I guess I'll christen this forum with some conversation on BRD subs.
I currently use 4 subs; WHM, SCH, RDM and NIN
/WHM for any situation where I'll need to be more curative and support with -na's, like if for example the WHM is poorly geared and/or we're fighting something that requires more than one healer and we only have one, also when you might need to re-apply haste.
/SCH for any situations where curing isn't going to be needed, or if it is it'll be very light curing, Being able to accession Erase, Silena and Paralyna is very nice on certain NMs. You can also cover Drain, Aspir, Dispel and Light Threnody if you need to proc darkness in Abyssea. Losing the ability to cast haste is a bit irritating at times, but if you have WHMs or RDMs on the ball, it's not an issue.
/RDM Largely useless inside of Abyssea in my opinion, mainly due to the fact that it's relatively simple to hit songcast- with the right Atma and ring proc (Though subbing RDM allows you more room for flexibility) but outside, the extra 15% fast cast helps when you need to cast songs fast. The lack of na's hurt, but having refresh handy can be really nice when no-one else is able to cast it. Pretty good if you're going to be buffing up mainly and healing very lightly. Less flexibility than /whm but more proficient in certain areas.
/NIN Largely useless unless you're soloing or fishing (Do people still fish with BRD? I haven't done it since sand sweepers in Altep [A] at 85) Pretty good if you're going for damage I guess with dual wield.
I might have missed something, and I'd love to hear your opinions on BRD subs and why you use them. :cool:
BRD subjobs
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12-02-2011, 10:51 PMFlionheartBRD subjobs
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12-02-2011, 11:15 PMArcon
Interesting will be 99, since /RDM will get Cure IV and Haste, effectively eliminating /WHM. And for dispels, /SCH will still win with -na spells and Erase. /WHM may have a niche in situations where both curing and erasing is required a lot, but then again /WHM is limited by its MP pool. With Ballads, BRD can have nice Refresh already, but there'll always be ways to run out of MP, so the more the better. /RDM will probably win in those situations.
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12-02-2011, 11:22 PMFlionheart
Yeah for sure, once Cure IV isn't /whm exclusively then the situations that make /whm a great sub will be severely limited. It will still be a decent all around subjob for like you said, erasing, na's and hasting. If only /SCH got haste.
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12-02-2011, 11:32 PMKarumac
When I used to do this, I brought /SCH so I could Accession Aquaveil onto our MNK/NIN. It helped his Shadow casting.
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12-03-2011, 01:52 AMSapphoClever use of the SCH ja.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karumac
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12-03-2011, 02:03 AMKuroganashi
/NIN be best since BRD can DD as well with Emp Dagger and Mythic Weapon skill
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12-03-2011, 02:28 AMDeadvinta
I've never seen a BRD DD, but the thought makes me smile.
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12-03-2011, 02:47 AMFlionheartNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroganashi
They can DD relatively well. It's really easy to hit haste cap with room for flexibility due to the fact that there's a haste+ instrument (Angel Lyre). They can also use things like Byakko's Haidate, Osode and Hecatomb along side other things. They can pull out decent damage, but it shouldn't ever be prioritised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadvinta
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12-03-2011, 04:58 AMOrdoric
why not brd/dnc minuet and hastesamba or just march and haste samba
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12-03-2011, 06:25 AMDeadvinta
Because /nin they can actually take a few hits.
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12-03-2011, 09:00 AMTsukino_Kaji
I'm nearly always /nin. It's not my job to keep you alive.
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12-03-2011, 11:11 AMFlionheartThat's a bad attitude to take, especially on a job as open ended as BRD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
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12-03-2011, 11:42 AMTsukino_KajiNo, if you want a whm get a whm. Don't use half of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flionheart
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12-03-2011, 11:53 AMFlionheartSo... If you need some support healing... Instead of using a BRD/WHM you should get another WHM? And if you really /NIN all the time that means you don't support with hastes and na's either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
What if your WHM gets hit with sleep or paralyze? What if the healer goes down? Not all fights are predictable and being /NIN just to avoid curing people is lazy practice. -
12-03-2011, 01:18 PMEconomizer
Where is /DNC?
Combines the most of the DD power of /NIN with the healing power of most -na spells /WHM can do and a little healing power for slight emergencies.
If Haste and healing are already covered, you can also pop Haste Samba on mobs along with some steps, and even self heal Silence and help stun.
