Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

Right now I use apoc/rr/VV could SS be potentially better?

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Originally Posted by xbobx

Right now I use apoc/rr/VV could SS be potentially better?

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SS = Smoldering Sky? Sanguine Scythe? Shimmering Shell? Sundering Slash? Shattering Star? Siren Shadow?

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I thought everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe lol.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

I thought everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe lol.

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What gave you that thought? "everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe"?... <.<''

I don't have Sanguine Scythe primarily because, in my opinion my critical hit dmg is maxed using Razed Ruins + merits in critical hit... since Sanguine Scythe's only other benefit is +hpts and a minor +enmity, you'll gain more mileage using Apoc/Razed and another atma which either gives you a greater tp regain effect/regen effect or double attack effect.

So I use the following (situational at best depending on mob):

Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Voracious Violet (if I don't need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Siren Shadow (if I do need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Ducal Guard (if I want my Automaton to tank w/ me assisting)

I typically only use Apocalypse if I know there's a high chance of being K.O'd.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

What gave you that thought? "everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe"?... <.<''

I don't have Sanguine Scythe primarily because, in my opinion my critical hit dmg is maxed using Razed Ruins + merits in critical hit... since Sanguine Scythe's only other benefit is +hpts and a minor +enmity, you'll gain more mileage using Apoc/Razed and another atma which either gives you a greater tp regain effect/regen effect or double attack effect.

So I use the following (situational at best depending on mob):

Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Voracious Violet (if I don't need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Siren Shadow (if I do need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Ducal Guard (if I want my Automaton to tank w/ me assisting)

I typically only use Apocalypse if I know there's a high chance of being K.O'd.

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Lets go with: "everyone who does DD knows that SS is sanguine scythe"

1) your critical hit rate isnt caped, its probably at 66-70% out of 100
2) SS adds critical hit dmg. caped at 100% now and you are probably at 30% with just RR since almost not pup gear or merits add to it
3) you should never use sea daughter unless you are just procing red/blue on mobs, inwhich case you shouldn't be on pup anyways. You should be on monk, nin, war with vv/sea daughters/sundering or some similar combination.

Ideally you want 100% crit and 100% crit dmg, the question bob is asking is does 30% crit dmg out weigh 10% DA with 2 regain.

I am coming out with the following using kinematics pup spread sheet, which I dont know if it corrects for the new 100% cap, but even if it doesnt, ss still wins.

ss/rr/apoc : 273
vv/rr/apoc : 269
gh/rr/apoc : 266

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

Lets go with: "everyone who does DD knows that SS is sanguine scythe"

1) your critical hit rate isnt caped, its probably at 66-70% out of 100
2) SS adds critical hit dmg. caped at 100% now and you are probably at 30% with just RR since almost not pup gear or merits add to it
3) you should never use sea daughter unless you are just procing red/blue on mobs, inwhich case you shouldn't be on pup anyways. You should be on monk, nin, war with vv/sea daughters/sundering or some similar combination.

Ideally you want 100% crit and 100% crit dmg, the question bob is asking is does 30% crit dmg out weigh 10% DA with 2 regain.

I am coming out with the following using kinematics pup spread sheet, which I dont know if it corrects for the new 100% cap, but even if it doesnt, ss still wins.

ss/rr/apoc : 273
vv/rr/apoc : 269
gh/rr/apoc : 266

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So you would sacrifice +5 or +7 tp regain on both you and your automaton, in addition to (during daytime only) +30 regen effect on both you and your automaton for a pretty low triple attack effect? (because that's pretty much all your getting with melee using Apoc)?

Speaking from experience, not using Sea Daughter (which also means decreasing the number of darkness skill-chains), is seriously gimping your damage output. It all comes down to personal choice.

And since I don't use Sanguine Scythe, I'd be speaking out of turn to reflect on it...so kudos to those that do use it.

Sea Daughter has a little under +15% slow on it, which you're neglecting to mention. If you're not a Ranger or Corsair, it's not your friend. It is, in fact, your enemy. Your mortal enemy.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Sea Daughter has a little under +15% slow on it, which you're neglecting to mention. If you're not a Ranger or Corsair, it's not your friend. It is, in fact, your enemy. Your mortal enemy.

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The Slow effect is negligible; considering the bonuses involved. I suggest to anyone that "doesn't" have it; give it a spin and see if it works for you.

Thanks for the responses. I chuckled a little at the fact there is a kinematics pup spread sheet. All seem fairly close it seems at least. VV is nice when you are walking around, moving from spot to spot because you and puppet will both have TP ready. Maybe nice on nms where you have to sit back and wait until yellow or red is processed, then you can darkness on the mob.

