I haven't noticed if WHM frame gets Regen IV or not but should! another thing is why is RDM still untouched? logic would say it woudl have more spells now with the raising of cap. i didnt notice but i didnt see BLM gettin Drain II i would even go far say let it have Bio III.
Id love to see more attachments giving it spells like say a AM attachment or Refresh
Test Server - Feedback on PUP
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08-31-2011, 06:04 PMKrystenTest Server - Feedback on PUP
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08-31-2011, 06:34 PMbrayen
Why would we want refresh from our puppet >.>? pup shouldnt really be needing their mp pools for just about anything, as is they have no natural spells or mp. and AM is something we do NOT want, those spells are super long cast poor mp usage and are not effective in terms of dmg,
A new bio tier seems unlikely as rdm has to merit it.
Drain 2 would be nice but again unlikely, only DRK gets that and it is a blm frame not drk -
08-31-2011, 11:01 PMKrysten
thats the point of an attachment that way the players that want to use them can and those that complain dont have to.
and we Gert Aspir II so not getting Drain II is silly. -
08-31-2011, 11:07 PMKrysten
Obviously Refresh would be for ther auto not us DORK, you ever even played pup???
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09-01-2011, 01:25 AMSeha
I don't want those things.
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09-01-2011, 01:58 AMAlhanelemNo, i'ts not, Drain II is funcitonally different from Drain I. Aspir II is not, it's only more potent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krysten
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09-01-2011, 02:04 AMAlkalinehoe
How this thread went:
OP: We want these things!
PUPs: Uhhhh No we don't.
OP: Do you guys even play PUP?
Me: lol -
09-01-2011, 02:24 AMTelford
Stormwaker does need to get new spells, I'd be happy with just the tier IV nukes, and I wouldn't say no to higher tier enfeebles, I would leave cure V to soulsoother though. (Also harl needs some love)
Drain II would be terrible until they fix the AI and even then a waste of a cast most of the time, after two nukes and receiving moderate damage all spiritreaver would cast would be Aspir II > Drain II > Aspir > Drain > repeat, spell resistance be damned.
As for refresh, we have refresh attachments already, and if you're proposing a refresh spell that can be cast on others, how would you have the automaton determine who to cast on? Everyone? People with mp? one mp merit or a piece of gear/food would see the war getting refresh instead of a cure. Only mage jobs/sub jobs? Would it be smart enough not to refresh those with sublimation active? Soulsoother already wastes enough time casting unnecessary -na spells and enfeebles that don't land when it should be curing having it try to buff the party (in any way) is just one more way its universal recast can be wasted when you really need a cure. -
09-01-2011, 02:24 AMKojo
I like the people who "wish PUP got Asuran Fists."
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09-01-2011, 02:30 AMKorpg
Automations already got their own form of Refresh anyway....
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09-01-2011, 02:50 AMMalamasala
I think PUP is fine.
+1 positive post. -
09-01-2011, 03:30 AMKorpg
So Mala, your track record for Posts are now 966 Negative Posts and 1 Positive Post?
Still not that great. -
09-01-2011, 04:18 AMSaefinn
Refresh - PUP has already got. Just buy the attachment, it will give you a really nice MP/Tick if you keep on top of your Maneuvers. Marrotte Claws give you 1mp/tick refresh on your auto (I use them outside Aby) and inside Aby, if Dark Maneuvers aren't enough, there's MM atma. My MP inside or outside of Aby doesn't fall below 300. A refresh spell isn't necessary.
Drain II - DRK exclusive, it sounds like to me you want PUP to take the uniqueness away from certain jobs, a DRK is a heavy DD that comprimises its own defense and health to deal heavy damage, but also drains energy froms it foes to use it against them. Drain II is a great spell to accommodate the role - whilst in Abyssea Drain II doesn't stack with Cruor buffs, its still useful to a DRK. BLM and the BLM auto are black magic users and with no native means of curing themselves Drain is there to help survivability, but Drain II serves a different purpose. Aspir and Aspir II are basically the same spell, hence it's not DRK exclusive. But what we call the 'BLM' frame isn't strictly a Black Mage, it's just a nickname, so it doesn't need sets of spells that belong to BLM either - though it does get Fire V and Blizzard V, so you auto can already nuke like a boss with the added DD of the PUP - I don't think we can expect more of the BLM frame's nuking ability.
