So, considering SE did a 180 on NIN and went from "damage support puller" to "tank", is it possible other jobs could go through this change in vision?
The obvious follow up topic is of course melee SMN. It has a very strong support (roughly the same as melee RDM), and it has just like NIN evolved from players observing what the job is capable of.Quote:
Masters of ninjutsu who can handle both offense and defense, adjusting to the tides of battle at a moment's notice.
We'd like to see ninjas succeed at taking the heat off other party members by drawing enemies' attention and adroitly evading their attacks or slinking around in the shadows to strike with physical attacks and elemental ninjutsu while the target is otherwise occupied.
But lets take a quick history lesson. SMNs have for a long time been used as healers, since they were pretty lackluster for anything else. SE noticed this, and has kept treating SMN as a healing job with giving us access to even more cure potency than a WHM.
If you ask me, it is about time they did a re-check on the job status. SMN is no longer used as healers, and have very little interest in cure potency armors or other general mage armors. Empyrean armor made it look like they were heading for the right direction, not that anyone expected cure potency on those armors. But since Abyssea, I've seen a rather lacking amount of armor selection for SMN, as per usual. There is that "ifrit only ring" which is nice but again very situational. There is also a belt, which is nice. But apart from that I haven't spotted any "improves SMN" armors since Empyrean armor. The whole armor set for Voidwatch is just lackluster.
Now, assuming we could get SE to re-evaluate our job again, it would be nice if this stretched out to armors as well.
As can be seen, SE has caught on to the "Use main job instead of heal" except they are still roughly 3 years behind. They think our current way of playing is using avatars from the back while supporting with cures. This is simply not true. A fair amount of us have moved up our aid to the front line. (Only the most daring ones, the others are so far too afraid of the front lines).Quote:
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies
We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.
Since SE could notice the strong support for NIN tanks, I hope SE can take note of the need for more hybrid melee gear for SMN. I saw that the upcoming update would have a belt or cape or something with 5% haste and 5% pet haste. Good job! But we need much more along these lines, and particularly for SMN (which you for some reason forget on all the armors you give to PUP/BST)
Together we can expand on Summoner to be envision as a support mage that either supports safely from the back, or engages the enemy to give another form of support. Just how NIN was allowed to grow into both a tank and a sneaky assassin.
A short example of minor possible adjustments:
Traits:
- Accuracy Bonus I (level 50?)
- Subtle blow up to tier IV
- Avatars subtle blow to tier IV as well
Weaponskills:
- All staff weapon skills
Abilities:
- An ability that allows you to transfer TP from avatar to SMN (level 60?)
- An ability that consumes a spirit to enhance your elemental resistance and give you an en-spell effect (level 20?)
Armors:
More hybrids like:
- 5% haste, 5% pet haste, Store TP+10
- -3 perpetuation, pet accuracy, pet Double Attack
- +MP, +STR, TP bonus, Summoning magic +5
And similar mixes.
If Dragoon could convince SE to make their 2 hour into a 20 min Job Ability "Because that is how we want to play" and NIN could claim tank roles "Because that is how we want to play", surely us SMNs can advance into the melee territory "Because that is how we want to play" as well.
(Note, not everyone wants to tank on NIN and not everyone wants to melee on SMN. Though I think for some odd reason everyone on DRG wants a wyvern. Go figure)
I am simply inspired by the progress NINs have made over the years, and wish to attempt getting the same thing through for SMN. Luckily 75% of the issues can be solved by armor selection being more similar to BST and PUP than WHM and BLM.
As a summary:
Consider that there are melee SMNs and backline SMNs, just how there are tank NINs and sneaky NINs. Expand the job vision to accomdate for how people play the job.
Start working with putting SMN on armors that BST and PUP have access to. Later construct hybrid armors with SMN stats and BST/PUP stats.
It is very little work (setting SMN on armors is just tagging for example), and the boost to the job will be significant for those of us who love testing our limits.
PS. Even if people were to disagree, I'd be happy if SE just plain stopped adding more WHM and BLM armors to SMN. Anything else than that will be fine.
When visions clash
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09-10-2011, 08:36 AMMalamasalaWhen visions clash
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09-10-2011, 09:12 AMSpankWustler
Wouldn't it be more productive for the development bros to just re-evaluate exactly how long 45 seconds can be and play towards Summoner's strengths, rather than striving to realize your vision?
