Isn't it strange how Ninjas are tanks?

I mean if you take a look at an actual Ninja they are quite the opposite and focus on the bodies weak points.

It'd make a lot more sense if Samurai was a tank class. I mean they are suited in armor.

Just thought it was rather odd.

Samurai is a tank class...

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Originally Posted by Frost

Samurai is a tank class...

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And when was the last time you seen them tank?

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Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

And when was the last time you seen them tank?

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When was the last time a Paladin tanked?

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Originally Posted by Frost

When was the last time a Paladin tanked?

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Sometime before Abyssea.

The exact same time Sam was tanking.

Samurai would have made the more appropriate tank/dd because you think of Samurai as being people who can take damage, who can parry a weapon or even dodge an attack (hence third eye) and it would work if done right - but Samurai as a class is more appreciated for its ability to deal damage. Ninjas are assassins who lurk in the shadows to be unseen and use tools and deceive their foes in order to cast their striking blow - so it's appropriate they get Utsusemi and use Ninja tools. As Ninjas are great at not getting hit, suddenly that makes them a good tank. I suspect Ninja was instended as a DD job, but it worked out to be a pretty decent tank. Particuarly in Abyssea, it seems the emphasis is not on taking damage, but rather avoiding it and THF and NIN both do that very well. It might be why we see fewer PLD, they're fantastic tanks, but they're about absorbing damage rather than avoiding it or at least, don't avoid it as much as a NIN or THF.


Though what I find strange is that COR gets an A- parrying skill, if anything COR will be additional DD and enhancements, I don't think it's really able to handle direct confrontation like real pirates.

You kidding me? back before abyssea SAM was a great tank in the right hands, because they coverd what makes a tank a tank, damage dealing. to keep the mobs attention, while providing defense moves such as /nin for shadows or trusting third eye. it worked and i have seen it. obviously there are some things SAM can't stand agaisnt to long but most stuff they could.

The primary reason PLD failed at tanking is because while they have hate enimity generating abitlies they lacked damage, you NEED damage in order to keep hate on anything, and they simply failed in that department.

example of SE giving PLD atoment, but in later updates everything either took half atonment damage or resisted it comepletly, really dumb move they did but w/e

and we come to the reason nin are great tanks, they can dish out the damage now (mainly thanks to kannagis) and they can not get hit assuming the attack isn't aoe.

PLD didn't, doesn't, don't, shant, shornt(?) fail at tanking. Damage sources have never been able to go all out unless they want to eat dirt. pld/nin can cap hate very fast(not abyssea DD fast, but fast).

With the Voidwatch SE has planned, PLD will comfortably be going back to #1 tank because shadows mean squat and monsters are beefed up.

Taking no damage is better than taking less damage, i think it explains all.

I think he meant from a role-playing perspective, not from an efficiency perspective. And he's right, Ninjas are very weird tanks, they're even weird as melee, they're support to work covertly and stealthy, not provoking monsters and whatnot.

NIN and THF should switch play styles. In typical RPGs the THF(Rogue) is more dual wieldy/uses tools to enfeeble, avoid detection while the NIN or assassin is about sneak attacking and critical hits.

IIRC, SAM was meant to be a tank. NIN was meant to be a ranged attacker/enfeebler/DoT DD.

PLD is an amazing tank. Get an Almace (and Ochain if you haven't already), gear up PROPERLY for it, and voila, you have an outstanding tank that can deal damage. I wouldn't accept any other job to tank in Voidwatch. Abyssea there are almost endless options, a WHM could tank ffs because of their seemingly limitless MP pools. But then again, "Abyssea is too hard" amirite?

Back when the way of the game was a 6 person party with one tank and one healer and three to four DDs and hopefully a RDM for Dispel/Refresh or those Kuftal Crabs you were way too low to drag me to fight would take forever to kill, Samurai wasn't all that great of a tank because of how we used to fight IT++ mobs for high exp chains.

Once that changed over to T to VTs Samurai really came into the light with their ability to take hate, and hold it. Once SE gave them Seigan, that was it, they became one of the better tanks in those kinds of parties. NIN was still on top, and most jobs could do it with /NIN, but SAM could sub whatever they wanted and still tank through it with the Third Eye updates.

SAM could always tank. Just at first PLD and NIN were the best because of how we used to play the game.

