit, I am guilty of originally reading the title and assumed this was going to be one of those "fix PLD so I can tank without building an empyrean or relic" threads that we got riddled with. So I do semi-retract my original post after reading this thread a little more.


PLD enmity is an issue and always will be with the current hate system. I believe the only real solution would be to completely remove non-decaying enmity and give all enmity some way to decay over time (say if a Ukon war hits the hate cap, their previous "non decay enmity" would start to decay. Basically meaning that if a DD really wants to lose hate, best way would be to disengage and wait while their enmity starts to deplete. If enmity was totally shared amoung the alliance on a percentage basis, without a non-decay variable then it would allow a PLD to hold hate better.

Lets assume we have 4 jobs already on a hate list - with equal share of 25% PLD / WAR / WHM / BLM.. As the PLD keeps building hate, the enmity towards the other 3 would decrease (PLD gets to say 30%, so the WAR, WHM, BLM slowly deplete at an even rate. If say the WAR decided to start zerging, the other 3 job's enmity would start to decay. The advantage of a PLD at this rate would be the ability to effectively "steal" the Warrior's hate by decaying it once the WAR disengages or slows it's damage.

I am not entirely sure if this is kind of what is already in place, but the fact that there is an actual "hate cap" that no one player can have more non-decay enmity then another is beyond me... I say remove non-decay enmity and base it purely on decaying enmity. I am no programmer - nor do I know how enmity is really "modelled" but removing non-decay enmity makes more sense to me.

Anyway that is how to "improve" PLD's ability to hold hate in my eyes.

Simple suggestion to losing hate as pld cure the dd especially the 1 with most hate, then provoke/flash or whatever ability like sentinel. Hate does reset alot on certain monsters but it's not hard to get it back.

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Originally Posted by Rorald

Simple suggestion to losing hate as pld cure the dd especially the 1 with most hate, then provoke/flash or whatever ability like sentinel. Hate does reset alot on certain monsters but it's not hard to get it back.

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The problem is that once you all reach the cap, the mob is going to be spinning like a top as it faces each person who has capped hate.

Once this happens, PLD practically becomes a burden on the party because not only are you not fully tanking the mob, but you also aren't dealing any good damage.

Damage mitigation and survivability have never been the issue. PLD is honestly not broken. The issue has been that PLD don't have the damage output to make them appealing for a larger group. Unless your DD are willing to hold back, you aren't going to be a successful tank, through no fault of your own.

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.

That would have been the case, then SE screwed even that up by giving an alternative, and refreshing temps on weakness procs.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

That would have been the case, then SE screwed even that up by giving an alternative, and refreshing temps on weakness procs.

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Pretty much. I "tank" Voidwatch NMs on COR half the time since job doesn't really matter when you're riding >9,000 temps and Fanatic's.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.

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like the good old sky days i'm up for it!

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Monsters being cheap is fine because the computer is a cheating bastard.

I don't think I should have to explain why your idea is kinda.. broken if a Pld was able to never lose hate ever.

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Perhaps not 'Never lose hate' but some sort of resistance or immunity to hate reset would actually prove useful against newer mobs that like to be a dick.

Pld Can do good numbers with excaliber and Almace if you have the right gear swaps. I see many pld weaponskill without gear swapping doing crap damage and losing hate instantly to a dd. I myself and Awsome have never had too many issues with losing hate. When we do, it is only for like 2-3 seconds then mob is back on us. Then again we played pld for like 8-9+ years and know the in and out of the job, not to mention Aegis and Ochain make the fights extremely easy.

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Originally Posted by Rorald

Pld Can do good numbers with excaliber and Almace if you have the right gear swaps. I see many pld weaponskill without gear swapping doing crap damage and losing hate instantly to a dd. I myself and Awsome have never had too many issues with losing hate. When we do, it is only for like 2-3 seconds then mob is back on us. Then again we played pld for like 8-9+ years and know the in and out of the job, not to mention Aegis and Ochain make the fights extremely easy.

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i was with you till you said excalibur

Excal really isn't that bad, to be honest. It never was. KOR is just shit. Vorpal spamming can still be pretty solid and the add effects add up.

i know, just having a go at Rorald, he's actually one of the best plds across all servers.

Ya that might work but your thinking ppl know how to play there job which almost all don't anymore lol

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Originally Posted by Alerith

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.

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Never happened.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.

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Mnk dose pretty well on a lot of them actualy.

Is what you do is take teh hate off of cure IV, lower it's cost a little, then give pld a trait that gives it more hate for curing.

Eh. Pld has it's own little niche now. It's there for when you don't actually want to kill the monster. Or at least before stupid procs are landed.Using anything else might accidentally result in people beating the monster.

actually pld's niche is for new mobs till people figure out a quick and easy way to kill it.

The "quick and easy way to kill it" has a suspiciously high tendency to be the exact same way it was for the mobs before so i seriously doubt that counts.

The quick and easy way to kill it often results in not getting full procs. Which noone wants in VW with the awful drop rate.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The quick and easy way to kill it often results in not getting full procs. Which noone wants in VW with the awful drop rate.

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That's only if you suck unless you're talking about t1 city mobs. Synchronotic blitz bonuses and EV procs make it ridiculously easy to get capped while killing asap in a pickup. Even without the ev procs i've been seeing pickups capping easily while killing fairly fast.

heres a idea why not for example say hate cap is 30 why not just up it for pld to 40 so as long as the pld does his job hate could not be pulled off him

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Originally Posted by zataz

heres a idea why not for example say hate cap is 30 why not just up it for pld to 40 so as long as the pld does his job hate could not be pulled off him

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Exactly, no one at all could pull hate off the PLD. What's the point of that?