Personally I'd rather see the focus go into something useful - like fixing the AI of the automatons. -
09-01-2011, 06:44 AMKrysten
keeping dark up at all times isnt always effective or practical. yeah well Absorb INT is dark only too but pups have it :P
SMN have AM via Elementals so i dont buy the whole" it makes the job exclusive"
nothing given is nessary. skillup attachment, a cure potancy, these are not nessariy either nobody said they must have this... its a welcome touch at least in my eyes.
also im looking at going forward which means outside of abyssea. -
09-01-2011, 10:33 AMbrayenlol you arnt very smart then. if you do need refresh then put your refresh attachments...pro-tip they both work if you put them on at same time derp!Quote:
Originally Posted by Krysten
also deavtivate > activate can help with mp!
Adding to this, the puppet casts 1 spell every x seconds...and you want it casting refresh...lol derp derp more -
09-01-2011, 02:03 PMKrysten
moving on Valoredge still hasnt quite become "rivals a flesh and blood pld" just yet tho its getting alot better but without a good Hate attachment (strobe really is lacking imo) and without true heals still suffers but the shield stuff is really nice. pup still has alot suff it could add to
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09-01-2011, 10:41 PMKorpgI think the reason behind that is because Valoredge is more like a WAR automation than a PLD automation. The goal of the Valoredge is to do a lot of damage, not really tank. Just because it has a shield doesn't mean it is a tank (WARs can equip shields and can still do a lot of damage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Krysten
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09-01-2011, 10:51 PMDfoleyNo offense korpg but you have no clue about pup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
VE is 1/2 the DD of either the BLM or the RNG frame.
Please dont post outside of your area of experience.
VE has addition -pdt
Ve has shield block, shield mastery, has the most hp / natural defense. It is very clearly a tank. Its ws also do considerably less damage.
The only thing it lacks is proper preservation techniques and emnity control. -
09-01-2011, 11:09 PMZhronne
I don't really agree with the OP lol, I think I want none of those things.
In my very personal opinion, which probably isn't shared by many, what I want for PUP is:
- Stormwaker tweaking
Currently its spell list stops at 75. Stormweaver should be something in between Spiritreaver (specialized in black magic) and Soulsoother (specialized in white magic). Some may seem it would be useless, but when you're soloing you don't really need CureVI, for such situations having less healing but more enfeebling/damagespells would be awesome, and that's the role that Stormwaker would fulfill perfectly if only they kept on updating its spells list even after level 75. - Harlequin tweaking
Similar thing to above - Attachments reworking
This is coming. Probably won't make it in the sept patch, but should be in the nov/dec one. I hope they're gonna reduce the elemental value of attachments or, alternatively, increase the elemental cap of each frame/head. - Split of spell cooldowns
Maybe not necessary for Harlequin, but it's really necessary for Spiritreaver and Soulsoother. Having cooldowns split (similar to what they did on Summoner with BP: Ward and BP: Rage) would allow automatons to have separate counters for two different things. For example absorb/drain/aspir/whatever on one counter and elemental nukes on the other for Spiritreaver. And similarly, buffs/debuffs/nas on one counter for Soulsoother, and heals/regen on the other. Would really solve a lot of issues - AI Tweaking
After them refusing to even awknowledge the AI issues of Automatons, they're finally doin something like fixing the mobs on which Automaton doesn't cast anything. Still, the "cast on mobs with MP who do not cast spells" issues should be a fix for all automatons, and not something that's done through the equipping of Scanner... Hope they'll change their minds - WS filtering
Maybe it's just me, but I personally cannot stand the current "select WS by dominant maneuver" system. It creates a lot of issues if you want to keep up 2 manouvers of an element that procs a sucky WS. Or take mage frames, Knockout it's actually nice but with the maneuvers you usually keep up on such frames you just get the lame Magic Mortar. I really wish they could add an option in the Automaton equipment menu :(
Better ways to get attachments
Call me a whiney bitch, but I still think The Ashu Talif ones are retarded. If they don't want to make them obtainable through other means they should at least ease up the pre-requisites to enter The Ashu Talif. And judging by the (small) amount of people doing the GoV ones, I think the 4 ones added in the last patch too should get new ways to be obtained, kinda like you could obtain the previous 4 ones in different ways (IS, ENM, GoV).
- Stormwaker tweaking
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09-02-2011, 01:51 AMKorpgYou are right, I don't know much about PUP, considering that my PUP is my lowest leveled job (23).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfoley
I wouldn't consider Valoredge as a PLD because it doesn't have preservation "spells" that is also similar to a WAR. I'm not stating that Valoredge automation is the end-all DD automation, but more of a combination of tanking and DDing ability. But since everyone is placing frames into jobs, except for Valoredge, then why not Valoredge? Even you put frames into job-descriptions.