EDIT

Which actually is how NIN came to be a tank. Once people realized how *good* Utsusemi was at mitigating damage, it simply became the way to tank. Before it used to be "maximize defense" because not even Shield blocking was reliable back in the day, it was only slightly better than relying on Parrying. SE didn't exactly embrace that idea at first, but over time they started accepting it and added gear to help the NIN with their new role. NIN became a tank just like SAM: because of our playstyle at the time. Which hasn't exactly changed all that much. :p

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Originally Posted by Kojo

IIRC, SAM was meant to be a tank. NIN was meant to be a ranged attacker/enfeebler/DoT DD.

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SE has disagreed with you about SAM on numerous occasions.

I can't think of anything PLD tanked better than SAM at 75 cap that wasn't already a zerg fight (and thus no tank)

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I can't think of anything PLD tanked better than SAM at 75 cap that wasn't already a zerg fight (and thus no tank)

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Plague Chigoe.

SAM was a tank before abyssea WTF?! Their defense is too weak.

I know that NIN was never intended to be a tank. I think SE just underestimated players willingness to spam Utsusemi, and since it's a reliable Blink ontop of an EVA heavy job...NIN tank. I seem to recall NIN actually being created as a sort of specialized puller.

It seems like SAM may have actually been made to either tank, or be able to fill a tank role if needed. They've said that it wasn't intended to be a tank, but the emphasis on parrying in some aspects of the job has always made people wonder.

A lot of jobs never become what SE had in mind. DRK and RDM are two other examples. I think part of this has to do with the game being designed initially around the idea that arbitrarily large groups of players would be fighting and questing to gain levels and fame- not forming strict rules and conventions or fighting IT monsters almost exclusively in order to gain levels. Some jobs benefit from this maximizing of opportunity, many have not.

I would say SAM is not made to be *the* tank, but is meant to be able to take some punishment if needed. A so called backup tank.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

SAM was a tank before abyssea WTF?! Their defense is too weak.

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sam was the de facto DD tank at 75

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

sam was the de facto DD tank at 75

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no. no. no.
While SAM was exceptional at tanking, it wasn't the "de facto" tank at 75.
SAMs wouldn't last 30 seconds vs PW or AV.
There are also several other mobs that SAMs have no chance at tanking.
try going and tanking some VNMs and Synergy mobs with SAM and let me know how long you last without 3-4 whms spaming cureV on you.

And when SAM did tank, it often relied on a co-tank. No SAM was solo tanking Tiamat, Khimaira, Cerberus, Saramaya.
They were often accompanied by another sam, or a thief, or a war/sam..

I'm fairly certain a Sam on my server did solo tank Sara, /war. Or mostly, idr and can't find the post but if he had a co tank it wasn't another sam/war/pld etc., I don't know if he had a thf or not.

even if for only 30 seconds, there are times when fighting Sara that you need breathing space as SAM.
Unless of course your friend did sara with an alliance @75, in which case anything could tank it.

Thread it was in got nuked so can't find it now anyway.

SAM could tank. The thing was most people that play SAM don't carry MDT, PDT sets so thats why people think they couldnt.

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Originally Posted by Cursed

no. no. no.
While SAM was exceptional at tanking, it wasn't the "de facto" tank at 75.
SAMs wouldn't last 30 seconds vs PW or AV.
There are also several other mobs that SAMs have no chance at tanking.
try going and tanking some VNMs and Synergy mobs with SAM and let me know how long you last without 3-4 whms spaming cureV on you.

And when SAM did tank, it often relied on a co-tank. No SAM was solo tanking Tiamat, Khimaira, Cerberus, Saramaya.
They were often accompanied by another sam, or a thief, or a war/sam..

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Is this sarcasm or something?

At 75, SAM DRK RDM PLD were the most popular tank classes. PLD and RDM were used for the big things but only when the group was unsure of the support lines capabilities or for the select mobs that weren't DD friendly like PW, Fomors etc.

You'd usually see those two classes brought out for the high stakes events like claiming a Tiamat or Khimaira just because it'd cost too much to lose claim simply because you didn't bring the safest tank classes. Some shells would use a DRK in these situations as well.

Wyrms are generally a bad example because they can fly. People were DD tanking Hydra, Khim and Cerb np @75 because those were battles where your stuns made or broke you anyway.

While PLD and RDM enjoyed success in the "safe" tier, the rest of the game enjoyed DD dominance with 2 DD being able to bounce hate and deal more damage. Even in some of the hardest content (MMM NMs, ZNMs, Einherjar), DD were much better than bringing a RDM or PLD.

Strange? Not really. Totally like the player base to take a master of stealth and make them the center of a mobs attention.

