[dev1024] - Pining Nocturne

From reading posts about Pining Nocturne, it seems that its duration is increased with instrument skill (and All "Songs+X" from Gjallarhorn) and it doesn't stack with Addle.

The last, bolded part has been bugging me for awhile now... It'd very odd for a Brd song to not stack with other similar enfeebling effects and the notion that it doesn't is really bothersome. It kind of takes away from how Brd can support and add to all other jobs, which I feel is and has been the core of Brd for years.

Everything in this update looks pretty nice for Brd, and I know the dev. team has their hands fairly full trying to deal with other jobs (incessant crying from Drks everywhere...) but it'd be really nice if we could get some confirmation on their thoughts behind Pining Nocturne.

Basically, please make Pining Nocturne stack with a Whm/Rdm's Addle spell. If this would truly be too overpowered, please tell us why.

If the trade-off between having it stack with Addle is not having its duration enhanced by instrument skill, then it'd be nice if they'd just lowered its base duration to that of Carnage Elegy (3min).

Thank you for reading this if you have! >.<

yes please.

yes
8675309

Pining Nocturne NOT stacking with addle does not make any sense to me. The only situation that I can think of that you would not have a WHM or RDM in party is when the main healer is a SCH. After the 95 update both WHM and RDM will have access to addle, so if it does not stack what is the point of BRD getting Pining Nocturne(song version of addle) if it does not stack.

In abyssea yes a solo BRD could be the main healer for certain parties, but outside abyssea unless the BRD is a Gjallarhorn BRD, there is very few places/party setups that a BRD can main heal.

SE didn't you want to give us more songs with offensive capabilities? Please reconsider the ability to stack Addle and Pining Nocturne, unless you are telling us bards to ONLY party with SCH's as main healers so that we can cast Pining Nocturne.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

SE didn't you want to give us more songs with offensive capabilities? Please reconsider the ability to stack Addle and Pining Nocturne, unless you are telling us bards to ONLY party with SCH's as main healers so that we can cast Pining Nocturne.

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This is something I really agree with. Since the song doesn't stack with the spell Addle, it almost creates this competition of who can cast and land Addle first on the enemy, which just seems stupid, as opposed to working together, which is what Brd (and sort of the core of FFXI) is all about.

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Originally Posted by Creelo

Everything in this update looks pretty nice for Brd, and I know the dev. team has their hands fairly full trying to deal with other jobs (incessant crying from Drks everywhere...) but it'd be really nice if we could get some confirmation on their thoughts behind Pining Nocturne.

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I kinda disagree here. I'm getting pretty sick of BRD not getting any fun new toys to play with. Every update the DDs have a cool new ability or WS to mess around with, and all BRD ever gets is underwhelming abilities (Tenuto, Marcato), Song extensions (Horde II, Carol II) and the odd cool, but incredibly situational song (Pining Nocturne, Scherzo)

I think BRDs get the rough end of an update most of the time, like we're an afterthought. There are plenty of great ideas about the job, but I feel like SE just gives us basic stuff and because we're not as vocal as some communities (Cough*DRK SAM*Cough) we never get anything done. We're only JUST NOW getting requiem fixed. There are still several useless songs and I dunno.

I feel as if we're kinda like forgotten about sometimes.

Oh I feel the same way. BRD is like a cockroach, never really evolving yet surviving each update no worse for the wear. The stability is nice, but it's also boring.

Completely agree. Nerf the strength of one, the other, or both if you have to, but the fact that brd co-exists so well with other mages has always been part of the allure of the job. Elegy stacks with slow. Requiem stacks with poison and all other DoT forms. Threnody stacks with ninjutsu ___ton spells and ancient magic. Minne and defender. Minuet and warcry. March and haste. Need I go on? Aside from lullaby and virelai, I can't think of any other songs that don't stack. (hymnus doesn't count- you can still have hymnus and reraise on at the same time).

We definitely are forgotten about in the sea of other jobs, but imo compared to all the past level cap updates for Brd, this looks like to be one of our best yet (Scars Update was also really good for Brd too though). Tenuto wasn't that underwhelming (5sec recast now should really enhance it as well), and Marcato will allow us to pretty much cap Magical haste approx. 60%~ of the time now without SV. I'm not really sure why so many peeps don't care for it. >.<

Personally, I've been waiting for Horde Lullaby II for what seems like ages. Pining Nocturne should be nice if they just let it stack with Addle...

In terms of gear, we got a Cure Potency body/cape, which I'm really excited about, among other things. Strangely, I don't think any new instruments were added though... Except for 95 Daurdabla/Gjallarhorn, which are... disappointing. >.<

Lastly, new skill tiers should allow us to hit the skill cap on Scherzo. So overall, I'm pretty excited for the update.

