Clubbing It~

I have this strong urge to be a Noggin' Bopper with my WHM/nin or /dnc and I was wondering which of the Magian Clubs and what kind of gear I should be going after to melee it up. Nothing that's gonna break the bank or is too difficult to get solo or duo with a non-uber BST MNK THF.

Club: If you don't feel a relic weapon is in your future, then go for a Gamba. Offhand should be an OA2 Naboot if you don't want to bother trying to get a KClub. (OA2 Naboot at 95 lands behind lv85+ Mjollnir and Gamba, and ahead of every other club, so it's also a good third option as your main club. Not sure what you'd want to offhand to it, though; probably a STR Hoeroa +3 would be worth looking at there.)

As far as "not massively expensive and/or possible to get in a duo" gear for other slots... to be honest, that kind of restricts you somewhat. If you've got the haste pieces for Blessed, you could do Nyzul (you'll need a third person and some luck as far as what floors you get) and try for a Goliard Saio to help with a haste build, but you're not really going to be able to go for a good attack build without either dropping a lot of cash or getting help from several other people (Khthonios Mask, I'm looking at you in particular). (Accuracy isn't as much of a problem - at this point, a BST who doesn't really know what they're doing could probably solo you an O-Hat if you don't already have one. Between that and a couple of accuracy rings, you're pretty well set.)

While the WHM melee thread would be a better place to ask about this, I'll give you an answer. :p

Your single best choices for damage from the empyrean weapons will be the Empyrean club and offhanding either the 2-4 hit multihitter, or the double attack one. If the either of these are too much work, the strength clubs are good candidates. Outside of this you have the Molva Maul, and the Moepapa Mace. The Molva Maul is really simple to get, since it comes from a zone boss in Abyssea. The Moepapa Mace is fairly new and comes from Dynamis, so I'm not sure how hard it is yet.

If you live and die by the auction house, something like a Robur Mace is probably going to be your best bet for a cheap club, but ultimately, any of the things I mentioned earlier will be better.

For gear, your two most important pieces will be the Rajas Ring and the Suppanomi Earring. Fortunately, they are free.

For a haste belt, you will want to get at least a Swift Belt, but if you can, get a Goading Belt. A Walahra Turban is a good start for a TP build headpiece, but a Zelus Tiara is the best piece you can get for haste in the slot. For Hands/Legs/Feet, Blessed gear is the way to go, and the NQ is cheap. If you can, go for the HQ, and you might even be able to hit the haste cap (if you get all three pieces +2, a Goading Belt and a Zelus Tiara you will!). If you still haven't hit the Haste cap, get a Goliard Siao if you can, otherwise get the ACP body with some relevant augments. If you have hit haste cap, the ACP body will help. Keen Ring will help, as will filling your other slots with accuracy gear.

For TP, you will want to stack as much accuracy as possible without sacrificing Mind or Strength. This means peacock charm, virtuoso belt, and either an ohat, or the club headband, or best yet, the AMK cap with accuracy buffs (but this means you won't be able to get the haste/damage reduction hat for BST). After this you will want to stack as much STR and MND. STR also boosts attack, so it is slightly more important.

As a bit of a side note, if you plan on doing melee in Abyssea, made getting Atma of the Razed Ruins your priority if you don't already have it. Razed Ruins and Hexa Strike were a match made in heaven.

There are more gear pieces I probably missed and whatnot, and stuff I excluded because it costs a lot, but being a melee White Mage can be tough, since you have to put more effort out there to get the same results as top tier DDs. Getting something basic like capped haste for example, will take you more work and gil then other damage dealing classes.

Thanks for the responses, doesn't sound like it will take too long to gear up my WHM for some Hammer Time ^^

You know, now I'm hoping that the upgrade at 99 separates the names for the three different Naboot +3s, because while the "occasionally attacks twice" one is really good on its own... the DA+10 one ends up making whatever your main hand weapon is even better. Ridiculously so. (With a main-hand Mjollnir (95), it's roughly equivalent to having a DMG:91 club in your off hand.)

We'll see, I guess.

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Originally Posted by MDenham

You know, now I'm hoping that the upgrade at 99 separates the names for the three different Naboot +3s

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I doubt they would do this due to the double attack clubs. Having two of them could be very powerful. Still, being able to get the multihitter and the occasionally attacks twice one would be a nice change.

Just wondering but would the Makhila trials be worth doing for an easy/quick main-hand with OA2-4 as offhand? If so.. which would be best to get? Store TP, TP Bonus or WS Damage?

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I doubt they would do this due to the double attack clubs. Having two of them could be very powerful. Still, being able to get the multihitter and the occasionally attacks twice one would be a nice change.