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Originally Posted by Cursed

no. no. no.
While SAM was exceptional at tanking, it wasn't the "de facto" tank at 75.
SAMs wouldn't last 30 seconds vs PW or AV.
There are also several other mobs that SAMs have no chance at tanking.
try going and tanking some VNMs and Synergy mobs with SAM and let me know how long you last without 3-4 whms spaming cureV on you.

And when SAM did tank, it often relied on a co-tank. No SAM was solo tanking Tiamat, Khimaira, Cerberus, Saramaya.
They were often accompanied by another sam, or a thief, or a war/sam..

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Fairly certain I solo tanked Khim, Cerb, Saramaya, Tyger, Ultima, etc on SAM without any real issues. Can solo tank Tia too, but there's no point to doing that because of back to back hate resets.

Edit: Like Sparthos said, MDT/PDT sets, barfire set for Tia+Cerb, and about 6-8 other competent players made these NMs easy and much faster to kill than using a PLD. This allowed you to camp multiple HNMs/kill at once, or kill the one you have faster to get to the next.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Fairly certain I solo tanked Khim, Cerb, Saramaya, Tyger, Ultima, etc on SAM without any real issues. Can solo tank Tia too, but there's no point to doing that because of back to back hate resets.

Edit: Like Sparthos said, MDT/PDT sets, barfire set for Tia+Cerb, and about 6-8 other competent players made these NMs easy and much faster to kill than using a PLD. This allowed you to camp multiple HNMs/kill at once, or kill the one you have faster to get to the next.

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what do you define as solo tanking?
you're the only melee on the mob?

and the roars are precisely the reason why any other melee besides drk or /drk would suck at solo tanking wyrms with hate resets that can fly.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I think he meant from a role-playing perspective, not from an efficiency perspective. And he's right, Ninjas are very weird tanks, they're even weird as melee, they're support to work covertly and stealthy, not provoking monsters and whatnot.

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Pretty much this.

Yes, just me on the mob, someone runs a THF mule out for TH at the end, Avatars/BLMs BRDs, RDM, WHM.

No one is going ot read this wall, but here it is anyways.

Solo tanking is unwise no matter how you do it. Which was the strength of using DD tanks. If hate got wierd, you still had only one person to concentrate cures on and two doing damage. Sam specifically had a lot of tools that aided in damage mitigation, as well as acquiring hate.

When you're a DD tank, you know that the monster is going to be on you and it's going to stay there. You know that no matter how hard you cure, that DD tank is only a weaponskill or a hit away from taking it back. All the While, you are a contributing force in killing the monster.

When you had a Paladin tank, you know your DD's were holding back, because as stated above, you know you're one hit or a weaponskill away from taking hate... That uncertainty made Paladins a liability. And I know, the obvious answer I alway hear to that is "Well you just had bad Paladins", and that's just fact, but the unfortunate thing is, it's not the specific Paladins, all paladins were just bad at holding hate. They had no tools, other than telling the party to slow damage. Now before your blood boils, please note that I'm speaking in the past tense, Paladins do pretty decently in voidwatch currently.

Ninja's currently are "Tanks out of Habit" it seems. Like, there's some of the old school folks that just can't let it go. It's annoying to me, mainly because SE's made it a point to give nearly every single monster in the game rediculous AoE moves now, to the point where even regular attacks make shadows, subbed or mained, absolutely useless. Ninja as a tank still works, but unless you're using a Kanagi and all but ignoring your shadows, you're a borderline liability now too.

With certain job combos, the only time I see DD tanks fail is when they sub ninja.
Take Monk for example. I had groups so hellbent on using ninja sub, not knowing that it was impeding the abilities that woudl mitigate the damage I take. Logic says: 'Well if you have shadows, you mitigate damage', and while true it goes against the tanking style of monk. With full counter gear, merits, atmas, etc etc etc, you could probably (technically) "evade" more than a thief, but WHILE evading, you're doing damage. You're pretty much guaranteed 5% evasion no matter what, and with counterstance up with atmas, and gear, you can counter probably close to 75%-80% of the hits. Those are hits where instead of taking damage, you instead deal damage. So you pop Aggressor, and Berserk, and Counterstance, since your defense is already nothing, and the less you evade, the more you counter, and voila! that 80% "Evasion" is translated directly into damage. Same dynamic works basically for Retaliation as well, give or take.