I'd still really like for us to get a creative, brand new type of song/buff, but sadly I just don't see it happening, considering all our songs aren't exclusive effects to our job (Except for some underwhelming songs like Dark/Light Carol, some Status resist songs, etc. You know, the songs nobody should probably be using). x.x

Yeah I can see what your saying. I just feel like... I love the job but it does need something intuitive to keep us hardcore BRDs happy. The BRDs who happily and willingly play the job.

I dunno, maybe in actual application Marcato will be better, I'm just being a bit of a stick in the mud about it atm. And yeah, seriously why update the old status spells? They were useless back then, they'll be useless now. I remember being a party with someone using Gavotte over and over again, saying it fully nullifies it :( These people shouldn't be playing the job :( :( :(

I've been asking for a new debuff for BRD for ages, so I'm really happy about Pining Nocture. About the not stacking with Addle... I dunno, it might make sense. A fully well-geared RDM using that JA enhancing the next debuff can bring Addle to really high levels, perhaps too high. Having this stack with Pining Nocture might be a bit too overpowered...
I hope Pining Nocturne will be an element different from Fire, that way you'll be able to put it on NMs that are immune to fire (and hence to Addle).

Only thing that really bothers me atm is the fact that you can't overwrite Pining Nocturne with another Pining Nocturne, i.e. making us unable to refresh it before it expires. Really hope they have changed that in the patch that will go live tonight, or that they will change it in the future.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I've been asking for a new debuff for BRD for ages, so I'm really happy about Pining Nocture. About the not stacking with Addle... I dunno, it might make sense. A fully well-geared RDM using that JA enhancing the next debuff can bring Addle to really high levels, perhaps too high. Having this stack with Pining Nocture might be a bit too overpowered...
I hope Pining Nocturne will be an element different from Fire, that way you'll be able to put it on NMs that are immune to fire (and hence to Addle).

Only thing that really bothers me atm is the fact that you can't overwrite Pining Nocturne with another Pining Nocturne, i.e. making us unable to refresh it before it expires. Really hope they have changed that in the patch that will go live tonight, or that they will change it in the future.

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It is fire based, but I was able to stick it 2/2 on Tiamat on the test server. Perhaps the devs didn't update Tiamat to make it immune to nocturne effects yet though. It does seem very accurate. I've stuck it 1/1 on Cerberus, Jormungand and Khimaira also. It didn't stick on turtles.

I've tried testing the potency of Nocturne and it seems to increase spellcasting time by 15%. I'm not too confident in that number though. It's difficult to measure spellcasting time accurately, so take that number with skepticism. I agree that Nocturne should stack with Addle, and it doesn't seem like it would be overpowered.

It bothers me too about not overwriting itself. It's nice that skill affects the duration for stacking with Marcato, but not being able to overwrite Nocturne with a stronger one when you use SV/Marcato seems to be a limitation.

SE need to address this as it really does make no sense. Camate where are you!

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Originally Posted by Cahlum

Camate where are you!

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I'm here, I'm here! :) Sorry it took a bit to get a response.

We received word back from the development team in regards to your question about why Pining Nocturne will not stack with other magic spells.

There have been a lot comments asking why it does not stack when Elegy and Slow, Carol and bar-spells, and Requiem and other DoT spells all stack. However, there are no set rules about what spells and song effects can and cannot be applied at the same time. Each spell and song is decided on a case-by-case basis along with their effects.

For example, the reasoning behind being able to stack Elegy and Slow is that the monster will still be able to use their special abilities so it’s forgivable.

On the other hand, with Nocturne and Addle, since the enemies casting time could be drastically increased, it would become possible to greatly exploit magic-focused enemies in battle.

While it’s fine to have somewhat of an advantage, however, while someone is casting it is not possible to perform any other actions, so prolonging this state is equivalent to making the enemy completely powerless which is why we decided to make the rule that the two spells cannot be stacked.

This is kind of silly and severely limits it's usefulness. Maybe the devs would consider letting the spells stack but not at full potency? Have the 2nd spell cast only add an additional 10-15% casting time? Maybe put a cap of 50% on addle so you couldn't go past the maximum value of a sabo addle from RDM? There has to be a better solution than not stacking at all.

That makes little to no sense to me. If it's too overpowered to have the song and spell stack why even bother giving it to Bard in the first place? You will almost always have a White Mage or Red Mage as a healer now, so I don't see any logic in it at all.

Make RDM more useless please.

Can we just fire the dev. team and have people that actually play and understand this game develop it?

Seriously, when's the last time you've fought a monster worth a damn that exclusively casted spells?

Most mobs generally fire off their spells (Even the -aga IVs, etc.) fairly quickly nowadays. Would it truly be that overpowered if mobs had to take an extra .5-2.5 seconds (dependent on spell) to cast their spells?

