I know I do. What stats would you be interested in for a shield?
refresh +1
converts damage taken to mp
fast cast
haste
crit defense bonus
magic attack bonus
cure potency
enhances afflatus misery effects
Who wants a good looking whm shield with good stats?
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10-21-2011, 01:31 PMMightygWho wants a good looking whm shield with good stats?
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10-22-2011, 02:13 AMMDenham
I'd take one with something odd, like "Enhancing magic potency +10%".
Congratulations, your haste is now 16.5%, your Stoneskin caps at 385 before other gear (and each of those other 'Enhances "Stoneskin" effect' pieces gives another 3), your regens are better, your Aquaveil is better, etc. etc. etc. -
10-22-2011, 06:45 AMDaniel_HatcherHealing is WHM's forte, Enhancing is COR and BRD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
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10-22-2011, 07:36 AMEconomizerWhite Mage has a slew of Refresh Gear, so I'm not so sure that's a good idea currently. Converting damage taken to MP seems a little tank based, and generally White Mages don't want to take damage, but if your focusing on the melee side using shields, that's interesting. Still, like an Afflatus Misery buff (it needs one since Auspice was nerfed so hard), you generally won't be using shields while meleeing so the Afflatus Misery buff would have to be party based. Magic Attack Bonus only really would help with Flash Nova, since a Light Staff is better then adding all but the most extreme amounts of MAB. That said, like Cure Potency (Genbu Augment), Magic Attack Bonus (Harpy Shield) is already on a shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyg
For Haste, unless you are trying to cap it for recast reduction, White Mage can already cap Haste without sacrificing a weapon slot, and using a shield instead of a second club while doing melee would be pretty unusual.
To be honest, the shield should be for all jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Better yet, a shield that gives a 10%-15% boost to all magic would be better, but that's more in line with the multipurpose elemental shield I've been clamoring for for ages. Again, all jobs would be a better tag, but considering the lack of more impressive shields with increasing levels, exclusivity is the least of my concerns when it comes to getting a new shield.
All jobs could probably use a better party based shield, especially as we reach higher levels. It sucks having every person who remotely thinks about sitting in the back for half a second get pushed to having to hold a staff forever. -
10-22-2011, 09:59 AMMDenhamI don't know about all jobs, but I could get behind it being the eight-job "odd round shield" combo (WHM, BLM, RDM, PLD, DRK, SMN, BLU, SCH).Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
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As an alternative, since someone seems to have objections to a WHM being able to pump up their Barspells and other enhancing magic that COR and/or BRD do not get equivalents to... a shield that grants a unique spell would be nice. Maybe Holyja (300MP, AoE, affected by Afflatus Solace, increases light-element damage similar to other -ja spells, base damage roughly on par with tier-3 -ga spells), since I doubt we'd see that any other way. -
10-22-2011, 11:31 AMEconomizerI don't understand why BRD and COR, both jobs that are given daggers and the occasional sword, should be forced to use a 51 staff while others get to use a weapon they're more proficient in, and a shield. Especially when Summoner, which is a definite Staff job, gets to use something that boosts magic casting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
Not limiting it by jobs would mimic the elemental staves more, for a real upgrade for jobs that don't have access to the magian staves too. Of course, stats like Ranged Attack +10, or PDT-20% wouldn't be on it, so perhaps some people would still use the staves, but still, the idea.
While I disagree with baring something like pumping up enhancing magic in a powerful way being given to White Mage (but not exclusively), I don't think that a unique spell, especially an offensive spell, would really be neccisary to make better shields White Mage can use. There are a slew of things that can be done, and at this point, I hardly care if the shield is exclusive or not.
Although since the topic is coming up, this reminds me of a thread Kingfury started, where he posted the proposed the incredibly broken Hardlight set:
And since the forums now allows embedding images, I'll post the picture of the shield's stats, cut from Kingfury's concept art:Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
http://i.imgur.com/rj796.pngShield, 95 WHM. 35DEF. Converts 5% of damage to HP and MP. Enhances "Flash" Effect. Physical Damage: "Light Spikes" effect.