GH is obviously nice when you are soloing easier things, get better protection but lose only a small amount.

SS seems good if you are just non stop wailing on things. And SS should be bigger pummels which means more added darkness dmg.

Good info.

From what i remember Adding SS ontop of RR for jobs without the "Critical attack bonus" trait will still result in 30% damage boosted because without the trait the cap is still 50% and if atma do not take full effect they don't take affect at all

meaning that 30+30 will not be capped at 50 but the 2nd Boost will do nothing.

i havnt tryed for this on pup tho i mainly GH/RR/Apoc because crit rate is when your attack is ***<3


also lol'd at the SD atma guy that's *** hilariousness.

Well what I heard was critical damage bonus use to be capped at 50% but people have said SE removed that cap and raised it to 100%. So yes, SS all depends on if that cap was raised or not. I like GH just because almost every hit is a crit and it just makes you feel strong. AGI is modifier for Sharpshot's WS is that true, they said that is best combo RR,GH,Apoc for ranger puppet?
I tend to use VE just because I don't have VS and VE is less maintenance and sometimes i feel lazy.

I'm pretty sure SE raised the cap although it wasn't an official declaration but I remember someone in the DRK forums swearing up and down that the crit cap being raised was such BS since it kinda rained on the parade of the Last Resort buff.

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

I'm pretty sure SE raised the cap although it wasn't an official declaration but I remember someone in the DRK forums swearing up and down that the crit cap being raised was such BS since it kinda rained on the parade of the Last Resort buff.

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it was me <_<;;;

Also i know Of the cap increase i was saying that without this trait ->LINK

somewhere i thought i saw that without that trait the cap is still 50%

oh i see. wasn't really commenting on your commenting btw just that it was memorable and i tie it to me having learned of the crit cap being raised

Edit: Also bit of an awkward moment xD

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Originally Posted by xiozen

The Slow effect is negligible; considering the bonuses involved. I suggest to anyone that "doesn't" have it; give it a spin and see if it works for you.

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Feel free to do what you want to yourself and your automaton, but please refrain from spreading misinformation when providing advice. It's ~15% Slow and that's ~15% less damage. That's a huge drawback which you didn't even see fit to mention.

Well, unless that mysterious hidden effect on Animator +1 is to negate all negative effects of Atma.

Its actually quite worse then just 15% less damage.

When you factor in that its 'gear' haste, and that it slows your pet as well your looking at base line 30% less damage. And no ammount of epeen ws will compensate for that.

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Originally Posted by Jar

also lol'd at the SD atma guy that's *** hilariousness.

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Glad I gave you a good laugh.. now go out and get SD for yourself^.^/ You'll love it.

erm, i use SD all the time for triggering blue/reds, and I can honestly say my dps takes a HUGE hit when i use SD over any other of the common DD atma.

The only time it would be good is if you had 40% gear haste...

On a side note, you can just shorten your sig to:

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They see me trollin, they hatin....

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since every time you post its just another set of obviously bad information.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

The Slow effect is negligible

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Are you serious saying 15% Slow is negligible? Or am I missing something here?
I'm just asking, not trolling.

If you're serious I'm afraid you're underestimating the strenght of Haste (and, consequentially, the influence of Slow) and hence I suggest you give a quick look to THIS thread.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

for a pretty low triple attack effect?

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It's not "pretty low", it's actually pretty high. 15% is a very good number and don't forget as a Martial artist you get double the chances to proc it on each attack turn. That is 15% for left fist and 15% for right fist, on each attack round.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

It's not "pretty low", it's actually pretty high. 15% is a very good number and don't forget as a Martial artist you get double the chances to proc it on each attack turn. That is 15% for left fist and 15% for right fist, on each attack round.

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Not to mention the pet gets it too, as well as weaponskills like Victory Smite and Stringing Pummel.

Yes, the first two hits of each weapon skill get a 15% chance to proc it, as far as the total number of hits remains under 8.
Which means that you get a 15%x2 chance to get FOUR additional hits on Victory Smite, for example, and all of those four hits also have a chance to be criticals, with all the bonus that Razed Ruins brings along concerning critical hits.

I'm not a big fan of AoApocalypse Myself for other silly OCD reasons, but it's undeniable that it's one of the highest damage enhancing Atmas. Anybody can check it out with MATHEMATIC PROOF (i.e. not single users' opinions) running a Spreadsheet, for example Kinematic's/Motenten's.