Maybe not good for the hardest things, but neither is /NIN. -
12-03-2011, 02:53 PMTsukino_KajiNo, check my main. I am not avoiding curing or being lazy, I am being a brd, not a whm. A whm is a whm and a brd is a brd. The only reason for a brd to ever have to support heal is because you're whm is bad at it's job. We're not 75 anymore, brd as a healer is obsolete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flionheart
Then I'd just go dnc. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
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12-03-2011, 04:19 PMArconYou're just admitting to not playing to your full capacity then. What do you do during a fight? Melee? Cast Ninjutsu? What use could you possibly gain from /NIN? You cast your spells on tanks and mages and the rest you just sit and stare, waiting to reapply those buffs? There's always something you can do. There are fights that will kill you. There are hard fights, where a WHM's focus isn't on hasting, or simply doesn't have time/MP to. There isn't always a second WHM, and a BRD may very well be required. So what are you going to do? Say "Fuck you, I'm a BRD, it's not my job!" or get your head out of your ass and contribute to your party/linkshell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
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12-03-2011, 04:28 PMTsukino_KajiThey way you're talking is say that brd has to be a healer and only a healer or you're no brd. Is it so hard to believe that people can't focus on their job unassisted? Is it so hard to figure out the level of survivability and agro avoidance that /nin provides? I'm sorry I'm not playing brd the way you say I should. You're just forcing a stereotype and a "my way or the highway" attitude along with an inability to see things any other way then your own. People asked about subs and I stated mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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12-03-2011, 05:15 PMArconNo, I don't force anything, I suggest. And it's not "my way" it's "the better way". How does /NIN avoid aggro? How does it add to survivability? Only if you're meleeing and standing in range when it does certain TP moves that are consumed by shadows, doesn't work on other TP moves or on magic spells. Guess what does? Stoneskin. And for blinkable moves you have, well, Blink.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
There is no reason not to sub a mage on BRD unless you wanna avoid having to cast spells. If that's the case, good for you. It doesn't make it right, or better, or even defendable.
People asked about conversation, this isn't a poll. And you didn't just state yours, you commented "It's not my job to keep you alive". Well, no one said that. BRD's job is support. But subbing a mage job simply allows you to strengthen your support role. That's all there is to it. You insinuated that if someone needs a BRD to support cast, it means they have a bad WHM, which is a load of crap. Sometimes a WHM just isn't enough. So yeah, you can either get another WHM or a RDM or something, or let them be something else that contribute and you just sub a mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
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12-03-2011, 06:31 PMTsukino_Kaji
So you're the person back before TAU that said blms had to sub whm, no exceptions? Perhaps even forcing them to main heal in the 30-50 range?
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12-03-2011, 06:43 PMtendo64
@Arcon
Yowza, someone takes their monthly subscription fee a little too seriously. Who cares about what you think is "the better way" until you're the leader of a party and can make those decisions. It's not like the BRD/NIN sits with his flag up, snickering maliciously as to what pick-up group he's going to sabotage. He's thinking for himself in an Abyssea-raised endgame where healers don't get punted for being crappy as long as they toss the Cure VI to the right person every now and then. Players needs to stay alive to support, yeah? BRDs support, and support only takes them so far, mage sub or not. Just as there are times where a WHM isn't enough, there are more times where a BRD/Mage just isn't enough. If a party needs a BRD, it's up to them to decide what the sub will be if they want more out of him. It's not up to you, you're not that special dude. Not everyone is in this game to squeeze 100% efficiency out of their time, so agree to disagree and be more constructive. -
12-03-2011, 07:17 PMMarcelloI apologize, but I do not understand this statement at all. As a party member, regardless of job, my first responsibility is trying to make sure everyone stays alive. I understand the concept of acceptable losses but to simply let someone die because you do not feel like helping seems to hinder the cause. That being said, I do not wish to imply that is what you do, I am simply stating the wording of your statement could lead to misinterpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
I did see someone mention /dnc on here and was immediately dismissed. I had a few questions about this. The first statement is that /nin is the way to go for survivability, is it necessary to have that level of protection? Also, another mentioned that would just come a dancer, but is there that much to be gained from bringing a dnc over /dnc.
