Ternary Flourish : post here if you think it needs to be buffed or removed

Hi,

Just tried the new JA we are supposed to get next update, Ternary Flourish, on the test server.

Like most DNCs, I'm definitely surprised that SE added that JA instead of something more useful.

Worse, this JA has, for now (no gear to enhance it, no reason to use it), no use at all.


Please post here to show SE that we want that JA either buffed or removed for something else, something we can actually use in events.


Thanks.

Agreed. This JA doesn't even seem like buffing it would improve it honestly. Only thing I could think of to fix it would be to make it Proc a good weakness.

Remove it. Long recast and not worth to stacking with ws not even Rudras. And it shares recast with Climactic.
so Dnc gets Stuff that Thf would like cause Thf gets nothing good anyway.

BUT Dnc doesnt need it *ever* so remove it. And give us something useful and more supportive. Pretty Please! =P

We could wait to see whatever "Enhancing" gear they add for it, but realistically this flourish has too long of a recast and too stiff competition to really be competitive. We can spend 3 FMs on a triple attack or 3 FMs on what amounts to 4 consecutive Sneak Attacks, two of which can be stacked with weaponskills to make a big skillchain if your timing is good. Not to mention that we can use the second JA almost twice as often.

Remove Trenary Flourish altogether. The ability is utterly worthless and has no use at all. I was thinking that IF you were a terpischore wielder it could be useful for Pyhrric Kleos, but with that 3 min recast its still useless plus climactic flourish now garantees a crit hit and has a much lower recast. SE come on!! Get with the defensive debuffs and stop jerking our chains with non-sense.

This ability just needs to be removed entirely and made into something else - possibly a support flourish or a new samba as many people have requested. It was simply not well thought out at all - and frankly you should *never* need gear to enhance an ability to make it not just good, but usable at all - I would rather spend time and effort to get gear that enhances our core abilities like samba and step potency, waltz cooldown and potency or something. Hell I personally would like to see a flourish III that works like climactic except it forces a parry for every move consumed. Could keep the animation just change the effect then.

This whole "ternary" situation is frustrating because it implies that the devs not only have just a paper understanding of the job, but that they don't respect the playerbase's ideas as potentially more valid as their own at times. Yes, I understand you can't always say "Wow what an awesome ability lets do everything these guys want!" and that the devs have their own plans on how they want to direct the job but come on - the slightest bit or research or even *testing* would have proven that after the climactic buff hardly anybody uses striking so why make striking +1? They just chose to continue on with something *they* thought was a good idea, not what we had been asking for for months. We're players who play in a real environment and each job has to work hard to get respect from the playerbase in order to be included in events - unlike them we don't play on a test server with the best gear automatically had and can't just say "Oi Tanaka-san, get the rest of the dev's lets go do PW today!" Why even have these forums if they're not going to be used as a way to compile our ideas, but for us to respond to what they say their plans are and to shoot us down when we try to give our opinion on it?

If they're going to treat us as testers then they have to come to the conclusion that as actual players, if pretty much all of us are crying foul on an ability you don't have to correct our way of thinking, having somebody come and tell us "Oh no, the way we actually meant that to be used was if you don't want to consume all of your moves and blah blah" - you need to change your plans. Otherwise next update we're gunna see quadratic flourish on a 3:30 timer...

In short, I don't think the dev team is the one who should be giving manifesto's - i think that the playerbase should be the ones compiling the direction they want the job to go and submitting it to them at this point - some of us have played our jobs since when they were released so by now *we* know how the job is supposed to be played in a real environment. I get that this idea would probably also cause alot of drama with conflicting ideas and things, like "dnc needs more throwing weapons!!" but in the end most players seem to know *how the job should be played and how to use it*.

Agreed! We should be getting that actually improves the job since this is the next to last level increase.

I quite honestly don't know what they were thinking.

Maybe it will at least have a cool animation.

Remove it and give DNC more supporting abilities or a better way to heal again. Bring back the level 75 DNC playstyle, they were INCREDIBLY useful and wanted back then. Now DNC is a crap job with no purpose, DD is not what DNC is meant to be.

