Just out of curiosity.
The mass majority who play on PC use Windower. I'm wondering what SE's stance on windower is, and whether it's changed over the past few years.
There used to be a time when people would fear even mentioning windower in game, but now it seems like people are open about it and SE seem to be turning the other cheek.
I'm just curious about it.
Also if anyone has any idea, do the majority of JP players on PC use windower? Or a similar application?
SE's stance on Windower
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12-02-2011, 11:06 PMFlionheartSE's stance on Windower
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12-03-2011, 12:01 AMArcon
Same as always I'm guessing, "No comment". They just don't like to talk about it, I don't think we'll ever get a response on here (or anywhere)
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12-03-2011, 04:10 AMGodofgodsProbably'Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
If they banned every pc player that used that program, they wouldnt have much of a player base left, so that is out of the question. But at the same time they dont want to publicly indorce it. So their only option rly is to keep quite about it. -
12-03-2011, 07:19 AMZiyyigo-Tipyigo
Their official stance will be to have no official stance, as it leaves them to drop the ban hammer at whim without having to listen to others trying to report violations.
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12-03-2011, 08:36 AMTsukino_Kaji
A 3rd pt program that alters the game to run in windowed mode is still a violation of the ToS and is a bannable offence.
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12-03-2011, 01:45 PMRhianuOnly on their official documents, which don't necessarily match up with what they actually practice. Most customer agreements exist only to cover the company's rear, not to provide the customer with an accurate idea of what the company actually does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
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12-03-2011, 01:52 PMShadowsong
Given the fact that; A) Its undetectable B) It's been around for nearly a decade C) Somehow banning users would cut their profits and D) It actually makes the game better without them actually having to do anything
A + B + C + D = They look the other way, like a Mob hit lol -
12-03-2011, 04:57 PMTohihroyu
http://mychinaconnection.com/wp-cont...qq-dot-com.jpg
That is their stance. -
12-03-2011, 05:14 PMMichae
they ignore it and even went as far as to incorperate some of the windower options into xiv's ui so that tells u that
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12-03-2011, 09:16 PMIhnako
The windower is detectable - you just have to look/search closely.
Easiest way - search all open accessabel forums and media sources and you'll have a clue who is using the windower.
Point is - there is the ToS that says - it's forbidden, but on the other hand side some of these 3'rd party tools enhance the game experience while not altering the game mechanics. So at least SE has the option to kick your butt in case you'll become anoying.
In other words - SE's stance is RTFM and you'll know their stance. -
12-04-2011, 12:52 PMShadowsong
Hahaha fair enough, but by that logic 99% of people use it :P (which actually may not be too far off)
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12-06-2011, 03:31 AMSappho
From what I have read about Windower, it does a couple of things that I'm sure SE developers don't want. The range finder is the only thing that I can remember off the top of my head. SE is so mysterious about letting information out, I think they'd probably have a fit over players knowing exactly how far they are from a mob rather than having to eyeball it.
As a player who refuses to use 3rd party programs, I don't think windower does anything that a player really *needs*
Sure, it makes some things easier, but easier =/= better IMO.
I'm just not willing to risk losing my account for a few things that let me be lazy. -
12-06-2011, 01:22 PMShadowsong
Agreed. Out of all the plugins, Distancer has helped the most. As a BST, knowing the exact max distance for Charm + Fight was a game changer (also as a RNG main, for obvious reasons)
I'm not sure what you mean by risking your account though, Windower is undetectible. It's like SE knowing you have a porn tab open in your web browser, or them knowing you have your computer volume on Mute. -
12-07-2011, 12:18 AMlllen
A few months ago 3 friends were ban for using Windower (1 Week). They were picked up because they were discussing how to fix it in /tell. It seems they have some kind of recognition program when you use certain words.