Why couldnt we test something like this out or even just play with it, the actual players? Why can't the dev. team give us actual numbers too? Instead of foggy terms like "Drastically increased casting time," how about we see something like "The combined effects of Pining Nocturne and Addle would amount to a X% increase in casting time" for once? How did the dev. team come to this conclusion that Pining Nocturne/Addle would absolutely, positively be overpowered if they stacked? I'll bet they tested it on some poor,immobile worms or something...


And how is Slow and Elegy stacking together forgivable since the mob can still use TP moves? I'm 100% sure that Addle/Nocturne would never, could never ever compare to a stacked Elegy/Slow II. Even if a mob takes just 2 seconds in between their attack rounds, Carnage Elegy alone would add another full second to their attack round (+50%). Over time, this is going to amount to way more than Addle/Nocturne affecting spells that mobs will only occasionally cast (as opposed to constantly being under their standard attack round). Not to mention, it's not like the mob casting the spell isn't going to be gaining TP from being attacked by players (or if they have Auto Regain). So what's really the big deal? I mean, I understand a mob can't use TP moves while casting spells, but really dev. team, really?? I should probably shut my trap because soon Elegy and Slow won't stack anymore, but I'll end on this.

The Dev. Team doesn't care about Bard people.

Case in point: Pining Nocturne (and Gjallarhorn... it's STILL a space saver at lvl 95!?!?!)

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Originally Posted by Camate

I'm here, I'm here! :) Sorry it took a bit to get a response.

We received word back from the development team in regards to your question about why Pining Nocturne will not stack with other magic spells.

There have been a lot comments asking why it does not stack when Elegy and Slow, Carol and bar-spells, and Requiem and other DoT spells all stack. However, there are no set rules about what spells and song effects can and cannot be applied at the same time. Each spell and song is decided on a case-by-case basis along with their effects.

For example, the reasoning behind being able to stack Elegy and Slow is that the monster will still be able to use their special abilities so it’s forgivable.

On the other hand, with Nocturne and Addle, since the enemies casting time could be drastically increased, it would become possible to greatly exploit magic-focused enemies in battle.

While it’s fine to have somewhat of an advantage, however, while someone is casting it is not possible to perform any other actions, so prolonging this state is equivalent to making the enemy completely powerless which is why we decided to make the rule that the two spells cannot be stacked.

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I'm fine with Pining Nocturne not stacking, I don't see why people have been asking for that so much.
It's pretty clear that if you allow to stack that with a Saboteur-enhanced Addle, you need to reduce the effectivity of both spells for the very same reasons Camate exposed.

There are two things that Pining Nocturne still needs though, a minor and a major.
Major: Currently Pining Nocturne doesn't overwrite itself. I think this is an unique situation within the Bard Job and should be resolved. It makes it particularly annoying to try to refresh the spell on mobs and creates several other issues when used in conjunction with other Bard Job Abilities like Marcato, Soul Voice and Troubadour.
Minor: Atm Pining Nocturne is just an "option" to use when you have no Red Mage, even though Pining Nocturne is weaker than Addle, but that's fine. What developers could and should change in my opinion is the elemental correlation of Pining Nocturne. Currently it's alligned with Fire, same as Addle, meaning that if a target is immune to fire spells, we won't be able to affect it with either Pining Nocturne or Addle. It would add much depth to the game instead if Nocturne was another element, that way on mobs where Red Mages can't stick their Addle, Bards could stick their Nocturne :)

(not taking into account the fact that White Mages recently got access to Addle too, since they don't have saboteur, nor the gear/traits/skills RDMs do. The fact that WHMs have it as well doesn't change the reasoning behind what I'm trying to say)

If the effects are so over powered then why did they give a low lvl spell that is way stronger than addle and the brd song called silence?

Oh wait, they decided to just make silence, bind, and gravity obsolete, and everything be immune. It's nice as a reward for getting our jobs leveled high to get weaker versions of spells we already have, isnt it everyone?!!!!

I don't think the issue is comparable to silence(not being able to cast), but more so spending more time casting instead of meleeing. the concern i think they have is when it does cast something like a T4/5 spell, or a -ja spell, the base casting time on those are around 8 seconds. If the mob has some native fastcast(most NMs), maybe 5 seconds casting time. With just rdm sabo+addle, that puts it up to 7.5 seconds. if nocturne did 20%, 8.5 seconds total.

Now every time the NM tries to cast those spells, that's an extra 3.5 seconds he cannot do anything. Now, I don't feel it's overpowering, but i can atleast see why they might be cautious. I feel the suggestion of allowing them to stack, but capping total at +50% is a good option.

I personally don't see the point of implementing the song to BRD. There really isn't a song that can't be stacked with the magic-equivalent version, except for now. I personally would've rather had the Requiem update so the devs could've thought about PN a little more...