I also 100% disagree with listening to the playerbase, just look at temper. They want RDM to be a melee job when it's clearly NOTHING like that at all, and SE needs to completely ignore melee whiners. They should look at how jobs are played in level90 enviroments by good players to see how the job is used and focus on making the job better at that. Right now DNC is only used to solo, but at 75 it was used as a healer and support DD, it needs to go back to the level 75 playstyle if they want this job to have ANY use at all.

I hate to be the one to point this out, but even if we were equally useful as a supporting job now as we were at 75, we still wouldn't end up doing things in a party. 6-man VT-IT monster meleeburns are a thing of the past. What are we going to do, team up with a bunch of friends to complete Ops faster in the CN Basement? Make people all melee the same monster in one-shotting-Abyssea? Try and melee Voidwatch NMs?

The closest we come to a situation where we could use our level 75 supporting role is against some new Dynamis NMs, and they just put out too much damage for our Waltzes to be anything more than a band-aid on a stab wound. You're better off using Saber Dance, letting the WHM cast Curaga IV, and trying to kill before the next 2-hour gets off.

Just because the content doesn't exist doesn't mean it's not a good role. The current way they're taking dancer actually gives it no purpose at ALL instead of some purpose.

A job that needs to be on a mob fulltime, with low hp and dual wielding daggers with low attk will NEVER be useful on VW/hnm/hard mobs, sorry :/ Never ever will it become useful on such things, not physically possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

Remove it and give DNC more supporting abilities or a better way to heal again. Bring back the level 75 DNC playstyle, they were INCREDIBLY useful and wanted back then. Now DNC is a crap job with no purpose, DD is not what DNC is meant to be.

I also 100% disagree with listening to the playerbase, just look at temper. They want RDM to be a melee job when it's clearly NOTHING like that at all, and SE needs to completely ignore melee whiners. They should look at how jobs are played in level90 enviroments by good players to see how the job is used and focus on making the job better at that. Right now DNC is only used to solo, but at 75 it was used as a healer and support DD, it needs to go back to the level 75 playstyle if they want this job to have ANY use at all.

---

I really don't understand what you're getting at. For starters how much has dancer "changed" functionally since the 75 cap? We still pretty much do the same things we've always done, but due to all the +crit gear and atma and climactic our damage is just better. I dunno about you, but it was at the 75 cap where I was constantly turned down for things because it was my only job - our desirability for low-man groups for seals/+2 items as a blink tank has gone up - we're still just as unnessecary in the eyes of elitists who want "the best healer" or "the best supporter" now as we were back then - nothing has changed. Other than exp parties there was never a big golden age for dancers when it came to big fights like you are referring to.

Dnc sure isn't a "crap job" its just the abyssea mentality has just furthered the already prevalent way of thinking in FFXI that puts many multi-purpose jobs lower on the desirability scale - in a game with 20 jobs, they can't all be the best but they need a niche, which is what many people have been asking for. Getting rid of Ternary in Lieu of another ability, a support ability that really makes a dancer desirable in dangerous fights, or even more defensive abilities to better bolster our solo ability - *anything* would be better than Ternary just because its an unnessecary damage flourish that's outclassed by abilities we already have.

What you're saying is that you don't want the dev team to listen to the playerbase because of... Temper? I'm pretty sure that that ability was a judgement call based on the devs paper understanding of how the job works, not because of a large outcry for more damage potential. Most of the red mages on the forums have been clamoring for more enfeebling power, with a much smaller portion asking for more of the "jack of all trades" aspect, so that was the dev's call. Also the spell sucks with a 5% activation rate, so there's that but I really have not seen people demanding they made RDM a "melee job". The point is, just like dnc they're a jack-of-all-trades job that wants some aspect of "mastery" and desirability.

As I said earlier of course you're going to get people who have ideas like "make ninja reliant on throwing attacks!" There are whole threads started with trains of thought along the lines of "We have it why arnt we *the best at this now obscure aspect of the job" but the majority of players will almost always want updates based on what would improve what the job really shines at with current content. The devs should be paying more attention to that, and stop thinking that they always know the best direction for the job. Taking the job in a new direction to open up their options is one thing, but it just depends on if it's needed or not. For a support/solo/self-sustaining job, our damage ability is quite good, (hell, look at all the drama on the thief boards) so there is no need to focus any more on the "Damage" aspect - atleast not with *another* flourish III when Climactic blows it away.