Mentioned earlier, "defense" of the job is practically useless... Sam was a good tank because instead of Defense, you have PDT and MDT gear. How much does a monster hit you for? if it's 600, I could easily shave 40% off that with PDT. But how much defense would I need to do what PDT does? On Monk, with counterstance and berserk up, I think my defense is like 18, maybe less. With those off, it's probably over 300. But the difference in damage i take is at best 10-20% more per hit, but I'm countering 50% more of them (doing damage in the process). So which would you choose? Longer fight where I take 10-20% less damage per hit? or a fight where 50% of the hits I take are blocked completely and turn to damage to the monster, thus shortening the overall fight time?

To the "Role-Playing" aspect brought up later between Ninja and Samurai...

You want to draw real life comparisons between the two arts as to which would tank better? Idk, how about we find the nearest dragon in real life and see who fairs better shall we? There was no "tanking" in real life for either art... Ninja assassinate, where Samurai Duel. Of the two they both play thier roles out in game arguably accurate. Ninjas deceive the monster, and debilitate it; where Samurai take it head on and overwhelm it with technique and skill.

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blah blah blah....You want to draw real life comparisons between the two arts as to which would tank better? Idk, how about we find the nearest dragon in real life and see who fairs better shall we? There was no "tanking" in real life for either art... Ninja assassinate, where Samurai Duel. Of the two they both play thier roles out in game arguably accurate. Ninjas deceive the monster, and debilitate it; where Samurai take it head on and overwhelm it with technique and skill.

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Oh you
8675309

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Originally Posted by Frost

You want to draw real life comparisons between the two arts as to which would tank better?

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Samurai are all about their honor and being able to take hits and never give up, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Also, doing whatever it takes to please their master/sensei which means going through a lot of more pain than one would think.

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Idk, how about we find the nearest dragon in real life and see who fairs better shall we?

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Comparing this as literal to a Dragon is absurd. And a lot of what ninjas come from are fiction as well which is already popular enough for anyone to realize that they aren't about taking hits. So if we want to get into fiction, than I don't see the issue with Dragoon.

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There was no "tanking" in real life for either art... Ninja assassinate, where Samurai Duel. Of the two they both play thier roles out in game arguably accurate. Ninjas deceive the monster, and debilitate it; where Samurai take it head on and overwhelm it with technique and skill.

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It makes less sense for a class which is based off real ninja or fiction ninja which have always been based on absolute lightest equipment and speed to being a shield is pretty weird.

Regardless of whatever we're discussing with Samurai, the main topic here is Ninja being a tank.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

The primary reason PLD failed at tanking is because while they have hate enimity generating abitlies they lacked damage, you NEED damage in order to keep hate on anything, and they simply failed in that department.

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This has always troubled me with the way SE handles tanking compared to other MMORPGs.
They should just give some passive job trait to PLD (and maybe to NINs under the effect of Yonin?) that gives them a different enmity generation ratio.
There is a formula in the game that estabilishes how "damage done" converts to "enmity". They should just reduce this conversion rate for ALL jobs cept PLD and maybe something else. This would make reaching the enmity cap harder (which is kinda easy with the damage players deal nowadays... the cap was created with level 75 in mind) and tanking more meaningful.
A tank should be able to tank because of his "tanking abilities" and his enmity, not because of the damage he deals (or not only for that).
Yet that's exactely what's been happening for the majority of NMs in FFXI.
Tanks can't generate enough enmity, DDs are much better with that. Many DDs have some interesting defensive abilities... and so DDs became tanks.
Everybody always accepted that as if it was something "normal", but to me it's always been pretty retarded and the result of some huge planning mistake at the source of it all.


Anyway, talking about pre-abyssea and even now with Voidwatch, PLD makes a difference on a lot of mobs that would be otherwise kinda hard to tank on NIN, SAM, MNK, WAR etc.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

SE has disagreed with you about SAM on numerous occasions.

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Yeah, their Artifact and Relic armor wasn't designed for tanking at all. It's not like it had any Enmity+ on it. No defensive combat skills like parry+ or evasion+ on it. It definitely didn't have "Occasionally boosts TP when damaged" on a piece. It's not even as if they have a defensive ability that can block physical attacks. They certainly don't have an A- defensive combat skill either. And a damage boosting ability that requires you to be facing the mob like a tank would to activate? Don't be silly.

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Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

I mean if you take a look at an actual Ninja they are quite the opposite and focus on the bodies weak points.

It'd make a lot more sense if Samurai was a tank class. I mean they are suited in armor.

Just thought it was rather odd.

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Woah, did somebody necro this thread from 2004 or something?