You might like the concept, although I feel it is a bit much, and for the melee White Mage, dual wield will continue to be a hard thing to give up. -
10-22-2011, 12:27 PMMDenham
In the case of COR, I'd feel more comfortable with providing them with a sword or dagger that improves roll effects than a shield. (A shield feels to me like you're trying to force, or at least heavily promote, COR/BLM as the standard job combination, which is just weird.) For that matter, it could provide a bonus to Quick Draw as well.
Bard is a little harder to set up. I'm tempted to say that a set of daggers with various song types (for example, "Carol +10%") would be a better idea than just a generic "Singing/Wind instrument/String instrument potency +10%" set of shields, even at the expense of promoting BRD/NIN (or, probably more likely, BRD/DNC). (For that matter, the instrument ones would be useless to have as All Jobs anyway.)
I dunno, though. (Also, that Hardlight set is crap. Not enough attack+, too much INT+. :D) -
10-24-2011, 02:09 AMMightyg
I think we can all agree though at the very least our shield options are visually ugly as sin. I would seriously kill/let my party die for a few new skins on a shield actually worth equipping.
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10-25-2011, 02:07 AMMirageIn all seriousness though, it would have to do one of the following to be considered good enough to actually use:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyg
The shield had an enfeebling/enhancing magic bonus that makes a wand + shield outperform elemental staves for enfeebs and enhancements (barspells are boosted by elemental staves, IIRC)
The shield+wand will allow more more cure potency than surya's staff +3 (or enough to let you easily cap it, thus letting other stats on the shield become relevant)
The shield has more -damage taken than genbu's, making it a "oh shit i can't die now" piece.
The shield has awesome DD stats that makes it outperform dualwielding, for the whmelees out there.
Or lastly, the shield offers another +1 refresh.
Maybe something like this would be good:
Def: 20
Shield of Awesome
Cure Potency +7%
Spell interruption rate -15%
Damage taken -13%
or
Shield of pretty damn good
Def:30
Refresh +1
enfeebling magic +15
Enhancing magic +15
Fast cast +5% -
10-25-2011, 02:30 AMMDenham
Enhancing magic isn't boosted by elemental staves, unfortunately. This is why I went with my original suggestion.
Ideally it'd be just "White magic potency +10%", but that seems like it's going a little too far. -
10-25-2011, 05:06 AMMirageHuh, you're right, it seems (just tested it myself). I thought barspells were the exception, but apparently, it only looks that way because equipping the staff alone gives you +15 to the same element while it's on. Well then, the shield wouldn't really need "enhancing magic +15" in that case, but it would still be pretty sweet.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
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10-25-2011, 01:12 PMEconomizerNeither of these would make me melee in a shield, they would just let me use a shield in parties instead of a Staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
The main problem with a shield is that you can't dual wield while using it. Basically, unless you have a shield that gives more damage then having a multihitter massively boosting your TP gain.
You'd at least need to be close to or on par like. Extreme stats like Store TP 50, OR sizable amounts of double/triple/quadruple attack would help the TP generation. Or you'd at the very least need to be giving at least 10 STR, 20 Attack, and a boost to WS damage on par with the extra hit DW gives, for matching weapon skill damage.
Even extreme stats like that probably won't make White Mage more powerful then it already is though, since you can already do a lot of that with Dual Wield.
Enhancing Magic +15 would give ~1-2 points of Barspell boost to the shield. Another option would be a Barspells +15 boost, but again, you are making a party oriented shield, not one for hitting things. That's not bad of course, since White Mages could use better Party shields since we're currently stuck on the Genbu's and Muse, but the stats for party roles and melee are much more different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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10-25-2011, 01:28 PMMirage
It was my intention to make party oriented shields, so that's fine. I think making a shield that outdoes the boost you get from dualwielding is going to have to be maybe unrealistically strong. If I were to choose a shield over dualwielding though, it would probably have to be something like this:
Clobbering Shield
Defence 25, -5%PDT (optional, just because def doesn't really do much)
Club skill +25, Triple attack +5%
Str +15, dex+15, mnd+15
Critical hit damage +15%
Maybe haste +4% as well. It could free up a slot previously used for haste elsewhere.