For us to be "an effective close range healer" on every mob (VW etc) without becoming overpowered, we'd need something like this : a JA that prevents our melee from feeding TP, but makes our melee very low as a trade (only hit for 1 damage ?), while making us able to survive AoEs (stance à la Fan Dance, but Damage Taken- and resist status ailments ?), and of course lowering all Waltz recast during that stance. And -maybe- a Shell V-ish Samba. Should be enough to replace a WHM main heal on most mobs, though not all mobs obviously.

And that ... will never happen ... so DNC main heal will never happen again (so long colibri PTs)

This may sound too overpowered, but what about a "Shadow Samba" which grants us an utsusemi like shadow when we hit the mob. It would bring us back to the front line and make us desirable. If not that, another option is a Shadow Flourish which converts our FM into shadows. The first ability is more support oriented while the second is more for a tank role. Both would also increase our solo capabilities and possibly allow us to explore alternate SJs since /NIN is a bit redundant on DNC.
The downside to these abilities (to balance them out) is that our damage output would decrease a bit without Haste Samba or Reverse Flourish. However, I could live with that, it would bring something new to the job and allow us to explore new ways to use DNC.

At one point in time I believe people were asking to make dnc a dd job.... but I think SE took that as just mainly dd and having no way to maintain ourselves as well as dd. Dont know why they would assume this but they did. Byrth has a point as much as I hate to admit. As we are currently dnc has no place in the majority of the main events going on. We may be able to deal impressive dmg now but our support role is seriously lacking. The amount we heal for in no way matters with the new nms. The dmg is too fast and large for it to even matter. Like he said we might as well just stay in saber mode. We need a means of reducing the dmg we take through defensive debuffs. Thats the key to our success, along with a way to augment our waltzs cast times and potencies, and maybe even a way to make them aoe.

Remove it...as it stands, I never use climactic flourish. Whenever I'm on dnc, I'm inevitably in a situation where I have to stick to my support stuff, like haste samba, waltzes, steps, w/e to keep myself alive, and I don't even get a chance to think about throwing in a climactic flourish....give us something to help out that would be useful, not another climactic flourish!

Replace it with a Category 3, 2 FM, 30 second cooldown Flourish that resets Waltz cooldowns, imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scaevola

Replace it with a Category 3, 2 FM, 30 second cooldown Flourish that resets Waltz cooldowns, imo.

---

that sounds like it might be a good idea. sort of a compromise to splitting timers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bubeeky

Remove it...as it stands, I never use climactic flourish. Whenever I'm on dnc, I'm inevitably in a situation where I have to stick to my support stuff, like haste samba, waltzes, steps, w/e to keep myself alive, and I don't even get a chance to think about throwing in a climactic flourish....give us something to help out that would be useful, not another climactic flourish!

---

Nearly every situation you're in you're bleeding all over the floor? That can't be right...

maybe he solos a lot? Dnc is a pretty hard sell on anything that can be !!! proced.

DNC has no use in any event or anything in the game currently. It's the most useless job in the game.

Uhm... Shiyo can you read? This isn't a thread about the suposed usefulness of dnc, which you have made it clear multiple times that your opinion is "it's worthless!" - abit hillarious coming from a career red mage given the current game situation but I digress.

This thread is actually about an ability we would like changed, which had you read the title, you would have saved yourself the embarrassment of looking like a drunk straggler stumbling into a bar and screaming that the town's favorite sports team sucks.

Seriously, this was like your 4th post that had nothing to do with the topic and was just "I hate dnc" If you have any actual contructive feedback about ternary flourish or how it could be fixed/replaced by all means, but otherwise go troll some other job forum.

I did give feedback in my first post........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

Remove it and give DNC more supporting abilities or a better way to heal again. Bring back the level 75 DNC playstyle, they were INCREDIBLY useful and wanted back then. Now DNC is a crap job with no purpose, DD is not what DNC is meant to be.