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12-07-2011, 06:58 AMRAIST
eh...there is probably a lot of wiggle room from a legal standpoint because of how windower works. I'm a bit foggy on all the details of how it worked, but if I remember right, they set that up to gather all it's info from the log file, which gets written to your drive. At that point, you have the right to read what is in the file. The viaolation may come in when you get to the point of writing into the UI though, I guess. But, they may get around that with a loophole too by writing to their own DX overlay, which would just happen to also be rendering the FFXI UI (sort of like a wrapper to the wrapper kind of thing, I guess). Again, a bit foggy on how it all works in the background, but it seems there are a lot of points that could actually hold up in the legal sense....and it's best for them to just ignore it for the most part. Kind of like them not extending Crysta to some regions because there is too much potential legal hassle because of that region's Virtual Property laws. They could do it, but users would have the potential to file for reimbursements and what not, so they just chose not to offer it at all.
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12-07-2011, 07:16 AMDaniel_HatcherNothing is truly undetectable, I'm sure if SE wanted to they could find out if you're using it, and even keep disabling it in updates, making it near worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsong
That said, they would go more on people being so blatant about using it, AKA: you.
I don't know! The infinite macro system sounds nice, but hey, whatever!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sappho
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12-07-2011, 12:55 PMShadowsong
I think my stance on Windower itself shows you how little they care, and that there are entire threads about how to install and troubleshoot it.
I also shout about windower all the time when people ask troubleshooting questions in game, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did have a pattern recognition program though.
And it is undetectible I don't know what to tell you lol. Like I said, it would be as if they knew what tabs were open in your browser, or them knowing that your sister was playing WoW on your network. It's an independantly run program that simply overlays FFXI
edit: The infinite macro is badass lol, though I only ever really get a use out of it on RNG where I set it to spam ranged attacks on the <bt> -
12-07-2011, 01:37 PMMirageIt's detectable in the same way as the color of my socks is detectable by other members on this forum, yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihnako
There is (currently) no way for the game servers to know whether or not someone is using windower. As far as I know, the windower code never automatically sends any sort of data to the server, and it does not alter the game's code or data. It is only possible to find out if a player manually generates evidence of it and makes this evidence publically accessible. It is also possibly detectable by processes that run outside of the FF11 (and windower) process, but SE does currently not use such programs with FF11.
It is against the terms of service, yes, just like foul language ingame is against the ToS. If SE had a 100% zero-tolerance policy on the use of Windower, it would be unproblematic for community representatives to tell us this policy in one of the numerous threads about windower. So far, there has been no such thing, which implies that SE as a whole isn't 100% certain what they think of it.
They might see windower as a necessary evil, a program that does some things that are clearly beneficial to the game's community, and at the same time has some features that they would rather not be used. However, it is not always good for a company to announce to the world that there are internal disagreements on some matters, and that they are uncertain on what course of action they should take, therefore they ignore the direct questions for now. -
12-07-2011, 01:54 PMShadowsong
I wouldn't be surprised if the conversation went like this at SE-
Guy 1: Hey this Windower thing is letting player's do things they otherwise wouldnt be able to do
Guy 2: But hey, now we don't have to upgrade those portions of the game at all!
Guy 1: Eureka!!! -
12-07-2011, 02:10 PMChriscoffey
It was slightly detectable because of the packets being transmitted in rapid succession from Light Luggage plugin from my best recollection. It wasn't a 100% method but for them server side it showed some mysterious influx spam of packets needing to be sent back. If anyone has an objection to this please correct me but from my past forum reading I came across this same topic.
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12-07-2011, 02:53 PMMirage
Yes, lightluggage does that, but that is also a plugin to windower, not windower itself
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12-07-2011, 03:47 PMEconomizer
It is possible to detect file reads. Thus, it is detectable with some work. There are a variety of other detection methods that could be used in tandem, and if SE really wanted to, they could crack down on it hard and give a temp ban warning to third party tool users en masse with the warning of a permaban if they detect you again. They would be well within their rights to do so.