I'm not an elitist, I don't have big problems accepting people who say "I don't want to use it for this or that silly reason", but spreading wrong information and saying it's a "meh" atma or that it's a "pretty low" triple attack is just wrong, imho.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

It's not "pretty low", it's actually pretty high. 15% is a very good number and don't forget as a Martial artist you get double the chances to proc it on each attack turn. That is 15% for left fist and 15% for right fist, on each attack round.

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Sorry but it is very low for... for a "slow" effect... and it's not 15%, its less than 12%

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Originally Posted by xiozen

Sorry but it is very low for... for a "slow" effect... and it's not 15%, its less than 12%

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The 15% in my post, which you have quoted, refers to the "Triple Attack" bonus that "Atma of Apocalypse" provides to each of your (and your automaton's) fists on each attack turn.

Concerning the "Slow" effect on Atma of the Sea Daughter it was supposed to be approximately 15%, but even if we were talking about 10% it would still be a very large amount.
Again, I'm afraid you're not yet fully grasping the full exent of the power that comes from the "Haste" stat within the game mechanics of Final Fantasy XI, so I kindly invite you once more to read the very nice and explicative thread which I linked to you in one of my previous posts.

just adding: RR/VV/Apoc is my preferred combo with VE or just soloing (swap VV for stout arm with sharpshot, keep VV for valorshot) the double attack and regain rate, improve your automatons ws rate dramatically as well as your own.

dont forget the 50 str, which is a pummel mod, and base atk. SS might net higher spike damage, but VV will guarantee you a much much higher ws rate, and much more damage over time if you play aggresive. on average, except for random triple attacks, my pummels stay relatively close to my ls mnk's smites with that atma combo, with my VE frame hitting almost as often for 2.5k string shredders.
overall its a nice sett-up to use, that allows flexibility in subjob and survivability.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Anybody can check it out with MATHEMATIC PROOF (i.e. not single users' opinions) running a Spreadsheet, for example Kinematic's/Motenten's.

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Proof? Let me give you the definition of proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you. It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion (is the developer of the kinematics spreadsheet) a prior SE developer of the FFXI game? In order for me to use someone elses' formulas and calculations (who knows where the raw data originated from... ) Its so easy to "hmm tweak this and tweak that..." to make it fit an equation in excel it's not even funny--and to have people blindly follow along assuming the information is correct, this is based off of their own lack of knowledge...

I can only assume the blind leading the blind, because, ta da...we're not developers of this game, merely players...that can, at most, use what has been provided to use and try to determine how best it fits our gaming needs.

So please, spare me to...link to said spreadsheet to prove anything... its a waste of time. I prefer to "try things out on my own and experience them first hand" to base my opinion on what works and what does not work...then I share those "experiences" (key word) with others.

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Originally Posted by esoR

just adding: RR/VV/Apoc is my preferred combo with VE or just soloing (swap VV for stout arm with sharpshot, keep VV for valorshot) the double attack and regain rate, improve your automatons ws rate dramatically as well as your own.

dont forget the 50 str, which is a pummel mod, and base atk. SS might net higher spike damage, but VV will guarantee you a much much higher ws rate, and much more damage over time if you play aggresive. on average, except for random triple attacks, my pummels stay relatively close to my ls mnk's smites with that atma combo, with my VE frame hitting almost as often for 2.5k string shredders.
overall its a nice sett-up to use, that allows flexibility in subjob and survivability.

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If you don't mind... I've used RR/VV/APoc but have yet to see a 2.5k, unless it's on a mob that's weak to that type of attack (slash)... if you can recall, what mobs were you fighting that gave consistent 2.5k string shreds using that atma combo; and what attachments did you use--I would like to try it out... I've been fighting in Uleg. Range [A] more so lately on metal mobs. Thx!

I get approx 2.5k string shredders all the time. Sorry Xiozen everyone is telling you that you are wrong because you are very wrong. I have never ever seen any melee person use Sea Daughter unless its to process, ever. Are you seriously that stubborn that you can't just admit you are wrong? Are you that afraid to be wrong?

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Originally Posted by xiozen

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you.

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I don't think I "professed" anything. I think I rather stated, but maybe we're getting into a linguistic knot. As it should be clear enough from my posts English is not my mother language, furtherly it's offtopic to the goals of our discussion so let's leave it away for now, shall we?