Using a shield would also allow you to sub for example warrior, for Fencer (another 5% crit rate), another 10% DA, berserk and attack bonus. Also aggressor, but I doubt you would be meleeing something you didn't even have capped, or close to capped hit rate on.
The idea behind this shield is of course that the str will make up for whm's relatively low str, dex will help crit rate, which is futher boosted by the crit dmg stat, and the mnd will boost most (all?) of the relevant club WSes. Of course, it is also pretty obvious that this shield is more or less tailored for Hexa Strike.
Of course, I doubt a shield like this will actually be implemented, but at level 99, who knows? -
10-25-2011, 02:08 PMEconomizer
Until I got to the critical hit damage boost the shield looked pretty bad to me to be honest. :p
Triple attack +5% doesn't really do much for me outside of Abyssea, but I have the magian multihitter club to offhand. -
10-25-2011, 02:14 PMDaniel_HatcherEven at 99 that shield be VERY powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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10-25-2011, 02:44 PMMirageYeah, I know. It is unlikely that this lets you outdamage a OA2-4 offhand weapon, but that could be remedied by giving whm access to more DA/TA gear. With this shield, they would have a total of 5% TA and 15% DA available to them, I think, with /war. I do not know more DA/TA gear that whm can use other than brutal earring, really. And this fictional shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
I think this is enough of a boost from a single item though. If it's not sufficient, I would rather have other pieces of gear that synergized (is that a real word?) well with single-wielding and the stats on that shield. Such as idk, fencer +5 or +10 or something, which I hope would increase the crit bonus by another 5-10%, as well as adding an even bigger TP bonus. Having every 100TP hexa strike (or whatever WS you used) be performed as if with 200TP would surely help damage over time.
Somethingsomething Necklace
DA +5
Single wielding: Weapon delay -15%
Fencer +5, Improves Fencer TP bonus (+50?)
Lv96 WAR WHM PLD RDM
Yes, reducing weapon delay will reduce TP per hit, but because the hits are coming faster, your TP gain over time should not decrease. Your damage over time will however definitely increase by a significant amount. Breaking x-hit builds shouldn't be much of an issue for 1h weapons anyway, like it is for 2h weapons. Furthermore, -delay isn't subject to the same cap as haste is, and will let you get down to a delay reduction of roughly -55% coupled with your own haste spell. If you have a dnc with you, you could get down to -65% :>. Of course, if you were /nin, you would be -75% delay at this point, so that is still potentially better.
The DA on it would also not be very beneficial for OA2-4 weapons (depends a bit on the distribution of multihits, but it will definitely be less beneficial than for normal weapons), so it will help close the gap (at least a bit) between single and dualwielding with OAX offhand weapons.
Is it really? In SE's eyes, maybe yes. In terms of this shield's performance vs the generally accepted "best" or "good" setup for a whm, not really. You have to remember that you're losing a *lot* of TP gain by not dualwielding. Lack of the dualwield delay reduction also robs you of a significant amount of dot even if you're not using a multihit offhand weapon because DW3 is like -25% combined delay. You're also losing shadows if you like to use those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
You also have to take into account that whm has a very limited selection of DD gear. This is probably going to be one very very few equipment pieces a whm melees in. The rest is probably going to be blessed, turban (or zelus if you have it) and possibly goliard saio to cap gear haste, and other than the haste on those pieces, they have close to 0 DD stats. No DA, no TA, no attack, no acc, no str, no dex. -
10-25-2011, 03:38 PMEconomizerRoyal Redingote augment (2%), and Aesir Mantle (1~2%). That's pretty much it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Dual Wield really shines when given stuff like a multihitter or double/triple/quadruple attack though, since you not only hit more often and give it more chances to proc, but have two chances per attack round too.