Not saying that SE should or should not do any of those things, but they could. -
12-07-2011, 04:40 PMArconNot sure what you're talking about, but to my knowledge LightLuggage doesn't rapidly transmit anything. It lots or passes items in your treasure pool, with a random delay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
That wouldn't work because technically Windower itself isn't "running". It's not a seperate process to FFXI, it runs a modified version of FFXI. But it doesn't modify any of the FFXI files itself, only the startup process, and after that it just reads information from memory and sends commands to POL (I don't think any plugin sends information directly to the server).Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
I don't know of any way to detect Windower at all, unless you're using it to make retarded macro-loops (like hitting the exact same macro every second for five days straight... I doubt a human could or would do that). Still, technically, it wouldn't be "proof" that a machine was at work. -
12-07-2011, 04:51 PMShadowsong
^
Also along those lines, they could see that everytime your character obtains a crystal, it is dropped .0001 seconds later lol. But again, that's not "proof" of anything. -
12-07-2011, 04:54 PMChriscoffeyHere :Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
I have no idea if the programming on Light Luggage was changed but to SE during this time that would be a HUGE red flag to windower being use if anything was mentioned in any chat log applicable. SE can ban you for anything at anytime according to their EULA so if they thought you were doing something you could potentially be gone. They could care less if you agree or disagree without hard data to prove they are wrong.Quote:
Light Luggage:
This has been an issue for a while. I love how it works and what it does but it currently has problems. Specifically the amount of requests it sends to the server to sort a player's inventory.
Understanding the problem:
Every player that uses Light Luggage sends 120 inventory sorting packet requests per second to the server. The server then has to process and send the player 120 packets per second with the updated information. Not only does it spam the server, but it forces the server to spam you.
The math:
If 10 people are using Light Luggage then the server is sending a whopping 1,200 packets per second. In a 30 second duration that is 36,000 packets being sent out. That is just insanely unnecessary. Bad bad programming and shame on whoever did that on Windower.
With the new server auto-sorting for you this is reduced to 1 packet every 30 sec. per player. For 10 people, that reduces what was 36,000 packets down to 10 packets every 30 sec. This frees up a lot of resources and reduces the stress on both the server and the player.
I think most of you "new( supposed old school)" players should do a bit more research about the game before you come in with experienced players to tell them "how it is" with jobs/windower/etc. -
12-07-2011, 05:32 PMShadowsong
How long have you been playing dude (inb4 NA PC release, which just makes it sad).
If they aren't even monitoring when I shout in Jeuno telling people where and how to install it, I don't think they are monitoring individual player's packets.
You can also turn LightLuggage off if you are that paranoid, what about that Coffey?
May I also suggest that you post a little better, rather than pissing off everyone in the thread. Us "new/old players" (whatever the hell that means) know exactly what we are talking about. -
12-07-2011, 07:52 PMChriscoffeylol You guys state there is no way SE would have a reason to ban you because windower can't be tracked(this includes plugins). I list exactly what some people were banned for because they were flagged due to packets being transmitted "out of sync" of the games typical packet transfer. You then change the subject to something totally irrelevant about me personally being paranoid about this. I am not paranoid because I understand the games dynamics and 3rd party tools that can be used. I don't really want to piss anyone off I just really hate people stating facts which aren't completely true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsong
This is one of those untrue statements and I am not here to argue semantics about a damn dll plugin that doesn't work without windower attached to it. The plugin typically comes already working when it was downloaded so chances are unless someone unloaded it they could/would have been flagged(if a GM looked server side:this doesn't mean instant ban) for abnormal packet transfer at that time. It seems to me that since you didn't know it was doing this most others would have been in the same unknowing boat as you were.Quote:
Given the fact that; A) Its undetectable B) It's been around for nearly a decade C) Somehow banning users would cut their profits and D) It actually makes the game better without them actually having to do anything
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12-07-2011, 08:17 PMDaniel_HatcherBy giving SE the right, IE Opening as an Admin, they could in theory find out if you're using it. It's as undetectable as deleting a picture off your HDD, in that it's not. Hard to detect, yes! but NOT undetectable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsong
That said, by the fact the last thread only got closed because people started being foul to each other, I would assume they couldn't care less, unless a GM personally see's you shouting about it and is in a bad mood. -
12-07-2011, 11:08 PMVold
When they gave us windowed mode they said that they hope we consider it and use it over Windower. That's pretty much all they've ever mentioned on the subject. And considering that they never went back to fix their weak attempt at making windowed mode(with all due respect to the people who worked on it, I'm sure they tried their best)I'm gonna have to say they don't care enough to make a fuss over things. Windowed mode is hit or miss depending on the system and windower is pretty much always a hit from what I hear. It doesn't give you an advantage over other players really, it just makes life easier for yourself.