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They could keep each individual one marked as rare, but you'd still have the fairly ridiculous pairing of DA+occasionally attacks twice. (Though to be honest, you probably end up putting in about equal amounts of work between a relic and the occasionally attacks twice club.)

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Originally Posted by Economizer

For TP, you will want to stack as much accuracy as possible without sacrificing Mind or Strength. This means peacock charm, virtuoso belt, and either an ohat, or the club headband, or best yet, the AMK cap with accuracy buffs (but this means you won't be able to get the haste/damage reduction hat for BST). After this you will want to stack as much STR and MND. STR also boosts attack, so it is slightly more important.

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While this was probably the case at 75 cap, in the current times of abyssea and melee-unfriendy voidwatch mobs you don't need to go overboard on accuracy. My general rule is if you need accuracy to melee on WHM then you probably shouldn't be meleeing it in the first place. In abyssea you'll more than likely be at capped accuracy with just cruor and atma buffs.

Linked to my gear sets if interested:

TP: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/139081
Hexa: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/139083
Mystic Boon: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/139087

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

While this was probably the case at 75 cap

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I worded that poorly. What I mean by "For TP" is that for when you are doing Hexa Strike, which is basically what you will be doing for most TP moves. I had the TP build when I started mentioning Haste. Looking at your Hexa Strike build, you have a fair amount of accuracy for it, so I can only assume that this contributes to my theory that my wording was bad.

On your set, if you could swap out for Blessed Pants +1 and a Goading Belt, wouldn't that be slightly better, since you could afford to lose a hit?

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Originally Posted by Synria

Just wondering but would the Makhila trials be worth doing for an easy/quick main-hand with OA2-4 as offhand? If so.. which would be best to get? Store TP, TP Bonus or WS Damage?

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I personally wouldn't bother making something just for now, but this sort of thing is a really a subjective judgement.

It takes a while to get even the Weaponskill/Store TP Magian weapons to level 95, so it's not quite as speedy to make interim weapons as it once was. Since it will be replaced either way, just buying something passable off the auction house or grabbing whatever drop is convenient seems like better deal for a temporary weapon. While the trials are super-easy and relatively quick, they do still take some amount of time and that time could be spent on the final option.

Plus, the MamasandPapas Mace which Economizer mentioned is a very solid option if the drop rate isn't nightmarish and your bros and bro-ettes feel inclined to fight the monster.

If you do opt to make an interim Magian club: WS Damage would outperform TP Bonus for Hexa-Strike damage. I'm not knowledgeable enough about hitting stuff with stuff while wearing white stuff to say anything about where the Store TP mace falls, though.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

If you do opt to make an interim Magian club: WS Damage would outperform TP Bonus for Hexa-Strike damage. I'm not knowledgeable enough about hitting stuff with stuff while wearing white stuff to say anything about where the Store TP mace falls, though.

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Store TP fails pretty hard for one handed weapons generally, unless you aren't sacrificing much to get it. For the weapon, I'd think you'd be sacrificing higher damage in general for it, so it might be too big a cost. TP Bonus doesn't really help Club all that much unless you are focusing on Black Halo, although it has some effects on Hexa Strike. The WS Damage one seems like the way to go for me.

A while back I even made one to a certain point before I thought I'd ever be able to get my hands on something stronger. Due to the difficulty of getting a killshot on mobs with a weapon skill I haven't really been working on finishing it, although I recently started working on it again for now - I think it might have some use yet.

The WS damage boost club only functions in the main hand as far as I know. As for the use, 10% extra damage generally won't outperform a much higher damage rating like the Empyrean, or back at lower levels, even the fake Relic. For a While Mage that can't get their hands on one of the super clubs, it is a fairly valid choice, but as we go up, you'll still have options that either compete strongly with or outperform the club, like the Molva Maul or the Moepapa Mace.

The biggest strength I see for now with the 10% damage boost club is that it will perform quite well during Primeval Brew compared to other clubs, particularly if you are relying on Flash Nova over Hexa Strike when using the weapon - which you generally will be doing if you cannot gear your atma to improve Hexa Strike. That said, the last time I was tasked with using a Primeval Brew on White Mage, many months ago, I believe I was using a Molva Maul and doing ~6k damage Hexa Strikes, and ~10k damage Flash Novas, without gearing for magic attack, light damage, or critical hits in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Store TP fails pretty hard for one handed weapons generally, unless you aren't sacrificing much to get it. For the weapon, I'd think you'd be sacrificing higher damage in general for it, so it might be too big a cost. TP Bonus doesn't really help Club all that much unless you are focusing on Black Halo, although it has some effects on Hexa Strike. The WS Damage one seems like the way to go for me.

