Anyone else think they are long due?
A quick recap of wards:
Highest MP cost.
Shortest duration.
Most random.
Lowest potency.
While I do agree that you shouldn't be beating BRDs and CORs on the buffing front, I also think it is insane to believe SMN should be worst on all fronts.
1. How about making wards cost no MP? Several pacts are mirrored on BRD or COR, and yet we pay MP for the exact same deal.
2. How about 5 min durations on buffs? While it would let you put up 5 buffs, it isn't like having stoneskin + ice spikes is going to beat minuet or chaos roll. (2 vs 1). I actually asked for this 2005, and viola! 2006 COR appeared with 5 min buffs. I got a hard time to think it is a coincidence. If nothing else it is a confirmation that 1 min global recast buffs should last 5 min.
3. How about less random effects? A COR can decide when to stop rolling, a SMN can't decide when it is full moon. Neither can they decide when it is midnight. You can adapt, but that is kind of like making COR rolls depend on day instead and say chaos is only firesdays... that would make any COR rage, so I never understood why SMNs accept this silly system.
4. And what about potency? The most classic ones are crimson howl, that gives 8% attack bonus... which is never going to be much at all. At 500 base attack, it is barely 50. Another classic is thunder armor... which can't stun anything. What is the point of shock spikes if it doesn't stun? Not to mention the terrible single digit damage I recall from it.
I'm of course not saying all 4 points above needs to be done. But I'd like to see two, so that SMN gets some kind of purpose on buffs.
1+2: You can give a lot of mediocre buffs for free. Kind of like someone subbing BRD or so.
1+3: More like a BRD, you give out free solid bonuses. Still not very potent, but at least it isn't random.
1+4: Now it is kind of a COR. Random from times to times, but really powerful when you aren't unlucky.
2+3: Long solid buffs. Costs a lot to throw up, so you'll probably never keep more than two up anyway. But at least it isn't random.
2+4: Long and powerful buffs. Very similar to COR. Just that you pay MP for it.
3+4: Short and costly burst buffs, but with potent powers. Kind of like tossing up Berserk in a battle. It won't last long, and it will cost you, but good for zergs.
Personally I'm in favor of 1+2 or if I can dream, 2+4. The least I'd expect is 3 though, since it makes no sense to have pacts depend on moon phase for balance.
Ward updates needed
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03-13-2011, 02:39 AMMalamasalaWard updates needed
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03-13-2011, 05:43 AMZetonegi
You can do 4k+ DMG every 45 seconds and you already have 5min duration buffs if you take the time to hit 420 skill(not hard) which pushes most of the buffs up to 5 minutes with a few at 3 and 4 minute durations. If you really want to be buff happy you can juggle Hastega, Crimson Howl, Inferno Howl, and say Noctoshield every 3 minutes in addition to giving a fairly decent double attack buff from idling with Ifrit out. Since you're probably in Abyssea you can easily have a strong enough refresh to keep those buffs up and use Meteor Strike every 45 seconds if you're good about using Elemental Siphon and have a half decent perp set.
Or you can toss cures while coming close to 1 shotting mobs which takes less effort and people won't complain if that's all you do. -
03-13-2011, 06:47 AMSmokenttp
i agree that the potency of some pacts like crimson howl could be buffed up a bit, but i need also to agree in parts with negi, the skill does get your duration up,but i have to remind that 4k+ damage are only possible in abyssea (ok maybe outside if you can get a luck shot on empyreal armor +2) and altough the majority of the game is inside there now there is still an outside content where atmas dont exist(im looking mostly at missions at the current time and gessho is still a pain/im trying to solo him no sucess so far altough im lacking in gear and thats what im working before going for him again).
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03-13-2011, 07:41 AMZetonegi
If you're out of abyssea you can still hit 2ks+ easily and if you're doing anything with a party, it won't last long enough for the lack of buffs (or lack of 10/tick refresh) to matter. Nothing in old world needs more than Hasteha and Diamond Storm. I can't thing of anything old world that's actually needs more intensive BP: Warding.
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03-13-2011, 08:08 AMMalamasalaThat is part of the thing. Why aren't all 5 min? Why do they differ? Especially when the shortest duration pacts are the weakest as well. Would be pretty odd if Ballad was 1 min, minne 4 min, and march 2 min. Just a set amount of duration would make much more sense.Quote:
if you take the time to hit 420 skill(not hard) which pushes most of the buffs up to 5 minutes with a few at 3 and 4 minute durations.
Not to mention it would be nice if Summoner was a job for players before level 90 and with full endgame gear. A BRD for example functions already in the dunes at level 11ish. Sure BRD doesn't do much else than sing there, but a SMN hasn't even gotten buffs by then.