I would gladly give up PN for a Paralyze or Bind song.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Major: Currently Pining Nocturne doesn't overwrite itself. I think this is an unique situation within the Bard Job and should be resolved. It makes it particularly annoying to try to refresh the spell on mobs and creates several other issues when used in conjunction with other Bard Job Abilities like Marcato, Soul Voice and Troubadour.

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No debuffs in the game that I know of save dia and bio will overwrite themselves.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

No debuffs in the game that I know of save dia and bio will overwrite themselves.

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Pretty sure elegy overwrites itself and dia/bio don't overwrite themselves as in casting bio on bio doesn't extend the duration. All you will see is the damage.

All BRD debuffs overwrite themselves with Nocturne being the one painful and relevant exception.

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Originally Posted by Creelo

Can we just fire the dev. team and have people that actually play and understand this game develop it?

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Because it's obvious players are always entirely objective and are happy to admit when they're OP and need of serious nerfing when it's appropriate .. er .. wait.

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Originally Posted by detlef

All BRD debuffs overwrite themselves with Nocturne being the one painful and relevant exception.

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^ This.
I was talking from a BRD point of view of course, not about other jobs.

After reading camate's post i understand WHY they won't it stack, if a mob is taking to long to cast you can bascialy beat it down aka zerg while it's trying to cast but then i ask.....why would you give brd the song in the 1st place, addle is quick and easy to cast, and now that whm has it there is pretty much now no you'll be without unless they are encouring BRD only healers,

which can be possible, but with there base MP pool which there is 0 without a Mp releated SJ, that isn't going to work very well, what was the plan exactly? i mean it's bad enough every single New NM is immune to silence, bind and gravity, are they trying to snuff out the enfeebling phase?

a week ago somone tried to sell me the scroll for 1.5 mil and i told him he was bascily nuts and i ended up spending 100 k on it 3 days later...thank god i was not that stupid..but now even the 100k didnt seem worth it.

Yes, I completely forgot WHM got it at 93, that changes a lot of things imho. Takes more of RDM's uniqueness away to give it to a job that honestly didn't need a new enfeeble at all (WHM).

From this point of view only making Nocturne a different element (hence allowing you to stick it on mobs immune to fire) could give it a small amount of usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Creelo

Basically, please make Pining Nocturne stack with a Whm/Rdm's Addle spell. !

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The fact that this was said, in this order, before the update, just made the RDM in me cry. Weep, actually. Weep painful tears of regret, and defeat. I feel as though I have been violated by the deviousness of WHMs and BLMs. Go ahead, take my Convert and my exclusive spells. I have Shield Mastery.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Yes, I completely forgot WHM got it at 93, that changes a lot of things imho. Takes more of RDM's uniqueness away to give it to a job that honestly didn't need a new enfeeble at all (WHM).

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Let's just give Addle, Gravity, and Hymnus to WARs and MNKs. Oh, and DRKs. There. Now those three jobs can stop /wrist and we can all move on to better jobs, like RNG and DNC. But it's ok, because the endgame just consists of a tank and a healer with 209557w947275 people watching the HP whittle, so who needs Addle? "W" was on accident, but left there for emphasis.

Oh, and SAMs need to DW GKs because that would make sense, and, in turn, make them badasses.

As you can see, I am bitter about this spell/effect; I feel your pain, BRDs. Hat tip to Camate for giving a reason for the inconsistancy, at least. Sorry to threadjack. ; ;

At first they were

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

Red Mage

* Vision
Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.

* Example Adjustments
o Adding abilities that reduce to zero the casting time or recast time for the next spell/ninjutsu/song.
o New enfeebling magic spells.

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But then they

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Originally Posted by Camate

I'm here, I'm here! :) Sorry it took a bit to get a response.

We received word back from the development team in regards to your question about why Pining Nocturne will not stack with other magic spells.

There have been a lot comments asking why it does not stack when Elegy and Slow, Carol and bar-spells, and Requiem and other DoT spells all stack. However, there are no set rules about what spells and song effects can and cannot be applied at the same time. Each spell and song is decided on a case-by-case basis along with their effects.

For example, the reasoning behind being able to stack Elegy and Slow is that the monster will still be able to use their special abilities so it’s forgivable.

On the other hand, with Nocturne and Addle, since the enemies casting time could be drastically increased, it would become possible to greatly exploit magic-focused enemies in battle.

While it’s fine to have somewhat of an advantage, however, while someone is casting it is not possible to perform any other actions, so prolonging this state is equivalent to making the enemy completely powerless which is why we decided to make the rule that the two spells cannot be stacked.

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So you decided that red mages were suppose to make monsters impotent, but then you decided that you didn't want monsters to be impotent, so can you update the job manifesto to lolrdm?

Tiamat resists nocturne now.