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09-10-2011, 09:41 AMSoranika
I'd rather see multiple jobs be able to have different builds to approach a situation. Don't have to compete with another job, but at least be usable in that field. Job discrimination is at an all time high and people will quickly deny you if you don't play the way they think you should at your job. Some arguments aren't without merit though, like lack of equipment, job abilities, and subjob limitations for certain main jobs that people would like to play out side the box. Then there are those, like NIN, that are played completely different from the way they were intended to.
I can't help but wonder what FFXI balance would be like if PVP was actually focused on. I wont' dare compare to other MMOs but I do miss when people liked diversity because it was actually welcome in a PVP setting. It's all PVM on FFXI mostly, so one begins to wonder why people are so anal about how to play it. I find it sad that as a main SMN I rarely play it now cause people think the job is mostly useless, especially my LS. I hate playing WHM but apparently SCH and DNC are "useless" too for the things I want to do. What's the point of playing the game if you can't play the way you'd like without being ostracized from the community at large? -
09-10-2011, 07:58 PMMalamasalaI believe 3 seconds of adding "SMN" to an armor that already has BST and PUP on would not count as unproductive.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
But i agree that they could also evaluate how many actions other jobs do in 45 seconds and how many SMN does so they can get the new BP delay down ability balanced. It is slightly off topic, but I always thought it was silly that I had pacts that did 100 damage and debuffed, and due to 100 damage it had to have 50 seconds longer recast than a RDM or WHM debuff spells, or even compared to BLUs who can just spam head butt while ramuh's shock strike requires near a minute recast. -
09-11-2011, 01:03 AMscaevola
If it worked like that, DRG would be able to wear Haubergeon.
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09-11-2011, 01:48 AMAverIt's always bugged me that they couldn't, when their AF is plate, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by scaevola
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09-11-2011, 02:07 AMDeadvinta
Because the Empyrean Summoner looks like a tribal villager, I say we give them access to spears.
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09-11-2011, 02:14 AMAver
It's always looked like pajamas to me, therefore teddy bears.
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09-11-2011, 02:24 AMLeonlionheart
If this is going to be done, do it through Lv.99 merits.
Jobs need a higher level of customization. -
09-11-2011, 03:33 AMsvengalis
I am not sure ninja is a tank as you make it out to be. From my experience in abyssea ninja is the third best DD only out classed by war and maybe blm.
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09-11-2011, 06:53 AMMalamasala
It is more that it can tank if you want to, and that SE acknowledged that people liked that way of playing and started adding armors with things like +enmity and -PDT. So it would be nice if SMN could be getting some more melee oriented armors as well, just like BST and PUP, since that is a very good type of armors that is just plain sad to not have access to.
Sometimes I think they do it just to be mean. Like the Dynamis drops that have "enhances pet: All jobs except SMN". It's like you wonder why a WAR would want enhanced pets, and why SMN isn't allowed to. -
09-11-2011, 07:49 AMDeadvinta
They might be afraid of SMN being as good as RDM was.
They seem to be afraid of decent diversity in anything but Dancer. -
09-11-2011, 11:59 AMShiyo
Dancer is a bad useless job with no point though. SMN has alexander/voidwatch and RDM has outside abyssea.
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09-11-2011, 02:59 PMVortexQuite possibly the stupidst thing i have ever read. have you ever unlocked, no.. have you ever SEEN a DNC before?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
Oh cool Meele SMN, let's go ahead na ask for cure 4-6 for WAR, SAM, and DRK while at it.
in fact, let's go ahead and give BLM the ability to equip a Great Axe with A+ skill and let them have unkons fury naturually. -
09-11-2011, 05:12 PMAlhanelemAnd RDM *isn't* a useles sjob with no point right now (mainly in abyssea)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
You're being silly. DNC is amazing for solo play and is also a useful in a support role and a useful subjob. (RDM has its place too- I was merely trying to illustrate how off-base Shiyo's statement is.) -
09-11-2011, 05:46 PMKit_Katz
There is just so much wrong with your post I can't even begin to comprehend the thought process behind it. Slapping Smn on some odd melee gear here and there like they do for Whm is fine and using it in your free time in campaign and solo is great. I love to melee on my whm when I have the chance to kill something by myself for fun. But as soon as you seriously try to regularly melee things in a group event you should be mpk'd, have your mob cfh'd, then your party should kick you or warp.
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09-12-2011, 12:42 AMAlhanelemYou really need to take a deep breath and realize this is a GAME you're playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kit_Katz
See above. And stop hating on people because you don't like the way they play. Maybe other people don't like the way you play dancer. But they sure as hell don't rage on you and behave like you have just now.Quote:
*wall of nonsense part 2*