It is less about needing (nobody needs BRDs and CORs, but that doesn't make them help a lot in kill speed) but more about them having some use.Quote:
Nothing in old world needs more than Hasteha and Diamond Storm. I can't thing of anything old world that's actually needs more intensive BP: Warding.
You did however remind me of one point I missed.
5. Wards should stack with other jobs buffs. It just is a shame that if you have a WHM or RDM, your hastega is less interesting (saves MP, but that is all it does). Your aerial armor does not stack with utsusemi and becomes obsolete. Your nocto shield does not stack with a SCH's AOE phalanx or RDMs phalanx II. If they could stack, you'd be a much better complement to a party since you'd boost your other mages buffs even further. -
03-13-2011, 08:38 AMVangoh
You know what? I totally agree with Malamasala, blood pacts wards cost too much mp, low duration, some of them are random stuff like glistering ruby or fenrir's or diabolo's and stuff, and the potency sucks!
you would think that by lvl 90 fenrir's buffs would increase bu they're the same as if you were lvl 60, diabolo's nightmare effect sucks too the bio effect is as efficient as a dia 1. Ramuh's rolling thunder is weak as hellz compared to ifrit's new AOE enfire buff. There just are a lot of annoying things about blood pact wards. if they're not gonna add anything good with buffs they should just add offensive BP wards like diabolo's somnolence that does dmg and an additional effect. seriously. -
03-13-2011, 09:59 AMZetonegi
SMN isn't a buff job, don't expect to buff with it. BP Wards aren't meant to make SMN this super buffer + damage dealer, almost all of them filled in gaps that mages AT THE TIME couldn't. Yes, there's Sleepga and Nightmare but really they're minor exceptions to an overwhelming majority Lunar Roar is a dispel, yes, but it dispels 2 effects at the same time AND is AoE with no consequence if you link something. You won't find a mage today that can do that. The new BP Wards continue on this, they have unique effects that other mages can't emulate right now, a powerful add effect(all things considered, 40 damage before resists is pretty good), a movement speed boost, reduction of severe damage, evasion down, attack down. These are effects that mages can't really do right now just like how all the old BP Wards were things mages COULDN'T do then. If SMN was meant to give BRD-like buffs then all our BP Wards would have always been crazy good. They're not though, they filled and continue to fill niche rolls. Thats just how BP Wards are. Just like how you usually only use 2 Blood Pact: Rages, Predator Claws and whatever you 5/5'd, there are few situations where you use something else. The rest are bad, they just are. I don't see you complaining about Rush, Mountain Buster, Chaotic Strike, Spinning Dive, Flaming Crush, Night Terror, Lunar Bay, or Holy Mist for being bad. Why should BP: Wards get this special treatment. We use whats good just like how BLMs don't use Stone spells because they're generally bad and most BLMs merited Ice and Thunder because they're better. You never see BLMs complain about the Stone spells sucking and how they should be buffed so they can use more than 2 spell lines.
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03-13-2011, 01:21 PMSmokenttpi agree with smn getting a buff at mid level (i even made a topic about it http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Abilities-idea =X) but dunes lvl isnt a very good parameter for things as jobs are still very look alike at that time at qufim(18-19s) tough they start to really change apart by alot(blus get bludgeon, thfs get SA & dncs get waltz (ok those 2 are 15),wars get sturmwind berserk and defender,nins get utsusemi etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
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03-13-2011, 01:57 PMBurmeciaI disagree with this. SE has made a lot of changes to summoner that have greatly enhanced their buffing ability, and kept certain spells to them unique to purposely out-do other mage jobs (IE hastega is the only AoE haste spell since mages can not accession haste; and it can last a longer duration as well if conditions are right). Of course summoners are multifunctional, so they aren't exactly "the best" at anything in particular, which is similar to say, the Scholar job. And although they aren't the best, they can still do an amazing job and make good use of what they have.Quote:
SMN isn't a buff job, don't expect to buff with it. BP Wards aren't meant to make SMN this super buffer + damage dealer, almost all of them filled in gaps that mages AT THE TIME couldn't...
Saying that though, I still think SE needs to make some fixes to certain BPs, as OP has posted. MP consumption has always been a huge issue with summoner, and even though they have tried to make some fixes, I feel like some changes still need to be made to this job.
Also this isn't a huge concern for me now as it was before, but I've always kinda wished that there was a third BP type for enfeebling/debuffing magic. I actually had to fill the role of a debuffer a lot in my early parties as a summoner, since I could not find any jobs to invite that could dispel monsters (I had the misfortune of leveling summoner a little while before they introduced level sync so many needed jobs were hard to come by at the time), and I remember just wishing so much for this.