A while back I even made one to a certain point before I thought I'd ever be able to get my hands on something stronger. Due to the difficulty of getting a killshot on mobs with a weapon skill I haven't really been working on finishing it, although I recently started working on it again for now - I think it might have some use yet.

The WS damage boost club only functions in the main hand as far as I know. As for the use, 10% extra damage generally won't outperform a much higher damage rating like the Empyrean, or back at lower levels, even the fake Relic. For a While Mage that can't get their hands on one of the super clubs, it is a fairly valid choice, but as we go up, you'll still have options that either compete strongly with or outperform the club, like the Molva Maul or the Moepapa Mace.

The biggest strength I see for now with the 10% damage boost club is that it will perform quite well during Primeval Brew compared to other clubs, particularly if you are relying on Flash Nova over Hexa Strike when using the weapon - which you generally will be doing if you cannot gear your atma to improve Hexa Strike. That said, the last time I was tasked with using a Primeval Brew on White Mage, many months ago, I believe I was using a Molva Maul and doing ~6k damage Hexa Strikes, and ~10k damage Flash Novas, without gearing for magic attack, light damage, or critical hits in the slightest.

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Store TP does exactly to 1H what it does to 2H, there is no favoritism going on in the math. It's a direct percentage boost to the amount of TP you get on each hit. Depends on your weapons delay is the amount you need to reduce your time to 100. It is NOT the number of hits to 100 that matters, its the amount of time it takes to get there. 2H just focus on it because they tend to /SAM and get a free +15 which is a pretty significant chunk.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Store TP does exactly to 1H what it does to 2H, there is no favoritism going on in the math.

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For White Mage, it is pretty hard to get Store TP while using DW in large amounts without sacrificing something pretty major, which is what I was referring to. I looked into it, and unless you start cutting into Haste, you generally can't get below around a dozen hits, compared to around fifteen or so otherwise.

If all else is equal, Store TP is worth going for if you can take a hit out of the build, but there isn't a lot of room for this. Most White Mages meleeing will want to wear a Rajas Ring and a Goading Belt anyways, which will do most of the work, but from there it gets harder and harder to do so, and White Mages would have to end up using stuff like a Hoard Ring or a White Tathlum that would start to have trouble taking out more then a hit from the build.

All that said, I still don't think it is as important to a White Mage holding two clubs as it is to a 2hander DD. But if it helps anything, all this talk and research into it will make me more mindful of the option in the future.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

For White Mage, it is pretty hard to get Store TP while using DW in large amounts without sacrificing something pretty major, which is what I was referring to. I looked into it, and unless you start cutting into Haste, you generally can't get below around a dozen hits, compared to around fifteen or so otherwise.

If all else is equal, Store TP is worth going for if you can take a hit out of the build, but there isn't a lot of room for this. Most White Mages meleeing will want to wear a Rajas Ring and a Goading Belt anyways, which will do most of the work, but from there it gets harder and harder to do so, and White Mages would have to end up using stuff like a Hoard Ring or a White Tathlum that would start to have trouble taking out more then a hit from the build.

All that said, I still don't think it is as important to a White Mage holding two clubs as it is to a 2hander DD. But if it helps anything, all this talk and research into it will make me more mindful of the option in the future.

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It's all about time to 100, to the absolute number of hits involved. The TP / Delay curve favors delays over 450 and under 200. Unfortunately this puts club and staff in bad positions as they both end up between those two extremes.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180] for delay's under 180

For myself as an example, A Delay 225 and 230 weapon for a combined delay of 455. 455 * .70 = 318.5/2 = 159.25 [160]
@160 my TP/Hit is 4.83 [4.8] for 100/4.8 = 20.83 [21] hits till 100. At 160 delay per hit and 60 delay per second you get 2.66 seconds per hit for a time till 100 of 55.99 seconds. This is before haste is counted and before the return on WS is counted. To reduce my hits to 20 I would need 5.0 tp/hit or 1.035 [3.5] sTP. To reduce it to 19 I would need 5.3 TP per hit or 11 sTP. To reduce it to 18 you would need 5.6 TP per hit or 17 sTP. This is about what every single 2H has to start with between /SAM and Rajas. Of course I'm not counting full TP return on ws (11.6 TP) which can dramatically lowers the TP required.

So you see, its not that sTP does more for 2H's is that they tend to start out with more then 1H/DW and because they don't need DW and often have access to better melee gear they can afford to layer on more sTP. Remember there is a food that can give you +6 sTP along with STR / Attack and HP.