I also 100% disagree with listening to the playerbase, just look at temper. They want RDM to be a melee job when it's clearly NOTHING like that at all, and SE needs to completely ignore melee whiners. They should look at how jobs are played in level90 enviroments by good players to see how the job is used and focus on making the job better at that. Right now DNC is only used to solo, but at 75 it was used as a healer and support DD, it needs to go back to the level 75 playstyle if they want this job to have ANY use at all.

---

That's not feedback, that's you subjecting people to your idea of what DNC should be then insulting the job for being different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

DNC has no use in any event or anything in the game currently. It's the most useless job in the game.

---

I Like that comment. EVER did Dynamis with a DNC? Is atm the best JA Proc there is.

On the Other hand RDM, SMN and PLD have currently no use at all.

Also good geard Dancers are among the lines of THF ~ DD Wise probably even better...

Problem is the majority of the DNC's are Forced into that DD (or Tank) Role which is totally undesireable for them.

The Flourish we are getting is a Prime example of how misunderstood DNC is since everyone and their Mom Leeches it up in Abyssea and plays DD Style.

Thats not the ppl that matter.

Most of the Dancers liked to play a Supportive, Healing and occ. WSing Role, SE doesn't get it. After Climactic and Strikeing our DD capabilitys are more then buffed.

And what go we get? Yet another DD Type Flourish which sucks on Top. (Climactic is better)

Seriously, is there anyone that plays Dnc seriously that wants to play DD & Tank ONLY ?

I second this comment lol. That is the joy of the job, I love healing supporting and dding all at the same time. If your not like that dont be a dancer. Thats what we are suppose to do, Its how we have always been in the past. Been there to support the party, devestate the mob with crippling afflictions and deal damage, whether it be directly or indirect, and look gorgeous doing it. Dancer Forever!!

PLD has it's spot secured in void watch, DD/DNC or THF/DNC is a better proccer than DNC by far in dynamis. SMN and RDM are both amazing for voidwatch as well, smn being one of the best voidwatch jobs in the game.

Quote:

---

Most of the Dancers liked to play a Supportive, Healing and occ. WSing Role, SE doesn't get it. After Climactic and Strikeing our DD capabilitys are more then buffed.

---

This is why the new direction SE is taking DNC makes less sense than temper existing.

Ok, on that atleast I can agree upon.

Judging from all this, in an ideal world, ternary should be changed to:

a) A defensive ability to compensate for the fact that we are expected to stay front line the whole time to do anything. Even running in to step the mob is dangerous with a lot of high end boss monster moves, many of which fan dance does nothing to protect you from (though maybe this could be alleviated if fan dance is changed to -damage taken instead of just physical and gains some form of enfeebling resistance/nullification property).

Maybe they could add defense in the form of enfeebling flourishes like something that acts like a CCB Polymer Pump for abit - obviosuly it would need to be on a really long (10 min+) cooldown if it lasted say, 2-3 mins so as not to make subtle blow gear and inhibit tp spells and abilities useless but still, it would give us a niche of a disabler in almost any fight.

or B) Supportive abilities that contribute something unique in big fights, maybe some auto-sustaining buffs that slowly drain TP (thus giving you more of a reason to use saber dance i suppose), or maybe something that reduces the cooldown of waltzes based on the number of hits you give (Like if any of you have played League of Legends, Taric the Gemknight's heal has a long cooldown that gets lower by afew seconds each time he hits an enemy, thus making it more practical to be front-line) or something. But ternary has to go. There's just no way around it devs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

This is why the new direction SE is taking DNC makes less sense than temper existing.

---

DNC is a healing/support job that fuels its healing and support by doing melee damage. Reasonable minds can disagree about whether focus ought to be on the melee damage (those who advocate playing DNC as a niche soloer/tank might say this) or the healing/support, but to say that DNC isn't a DD is just crazytalk. It's like saying PUP isn't a DD since the things that set PUP apart from other melee DDs don't really involve doing melee damage.

I forget who it was specifically who said this, but whoever it was was spot on when he said that it's ridiculous if DNCs complain about being unable to DD as well as a WAR, heal as well as a WHM, tank as well as a NIN, or support as well as a BRD and ignore the fact that they can do all four better than most.

I can't heal as well as a White Mage, but as long as White Mages don't become as evasive as Ninjas and have all their Cures replaced with Drains you can cast to heal other people, I'm okay with that. Dancer is fine.