The important part about this quoted sentence is that final "for you". Mathematics, at least this kind of math, is not relative. It is, period. It's objective, it's not an opinion, there's not a "for me", a "for you", a "for him".
Motenten is not a perfect being without flaws, he's a human being and hence susceptible to mistakes, but his work has been checked by several people, it's not just his own work. You can check it yourself if you open the xls file and do some deep analysys of the math imbued in that file.
It has reliability.
It has proof because it's not someone stating an opinion or reporting a parse data with a non-statistically reliable number of fights.
It's not someone just sharing his personal opinion.
It's mostly just raw ojbective mathematical data.
As imperfect as that may be (since it's obviously impossible to realize a mathematical model that includes each and every variable that could possibly happen) it's certainly much closer to "perfection" than any of our personal opinion because it's supported by:
1) a reliable, objective and efficient mathematical model
2) a great amount of data
3) it is consistent (reproducible)

It's a bit preposterous that I'm the one advocating such things, since I'm definitely a pretty math-ignorant kind of person, it feels a bit awkward.

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It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion

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You see, once again I don't wanna say that you are "wrong", I wanna be optimistic and just guess that you still haven't got the concept behind it.
It is NOT Kinematic's or ANYBODY else's opinion. It is NOT an opinion
Kinematic's spreadsheet is not an assembled document of opinions.
It is an instrument.
You don't just "read" it, you "use" it.
To use a metaphor, it's not a table with a lot of numbers and people's comments suggesting which numbers to use.
It's more like a calculator allowing you to perform several mathematical operations to get objective data. FROM this objective data (which is mostly undeniable and hardly susceptible to opinions) each of us can get to his own personal conclusions and decisions according to the content he has to do, his gear or just his own personal preference.
I trust it's clearer now? I hope :) Or maybe someone with a better knowledge of the english language might attempt to explain things to you in a more efficient way.

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and to have people blindly follow

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There's nothing to "blindly follow" in a spreadsheet. It has no indications. As I mentioned before it's just an instrument in your own hands. He just provides raw objective data, it's you who decide what to do with that data and which conclusions to get to.

But again, why are we discussing so much about Kine's or anybody elses's spreadsheet? What's the point? A Spreadsheet is mostly used to fine-tune a character or to make a better decision on something you're unsure of. There can be some big surprises there.


The big point of our discussion here is rather the thing about slow, and that has little to do with Kine's spreadsheet. Did you manage to read the link I suggested above? Even my grandmother could probably understand it.
Hell, even I am able to understand that sort of things and trust me I've never been good with math and related stuff.

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I can only assume the blind leading the blind

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Stop making silly philosophy.
We're not in a lesson of sociology here, and we're not discussing about the moral value of leading people and people being led.
No space to make ideology or even discuss about them.
We're just talking about data and objective mathematical stuff, don't take a further step please and try to stay focused on this.
I don't know if someone's been rude to you or if you're taking this too personal.
If you just don't fully grasp the importance of the Haste mechanic in a game like FFXI it's no big deal, nobody did at first, right?
It's no problem, just get yourself informed, feed yourself with that "knowledge" you talk of, and you'll realize for yourself what other people have been more or less educatedly trying to tell you :)

In response to Zhronne, very lengthy post... and I'll just end it here with reiterating my position--I'm not asking for confirmation--I don't need any, really I don't. But nevertheless I do (believe it or not) appreciate seeing others opinions, and we all have a way to play. So I'll leave it at that...and again, thx for the feedback, much appreciated. ^.^

Xiozen nobody says you have to change your playstyle, your atmas, your gear, your macros.
I hate when people do that to me, especially when I didn't ask for advice. I really hate it.
I'm one of the silliest players around and well renokwn for doing silly and stupid things (wanna know one of the many? Back at 75 I was TPing in full Usu on my sam despite having Haidate, Dusk and lots more!).

I agree and concur that everybody should be more than free to play however they sees fit. I hate that kind of elitism, especially because the majority of those people don't even understand what they're saying, they're just blindly following somebody else, and with this I agree with what you' were saying earlier.

But the point here is spreading wrong information and refusing to admit things. If you were to say "It's ok I know this and I know that but I prefer to keep playing this way because XXX" there would be no problem at all on my side. The reason XXX could be any and trust me I wouldn't judge you.
The problem here is kinda different though, since you're just being touchy, proud and stubborn.
Just wanted to say that nobody here, or at least not me, wanted to make you change your ways. It was rather an attempt to raise your awarness about something, but so far you returned each attempt to the sender, so I guess that's a clear signal of something.

What can I say in the end, sorry we disturbed you?

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

But the point here is spreading wrong information and refusing to admit things. If you were to say "It's ok I know this and I know that but I prefer to keep playing this way because XXX" there would be no problem at all on my side. The reason XXX could be any and trust me I wouldn't judge you.
The problem here is kinda different though, since you're just being touchy, proud and stubborn.
Just wanted to say that nobody here, or at least not me, wanted to make you change your ways. It was rather an attempt to raise your awarness about something, but so far you returned each attempt to the sender, so I guess that's a clear signal of something.