I'm just pointing out my personal observations as to what Valoredge's "job" would be, from an outside viewpoint. -
09-02-2011, 07:25 AMZemarin
welll its not... Sorry to Disagree with you but Valor Edge is nothing like Warrior at all. Valoredge is like a PLD and so is it's Dmg... the only thing that makes it not like a real pld is that it cant heal itself aside from that one Weak WS. Which imo was so stupid.. they should of Made Harrelquin not cast anything and the Paladin able to cure itself. but Leave it to SE to do stuff that makes no sense what so ever. SE if said that it wanted Valoredge to be able to compete with a Paladin.. Without Cure its never going to do that so they might as well has just made that lil shield another sword and colored it black and called it a ninja.
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09-02-2011, 07:56 AMMiera
All I ask for is an AI fix. Maybe Some Automatons could use a few spells such as Addle and or Haste Maybe even protect and Shell but really, I just want it to stop trying to kill me. :(
Me: CURE MEEEEEE
Serenade: What's that? I see you are poisoned, let me cast Poisona on you.
Me: Nooo, I'm dying maaan!
Serenade: You want a Blindna too? Okay.
Me: Uh.. Well a cure would be nice..
Serenade: Ok your health seems to be low. How about a cure.
Miera has been defeated. -
09-02-2011, 11:10 AMKrysten
oh Miera the jokes weve had on leviathan!!
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09-02-2011, 12:42 PMMiera
Indeed. I swear she's trolling me half the time. =\
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09-02-2011, 12:48 PMDeadvintaSpiritreaver gets Tier IV AND Tier V nukes. Happy now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Telford
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09-02-2011, 12:53 PMDeadvinta
My PUP is 90, and I will agree that Valoredge is more DD than tank, but the Melee prowess in general have been left behind. Also, AI problems are easily fixed with the Tactical Processor. Since they've explained what it actually does, I've equipped it and my Automaton appears to heal at much more appropriate times, use the right spells (Scanner also helps), it'll weaponskill sooner, etc. Just trust the Tactical Processor a bit.
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09-02-2011, 12:56 PMTelfordSorry wrote spiritreaver instead of stormwaker, so no I'm still not happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadvinta
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09-02-2011, 04:23 PMZhronneIt was surely shaped and meant to be the "PLD version" of our Automatons, but there have been a few times since PUP release where Valoredge was our best DD automaton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zemarin
The new attachments coming out are enforcing even more the PLD-likeness idea, but I think I can see the point of what Korpg was trying to say. Can't say I agree, but I can definitely understand where it's coming from. -
09-02-2011, 04:29 PMZhronneThat's what WE ALL want, but the thing is that creating a really SMART AI is very very difficult, it's especially more difficult when you have to improve an existing one instead than starting from scratch, when you have "PS2 limitations", when you're in an online environment such as an MMO with the additional variables of server-client latency and, last but not least, a very good AI would be particularly heavvy in terms of resources needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miera
So while asking for a really smart AI would be the best, that would also be a bit too utopistic and naive from our side to demand.
I still stand by my position that it's much more realistic and reasonable to ask for something different, like spells timers split (would almost completely solve the -na > Cure issue) and other small tweaks. -
09-02-2011, 07:39 PMSeha
Honestly I don't want the VE to waste dd potential on curing itself.
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09-02-2011, 08:01 PMZhronneAgreed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seha
What VE needed to be a better tank was better attachments specific for that purpose, and it seems we're gettin those ^^ -
09-04-2011, 05:05 PMAlhanelemUh, it is exactly like a warrior that is wearing a sword and shield. It borrows one ability of PLD; that's it. It has none of the other features of paladin like a mana pool and spells and the ability to tank. The recent WS, and use of DD attachments make its damage not nearly as bad as you imply it to be. I would still rank it 3rd, but it's not way below the others when set up properly. You use it when the other frames would die too easily.Quote:
welll its not... Sorry to Disagree with you but Valor Edge is nothing like Warrior at all.
In all actuality, harlequin is closer to paladin because it has a minor MP pool and learns spells more like a paladin and deals crappy damage like a paladin. -
09-04-2011, 08:11 PMTheytak
This thread isn't serious, right? The OP's just trolling us all... right?
...right? -
09-06-2011, 02:04 PMKrysten
SE themself said "we envision VE rivaling that of a flesh and blood PLD" so..... ya.
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09-06-2011, 02:30 PMAlhanelemunfortunately, they failed in that vision, so yeah, it's not anything like a pld. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Krysten