EDIT: I still think that if a dancer is really serious about playing a support role, he or she should be asking for an enmity dump, because the real limiting factor on support DNC is that doing your job well means you are tanking, period, and even split Waltz timers wouldn't change this.

Concealing Flourish
1-5 FMs
2 minute cooldown
Reduces enmity on current target by 20/40/60/80/99%

Not that it has anything to do with the fact that this job ability sucks, but....

Maybe a Defender like stance that lowers Damage output, emnity and Defense while shortening Waltz timers and boosting TP gain would be a good move.

That would keep dancer from being able to solo everything in the game, but still make it more viable for support.

A move that makes Healing waltz affect all party members in range would be cool too. maybe a 2-3 minute timer?

I personally dont want to see my dnc turned into a melee whm. Yea... we shouldnt be able to do things as good as the other jobs like heal like whm, dd like war, or I guess even evade like ninja(choked on these words btw) but that doesnt mean we should be left without a niche over those jobs. I mean sch can play both whm and blm almost perfectly minus a few spells. Why cant dancer get aoe heals(that matter) and defensive debuffs(paralyze and such) to increase our pts survivability. Seems a little un-fair to me.

I was just suggesting another stance. We have Saber Dance for melee. Fan Dance for Tanking. Why not a support stance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose

I personally dont want to see my dnc turned into a melee whm. Yea... we shouldnt be able to do things as good as the other jobs like heal like whm, dd like war, or I guess even evade like ninja(choked on these words btw) but that doesnt mean we should be left without a niche over those jobs. I mean sch can play both whm and blm almost perfectly minus a few spells. Why cant dancer get aoe heals(that matter) and defensive debuffs(paralyze and such) to increase our pts survivability. Seems a little un-fair to me.

---

Because we have something better than that for improving party survivability, called "the highest threat generation in the game coupled with the second highest evasion, the best passive -PDT ability, and uninteruptable healing". Gosh, it's almost like the first Flourish we get should be a provoke or something!



We DO have a niche. We are the best solo job in the game by a mile. If you want to be a ringer in groups there are a dozen other jobs you can play to get you there. Before Abyssea, there may have been some traction to the idea that every job should viable in every event*, but it's moot now since you can level and gear a new job for a particular need in a week or two and that is exactly how it should be in a game with a job system like FFXI's.



*although I still think people only thought certain jobs weren't viable in certain events in an attempt to convince themselves FFXI was harder than it actually was but DOUBLEYEW SLASH EE

Ok some of what you are saying is true, we are among the best solo jobs in the game. However, its not the older mobs im talking about. The vast majority of the newer mobs hold not only potent paralysis moves with high dmg but also may have amnesia moves with high dmg making it much much harder for us to solo anything if they keep on this track. I dont mind soloing at all. Im not trying to say i dont like to, but what im saying is with this trend, its unfair to outcast a job because it can't keep up with the incoming dmg. Which is why I say giving us defensive debuffs and strong aoe cures would help when we are forced to have a pt. Make it to where if we wanted to play in a pt we would be more than a viable option to use, reason being why our sambas effect not only us but our pt members as well. In the stage we are in now soloing may go by the wayside since 95-99 are suppose to be the epic levels. Its how it has been for past FF anyway.

Also regarding abyssea. Our journeys in abyssea are coming to a end im afraid so a lot of the buffs we had in there no longer apply. I cant speak for the new voidwatch atma stuff since I havent experienced the atmas yet but as far as the stat boost and such those are gone and I would expect them to stay gone. So to base anything dnc can do, on stuff in abyssea is not really a correct way to look at things. Abyssea has truely spoiled players I feel. Pull them out of abyssea and they forget completely how to play with much lower hp and stats.

There is a good chance that Dancer can't solo a lot of the good end game gear coming up, so enhancements to party play are probably of the utmost importance. We need to be a great supporter, or a great DD or a great Healer, or we won't be coming Dancer to any of those events. The move that is the actual topic of this thread doesn't contribute to any of those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There is a good chance that Dancer can't solo a lot of the good end game gear coming up, so enhancements to party play are probably of the utmost importance. We need to be a great supporter, or a great DD or a great Healer, or we won't be coming Dancer to any of those events. The move that is the actual topic of this thread doesn't contribute to any of those.