What can I say in the end, sorry we disturbed you?

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As to the above quote, I can really say the same thing about everyone on this post, including you... so at this point, it's kinda "meh"..to me. ^^ I'm sure there are plenty of other topics to discuss right about now. I'm over it.

dude Zhronne if you speak to the trolls or they win it's like rule #14

Sadly i wish he was a troll, at least it would all make sense

1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor
2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does
3) says theres a difference between automaton behavior with different animators
4) offers no proof/evidence
5) says animator affect stacks with tactical processor
6) no proof or evidence
7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor.

I mean its very clear the tendency to pass on bad information, but i really dont think hes trolling, just very, very very uneducated about game mechanics

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

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Originally Posted by TimeMage

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

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i have a full EVA build i macro in like PDT for TP moves that are physical <.< because it works from what i've seen but i have a mix set(haste/eva) i use for normal eva tanking <.<

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

Sadly i wish he was a troll, at least it would all make sense

1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor
2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does
3) says theres a difference between automaton behavior with different animators
4) offers no proof/evidence
5) says animator affect stacks with tactical processor
6) no proof or evidence
7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor.

I mean its very clear the tendency to pass on bad information, but i really dont think hes trolling, just very, very very uneducated about game mechanics

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1) Absolutely-- and let me add, combine this with the Optic Fiber attachment
2) By doing what I ask, the proof is in the pudding :) You'll experience it for yourself.
3) There is a HUGE difference between animators... If you need proof.../sigh... equip the level 1 animator and use a non-mage frame for better results, fight colibri (use attachments that don't rely on magic recast) but focus on job ability related actions... use a stop watch or other mechanism for counting secs... count use the appropriate maneuvers to activate the abilities associated with the attachments you have on your automaton... note the difference, between each specific job related action (not necessarily melee swings)... do this for about 10-15 mins. Then swap out either +1 version or Deluxe version... I haven't done this with the Turbo, but the results should be the same. Why give you something if you already possess it within yourselves to recreate :P
4) See #3
5) see #1 lol
6) see previous numbers... /sigh
7) edit...never called TA 15%.... i stated that the triple attack was small and that the slow given by SD was more like 12% and not 15%, and yes it is negligible when you use a multi-weapon, and your pet has a +7 tp regain effect (if you liked using Burts, using this atma combined with VV, your automaton will most likely spam it's tp move, or if you have an inhibitor attached, you'll be able to do wonders setting up a mob for major pain).

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right :) You use it, well so can I.

/cheers

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Originally Posted by TimeMage

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

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I wasn't gonna respond...but i have no choice... dubious choice of weapon DA H2H? Do you own a pair? Look at the gear we have, how much of it gives Double Attack? Actually, let me back up, I assumed a H2H job would love to Double Attack or even Triple Attack or better yet, Quadruple Attack... I do! A LOT!... initially I created and used the OccAttck 2-4...(suprised...? :) That weapon WAS freakin' the bomb for continues Stringing Pummels... (stacked on subtle blow to minimize tp gain on the mob worked fairly well)... now, as player level increased, the +dmg vers Double Attck became more of an enticement--so I elected to re-do the trials and now I own a weapon that I absolutely love. I don't know about you but I have a life outside of Final Fantasy and until I get the ultimate weapon for PUP I desire, Kenkonken, I'll settle for these--multi-hit, excellent dmg (+30 and soon to be +33 with update), stacks with Double attack from gear... combined with evasion set, combined with TP regain on both master and automaton... (I macro in Cirque +2 for weapon skill)... so yea... I enjoy the job a lot. So if it's dubious to you, then we have different play styles... pray tell...what is your play style on pup?

Is someone still seriously recommending Tactical Processor after SE already told us what it does? Its complete crap. The Overload risk is not worth it checking to Silena you once more per minute. Its simply not worth wasting a spot on.

Oh and Xio, I hear what you're saying, But you're still very wrong. 5tp/tic Regain is not worth a 12% Slow on its own, let alone considering the Alternative is 15% Triple Attack.

No one here is suggestion you change your playstyle, But the advice you are giving is bad. No PUP serious about DD'ing should put on a Atma with 12%Slow. That significantly hurts you and your pet.

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A Bit more on Topic, as for Atma combos for PUP, I generally use RR/GH/Apoc, or sometimes VV/RR/Apoc. RR/SS/Apoc for the lulz occasionally. But i think VV/RR/Apoc is my favorite for DD. RR/GH/Apoc being very close second.