Perhaps this separate BP could have a much shorter recast time as well, to make it work out more efficiently. But again, it's not a huge concern to me, but I just kind of think it would be cool to have still. :) -
03-13-2011, 09:05 PMMalamasalaI don't know where you are coming from. The avatars basically has 50-50 rage-wards. If you can't say it is expected to buff, you can't say it is expected to DD. And as I said, there is no super buffing needed, just something else than super terrible buffing. Do you know how often I've used ward the last 3 years? Like never. White mage getting stoneskin addition to cures was the nail in the coffin for earthen ward. Parties diverging from 4 melee, 1 BRD, 1 healer was the death of hastega since with fewer to haste a RDM or WHM does just as fine.Quote:
SMN isn't a buff job, don't expect to buff with it. BP Wards aren't meant to make SMN this super buffer + damage dealer, almost all of them filled in gaps that mages AT THE TIME couldn't.
I want to use my wards, but they are never worth the MP cost.
The AOE is actually about 3-4 yalms. You'll only hit two monsters if they actually overlap with their models. I also recall it only dispels spells, not abilities. But I admit I used this so little since everyone else can cover dispel.Quote:
Lunar Roar is a dispel, yes, but it dispels 2 effects at the same time AND is AoE with no consequence if you link something
The 40 damage is only on fire weak monsters. It is highly situational. Movement speed boost AND reduction of sever damage are both on BRD already. Evasion down is here and there, THF, DNC, old fenrir. Nice with AOE though.Quote:
The new BP Wards continue on this, they have unique effects that other mages can't emulate right now, a powerful add effect(all things considered, 40 damage before resists is pretty good), a movement speed boost, reduction of severe damage, evasion down, attack down.
That is pretty stupid logic. If COR rolls were supposed to be good, then they would have been good on release, right? But they got DOUBLED within months because people said "Why get a COR when you can have a BRD?". The sad part is that nobody even bothered to say "Why get a SMN when you can get a BRD?" because Wards were so terrible they weren't even acknowledge to exist by the playerbase.Quote:
If SMN was meant to give BRD-like buffs then all our BP Wards would have always been crazy good. They're not though, they filled and continue to fill niche rolls. Thats just how BP Wards are.
The only reason Wards are terrible, is because nobody complains about it so SE thinks "Oh everyone loves our wards. Let's not change anything". CORs complained, and got DOUBLED effect. We could do the same, if we had anyone who cared about the Summoner job instead of their big numbers from 70 BPs.
Because my opinion is that a DD+support job shouldn't be awesome at DD or support, but good at both. It is people like you who think it is DD only that should complain about rage pacts. (I'm tempted to complain about Flaming Crush though... such a useless BP)Quote:
I don't see you complaining about Rush, Mountain Buster, Chaotic Strike, Spinning Dive, Flaming Crush, Night Terror, Lunar Bay, or Holy Mist for being bad.
You do know that today Earth nukes V are better than Ice and Thunder IV, right? So at the moment the BLMs have gotten the change, even though they probably didn't want it.Quote:
We use whats good just like how BLMs don't use Stone spells because they're generally bad and most BLMs merited Ice and Thunder because they're better. You never see BLMs complain about the Stone spells sucking and how they should be buffed so they can use more than 2 spell lines.
Not that it matters since a BLM only wants to cast the most powerful spell, they don't want to use elemental rules. -
03-14-2011, 02:42 AMVangoh
Well we all have made our point and I think we all agree more than disagree, for those of us who actually care about the SMN job we can all agree that there are changes that need to be done and they're not just whim and a caprice from us to get fancy.
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03-17-2011, 01:22 PMStrife
I would like to see BP: Ward improved & considering it's being discussed on a lot of threads at the moment I think a lot of people would. SMNs focus mostly on their rage pacts now because there is such a disparity between a SMNs effectiveness at DD vs using support abilities. I'd like to see it evened out & SMN returned to a more faceted job as I believe it was intended to be.
I use all my elements on BLM with all the day/ weather bonuses we get & by targeting a mobs weakness (elemental weakness not !! triggering) I can usually do more damage with a lower MP cost spell than by just blindly spamming thunder/ blizzard on everything.Quote:
We use what’s good just like how BLMs don't use Stone spells because they're generally bad and most BLMs merited Ice and Thunder because they're better. You never see BLMs complain about the Stone spells sucking and how they should be buffed so they can use more than 2 spell lines.
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03-17-2011, 01:40 PMDallas
300/45 = 6ish wards every 5 minutes. Now, pick 6 5-min wards. Now add up their MP cost. Add 6 rage BPs. Compare that to the 1000mp you get from 5 minutes of Minikin + the 500 you get from Siphon + the 1000 you get from convert + the 300 you get from refresh + the 600 you get from refresh gear (Horn +2, WOTG earring, body) and autorefresh.
Let us know if you are feeling underbuffed or short on mp!