The only risk I can think of with giving sizable amounts of double/triple/quadruple attack on a shield to a White Mage is if it is a Relic White Mage, but at that point, you still have to compare the damage to a Relic White Mage carrying a KC in the offhand as well. While I don't see it happening any time soon either, an extreme amount of Store TP on a shield would also be an option with similar outcomes. -
10-25-2011, 03:52 PMMirage
Or an extreme amount of DA/TA, which not only increases TP gain, but also gives you a lot more damage, both in the TP phase and WS phase. Well, the amount of extra damage from DA/ is sort of gimped by the fact that Hexa Strike is a 6 hit WS, so a single TA proc on the first hit, or two DA procs in total, and you're at the 8-hit cap. You'll pretty much always be doing 8-hit Hexas though, which is kinda nice. I don't know how good the empyrean club WS is, or how many hits it has, but it could probably get a nice boost from DA/TA gear as well.
The way I understand it though, DA/TA/QA gear doesn't really get a bigger boost than any other stuff when DWing. If you have a 30% DA rate and 0% DW delay reduction, then go to a 25% DW delay reduction, using two identical weapons, your damage and TP gain over time will increase by the same percentage as if you had 0% DA and 0% DW delay reductuin, then going to 25% DW delay reduction. I think, anyway.
However, as delay gets lower, you get more "TP per delay" so to say, according to this graph:
http://gamerescape.com/wiki/images/3/3d/Tpgain.jpg
So if you have a single club at 300 delay, that is gonna get less TP per hit than two 300 delay clubs dualwielded with 25% DW, cutting it down to in practice around 200 delay per club. As you can see from that graph, this leads to more TP per hit. And in turn, more TP per hit from a multihit-proc. -
10-25-2011, 11:31 PMEconomizerI hate to be the one to break the news to you... but the Empyrean Club WS is a self-target move much like Moonlight. It restores HP and MP. It is probably the single worst WS on an Empyrean currently. The only way it will ever make sense is if SE starts to make White Mages the defacto tanks in the game, or gives the Empyrean Club to Paladin. And even then it would still not be very useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
At least Mjollnir still gets to sit on its thrown as the single best one hander weapon in the game. -
10-26-2011, 04:20 AMMDenhamIf your gear set can survive it (read: you're at least 1/3 HQ Blessed and a Ninurta's Sash, or at least 2/3 HQ Blessed and a Goading Belt) your head option should be a Khthonios Mask instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Granted, you're still only wearing ~20 attack in gear at best, aside from earrings/rings.
(Note: I'm not sure which of those is better right off the top of my head - sTP+4/Attack+20 or sTP+9/Attack+14 - but that's because I just woke up and don't feel like running the numbers myself. :D) -
10-26-2011, 11:57 AMRetsujoIt's not so much BRD is forced to use a staff. It's more there aren't many BRDs that try to utilize the (lacking) melee aspect of the job. At least that's how I've always seen it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
BRD can use Mandau, which at the time Relics were the main squeeze was amazing when combined with a Gjallarhorn. Major dagger damage with supreme song buffs.
BRD's Mythic Weapon has some pretty good stats with the macc and song duration (and Mordant Rime is pretty good when geared right)
BRD's Empyrean options relate to the Relics. You can get a Twashtar which is pretty good for damage, and then there's the Daurdabla which not only increases song effect duration, but includes the ability to sing a third song.
Of course the magian staff trials will trump the super-weapons over functionality for Macc. But for BRD, there aren't really many (if any) resists at 90-95, so letting go of some Macc for a super-weapon isn't really all that detrimental.
In response to OP, I think it'd be pretty neat to have a shield for these other jobs, but personally I'd like to see more Shield options for BRD and WHM. There really aren't many for either job, and even less for BRD. -
10-27-2011, 07:15 PMTsukino_KajiTefnut+shortbus aug is 21%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyg
Shortbus is already a good melee shield.
You forgot quick magic. -
01-25-2012, 08:42 AMSolrath
I'd like a shield for mages that can reflect damage and spells directed at the user... a shield with a mirror-finish. Also, is there any chance of a "Reflect" spell?
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02-01-2012, 07:37 AMDaniel_HatcherNot on WHM there wouldn't be, SE already stated WHM was AoE enhancing, and reflect is too powerful AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solrath