---

And my point is that if you come as a different job for those events, that isn't a bad thing and is exactly how this game ought to work. If there were 5 different endgame events and the min/maxer in you told you to play a different job for each of them, that would actually be perfect as far as I'm concerned. You'd still be soloing on your DNC.

I think the real problem is that one could make a pretty strong case for WHM being the most overpowered healer in the history of MMORPGs, if not the most overpowered class period (taken in comparison with the other classes that can fill its role and the challenge of the content it faces), and so what strengths and niches an unorthodox job like DNC could conceivably provide are rendered pointless by WHM just being miles ahead in every way. You'll always take a WHM to every event, and every healer would be better off if they were a WHM. It's not even comparable to, say, "WAR is the best DD", because it's not like the other healer choices provide different benefits and skillsets that taken as a whole are less effective than WHM, as is the case with WARs and other DDs. The other healers do the exact same stuff, only worse. WHM healing needs a big nerf before DNC healing needs a buff, but this is neither here nor there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There is a good chance that Dancer can't solo a lot of the good end game gear coming up, so enhancements to party play are probably of the utmost importance. We need to be a great supporter, or a great DD or a great Healer, or we won't be coming Dancer to any of those events. The move that is the actual topic of this thread doesn't contribute to any of those.

---

Dancer will remain the most effective choice for soloing everything that can be soloed and will remain the go-to job for farming yourself a EAF+1/semi-+2 set and WoE weapon to start out on whatever job you might like to play. 95 cap and (dare I hope) the roadmap's claim that new NPC areas meaning NPCs in Abyssea makes me think soloing 85 Empyreans would actually be practical; we might not have the best Red !! options but we really are the best claiming job in the game right now.

If you want healing, play WHM. If you want support, play BRD. If you want damage, play WAR. Use DNC to gear all three of them. From there, go ahead and get the new gear, but given that I have seen exactly one piece of Voidwatch gear being worn among the people I've /checked on Cerberus since May and that this is, after all, still the same FFXI where I wore a Haubergeon for 3 years, I'll believe EAF+2 will stop being relevant when I see it.



But yeah, Ternary Flourish is a joke, and I've offered two alternate flourish suggestions that have nothing to do with my personal belief that DNC is fine.

So once I solo +2 all my gear and finish Twashtar I just retire dancer and play appropriate jobs? Never mind. That wasn't even what I was trying to say. What I was saying is that the New move that this thread is based on is crap, and I would suggest something different. Even if you think that dancer is just for solo and other more specialized jobs should be brought to events, this move still sucks. It really has no benefits. Just the 1-2 second delay from using it would probably negate all the gain from the extra hits. It really is just a way to waste some TP.

Well, in my defense, I'm mostly responding to Shiyo and DeathRose saying DNC sucks because it doesn't particularly excel exactly the way they wish it would. You'll get no argument from me if all you're saying is that Ternary Flourish is pointless.

It's probably just a philosophical difference and if so I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree, but I still say that the whole idea of "maining" a job and playing it in every situation sells short what continues to set FFXI apart from its competition, misses the whole point of Abyssea, and maybe even misses what set Final Fantasy apart from its competition in general, at least in terms of gameplay. But hey, reasonable minds can disagree.

By no means at all am I saying dnc sucks. In fact! Its most definitely my pride and joy, which is why I want to see it excel. Now basically what im say is. Why not give ppl the option of playing that job and still be as capable as if they were to come said ideal job? I understand that in some cases a change of job is in order but like in most other ff games if not all of them there were always ways of making a strong combo with said desireable job, if you catch what im saying. Whm will never, NEVER be replaced as a healer. I mean whm has always been a main healer and its only right that a whm more than likely if not always be in need. I think whm should be left as it is and just enhance other jobs to do better, but still not as good as whm. I may be contridicting myself some where here, but anyway my bottom line is make dancer a stronger option in party support and defensive debuff to make us a viable option to bring. I dont want to see all my blood, sweat, and tears just fade away before my eyes because of what seems to be the only way of doing things.