So it's like whatever, just don't use cheats to gain an advantage over others like claim/pos/speed bots and don't talk about them(like as in how to use them or whatever I guess) and there won't be any problems. -
12-07-2011, 11:43 PMArconIf you believe that you are not an experienced player, so yes, let me tell you how it is: that's bullshit. You got that from a forum thread on a private FFXI server, and who knows how it would behave differently on there. That's assuming that guy isn't full of shit anyway, which I'm not convinced of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
Further proof you have absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about. There was nothing "out of sync" because there was no "sync" to be out of. Sorting packets means a command issued to the server if you change the sorting in your inventory. There is no automatic, regular sorting process, it happens when the user issues the command. There is nothing to synchronize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
LightLuggage sends a sorting command only when a new item comes into your inventory, that's it. Quite possibly the private server fucked up by sending that command to trigger it permanently.
Well, if you have no idea how it was changed, why the hell are you arguing about how it's been years ago (disregarding the fact that it's never been like that)? Windower, as it is, is undetectable, which is all that was stated, regardless of how it used to be. So stop misleading everyone with your half-informed and non-intelligent rants. You're a perfect example for the fact that old players don't have to be experienced or smart players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
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12-08-2011, 02:32 AMChriscoffeyI was stating something that was to disprove this notion that it wasn't detectable by ANY means during the course of it's history. That is a perfect rebuttal to your half-ass idiocy in that reply you just made against me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
You are a prime example of someone trying to tip-toe around this saying it never could have been possible at anytime. I listed an example of how this was possible in the past and you just denounce it. I said SE could ban you for anything at anytime. Are you going to argue that isn't possible in the EULA as well?
In that article it didn't state the server fucked up it stated that WINDOWER LIGHT LUGGAGE was fucked up when coded. I think as stupid as you make me out to be you might want to learn 1st grade reading comprehension. -
12-08-2011, 03:19 AMArconFirst of all, I'm not tip-toeing around anything, it doesn't happen. Ever. It didn't happen. Ever. I'm saying you're full of shit. I'm saying the poster on that forum is full of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
Secondly, that's not the issue. It's not possible. Regardless of whether or not it used to be possible, that's not the fucking issue. It was stated that "Windower is undetectable" and you came in on your high horse going "But that guy said! yaddayadda Don't talk to us pros like you know shit!". Even if that was true it would be completely besides the fucking point. But at least then I wouldn't be giving you a hard time about it.
What the fuck? Deflecting much? That's not the issue. If I would disagree with that, I would argue it. Since I'm not, I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
I read and understood what he said. I told you it was bullshit. Did you read and comprehend that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
But ok, if you believe him, then explain two things to to me. Firstly, how does that he know that LL is fucked up? How does he know how it was coded? How does he even know how it works?
And secondly, explain to me how it suddenly got better when, according to that guy, "the new server [started] auto-sorting for you"? How would LL know that the server is now autosorting, if it was just spamming sort-requests to the server? Because he doesn't mention it, he just said "it stopped, when the server was fixed". That alone hints at it being their fault, and not LL's fault.