Thanks for the responses and I hope I did not offend as that was not my intention. -
12-03-2011, 07:24 PMArconHow.. what... where do you get this from? How is this in any way related to what I just said?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
So do you if you feel you need to post to call me out on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tendo64
First of all, it's not what I think is the better, it is the better way. Secondly, this is supposed to be a discussion, which is precisely what this is about. So apparently the people who post in here do care, or why would they participate? We're here to discuss the merits of BRD subjobs, because, well, that's what the thread is about. And if someone comes in here and proclaims (with pride) that it's not his job to keep us alive, I will argue that assertion. If that grinds your shit, feel free to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by tendo64
Mage sub takes them further. That's my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by tendo64
Thanks for enlightening me, special dude. Again, do you realize what the purpose of this thread is? Discussion. I'm not imposing my playstyle on anyone. I won't tell Tsukino_Kaji to sub /WHM, if he wants to be lazy and sub /NIN that's his choice, or his leader's choice, what the fuck do I care? But if he comes on here and promotes his playstyle, he better be ready to be called out on it. Especially if he's being insulting while at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tendo64
That's bullshit, I can't "agree to disagree" and "be more constructive" at the same time, because if I don't make an effort to detail why his choice is stupid, others may read it and try it and gimp their own playstyle. It is, in fact, destructive.Quote:
Originally Posted by tendo64
If someone reads through an honest discussion and still chooses to sub NIN, it's his choice and I would never stop them (unless, maybe, it was my party, although I have a tendency to work around gimp setups instead of forcing people to improve their playstyle). However, if someone is swayed to sub NIN by false propaganda, promoted by people being lazy/stubborn/whatever, that is counterproductive and it should be called out.
Having said that, /NIN has its uses, but they're largely outside of the party realm. If you play /NIN, that's your choice, if you think it's good for your party you're either delusional, misinformed or trying to rationalize your bad choice and won't admit it to yourself. -
12-03-2011, 11:39 PMFlionheartI missed out /DNC for one simple reason....Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcello
I don't have it levelled up :( It's on my to do list though, and I've heard in terms of DDing and soloing it's a very powerful subjob. I'm sorry if anyone misconstrued my lack of covering on the sub as a lack of faith in its powers, it's simply an unknown because I haven't had the time to try it out. -
12-03-2011, 11:40 PMFlionheart
As for "Healing isn't my job" Arcon covered my opinion on it well. Going /NIN for an actual reason or tactical purpose is fine imo, but going /NIN just to shirk duties isn't a good way to play this game.
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12-06-2011, 03:57 AMDarkzeru
subbing /dnc is irrelevant unless you're melee'n which brd shouldnt be doing....
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12-06-2011, 08:05 AMFlionheart1) SoloingQuote:
Originally Posted by Darkzeru
2) Proccing
3) Providing haste samba (Albeit weakened) and some spotty cures
There's times when you don't need to rely on Cure IV, Haste and Na's. Those times are few and far apart, but they do exist. You can even remove debuffs with Healing Waltz when it's called for. -
12-06-2011, 12:32 PMOlor
I've been doing /dnc for skilling up dagger... offhand the haste procing dagger, haste samba and double march
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12-15-2011, 03:44 AMJerynh
All that arguing was super lame. Tsukino, you know you stated your opinion in a way that was meant to make you look like a tough guy, so don't be so surprised that someone called you out on it. This is the internet...everyone is a tough guy.
As far as your opinion goes, it really is lazy. The problem is, /nin has nothing to do. Shadows is the only thing that benefits you, and these days songs last quite a while. The point Arcon is making is, what are you doing between songs? Casting shadows over and over? Elegy and Threnody over and over? We're not asking you not to play your job, but the fact is that there are subjobs available for a reason.
DD are up close, take hate, get hit with AoE's (much more often than any support jobs), so shadows from nin quite often really are the best thing they can bring to the table in subjob choices, to limit the healing needed outside the tank. Plus, DD's usually have more to do than cast songs every 3 minutes.
Brd typically do not DD in major situations though, so why would you need /nin, when you could drop a Cure III-IV on yourself every so often when you do get unlucky and eat an AoE?
What happens when you're asked to go on a low-man Dynamis run? 2 DD's don't need a full whm for a party against EP -> EM's. Brd/whm brings many more options to the table, you really can't deny that.
If you just can't get out of your specialization rut, there is a trick to turning off your subjob, it just involves switching your jobs/subjobs to overlap over and over until it sticks. Do it. Get it out of the way, so at least people looking for a brd, whm, or whatever, will know what they're getting out of you. Don't be a hypocrite an only do it with brd. Never use a subjob again if you feel it is so unnecessary. Just play your main.