I know logical answers to those questions pointing at the private server being fucked up, not LightLuggage. The question is, do you know any answers hinting the other way? If yes, by all means, lay it on me. Lecture me, point out what a noob I am so everyone can laugh at me. If no, just shut up before you embarrass yourself even more. -
12-08-2011, 08:02 AMChriscoffeyThe answer is quite simple: server networking load. If you had an ounce of understanding about reverse engineering for Project XI you would have understood what the guy was conveying. Quite simply put the private server isn't as efficient in handling networking related issues like the main server is because they don't have the code for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
The private server was put together from information gathered yet wasn't as effective at handling this issue. That is the reason they couldn't handle massive amount of people online like the primary servers can. This is the reason the packet spamming issue with LL became apparent and why it COULD BE USED to detect that you could be using a third party program like windower. It had nothing to do with the server injecting packets back client side since they were from the client itself. This can be considered abnormal by a client user and why i said it could be detected while you went off on a tangent how stupid I am.
Let me give you an example: Person A, Person B, Person C, Person D, Person E. Person B is using windower with LL and person E manually sorts(unloaded plugin).These all send and receive packets back and forth to the server. In this example items are being dropped into the person inventory, however, Person B's client is spamming the packets which is abnormal compared to the others when items drop in their inventory. This is "out of sync" with how the others handle inventory sorting behavior. Person E is no more detectable than Person A,C,or D but they aren't using LL either. Has this sunk in your mind yet or you still arguing I'm full of shit?
I am going to go out on a limb here make the assumption you would argue that they can't detect POS hacking either because HEY THAT'S CLIENT SIDE ALSO. SE banned people for using that and they couldn't officially have proof you were hacking or just lagging really bad but they still banned the hell out of people for it.
With this being said and seeing as this is derailing the topic somewhat you can think what you will or how retarded I am at this point. Go find yourself a cookie and pat yourself on the back. -
12-08-2011, 06:55 PMArconAnd if you had an ounce of your aforementioned reading comprehension, you would have understood what I was conveying. I told you, it's a lie. LL doesn't spam packets. Never did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
Also, in your entire post you just tried to show me how it could be detected (if it was buggy), you never really answered my questions. But since I'm a nice guy, I'll do it for you.
LL only sends one sorting packet to the server, and only at one point: When an item drops into your inventory. It's event-based. It will never send packets if it doesn't find an item entering your inventoy.
The problem is with the reverse engineering. The best explanation for it is that they had a bug, that would permanently update a users inventory, meaning it would permanently trigger LL's effect. That's also why LL suddenly stopped when they updated their server. This doesn't happen in real FFXI. Hence, it was never an issue.
Hard to argue around it. I understand what you're trying to say, but that wasn't my point. My point was, it wasn't LL's fault. LL's trigger was activated permanently, which made it send packets permanently. Blame failXI, not Windower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
Also, what you're describing is still not "out of sync". It's automated behaviour that humans couldn't imitate (unless they press a button 120 times per second. There is no synchronization between the players.
You like deflecting with weird examples, it seems. False, they can detect it, and they can also employ automatic measures to detect whether it was lag or not (the server can know when a player is lagging). So they can actually know for a fact whether or not someone pos hacked. A server has a player's movement speed available to them, so they know how far they can get in a certain time interval. If they time it from the moment a person is lagging and find they moved further than they could have in that interval, they know a person is lagging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscoffey
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12-11-2011, 01:38 PMShadowsong
Even POS hacking nowadays is pretty much undetectible, but that is mainly due to laziness. I do seem to recall people getting caught in the past before from zoning too quickly (zoning into Konschstat, then magically to Valkurm in 3 seconds)
As long as you cast Invisible, or POS hack underground, Ull pretty much never get caught. Its people physically seeing the hack that would snag someone. -
12-14-2011, 08:40 AMTohihroyu
^
And you post this where GM's can see? very smart move,bro. -
12-14-2011, 11:27 AMSkirata
Hello everyone and thank you all for posting your views on this matter. Just to clarify, the use of any third party program that interacts with the game would be a violation, which can be reviewed in the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement under sections 2.1, 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7. Should you have evidence of any third party program being used, you can report it to the GMs or the Special Task Force directly here. We will be closing the thread at this time, since the initial question has been answered. Thank you for your inquiry into our policies, and have a great day.