•Unbridled Knowledge (Lv. 99) RDM

•Unbridled Knowledge (Lv. 99)
Allows access to additional rdm magic spells.
~the same, but with other name.

For spell maybe stoneskin2,blink2,cure5,doom

/sigh

I just don't know why... this would be a rip off from BLU.

It's not like the devs are totally causing Blus to rip off everyone else atm...

If you see that as a ripoff of blu, then blu ripped it off of SCH first.

No.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

/sigh

I just don't know why... this would be a rip off from BLU.

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And? BLU has been ripping of other jobs since it's introduction...

Personally those spells are not over-powered so it makes no sense to lock them to a JA to use, just add them naturally to RDM. If anything I'd lock WHM/BLM exclusive spells to it maybe tier V nukes, and tier V cures, that way it can't take over other roles but can be useful should the need arise.

lol BLU ripping off of other jobs, thats hilarious, pretty sure we are the ones that have mob exclusives for a while, so we rip off of mobs, and JAs, ya sure we do, but we sacrifice spells to receive them.

dual wield
haste
refresh
double attack
blink
just because the animation looks different and the spells are called something else, or you get them as a job trait due to equipping certain spells together doesn't mean they are original blue abilities/spells.

Having said that, unbridled knowledge = no. it's too scholarish.
RDM should have gotten those spells by now anyways. its ridiculous it hasn't.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

lol BLU ripping off of other jobs, thats hilarious, pretty sure we are the ones that have mob exclusives for a while, so we rip off of mobs, and JAs, ya sure we do, but we sacrifice spells to receive them.

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Spells that rip of other jobs are still a rip off.

Once again I mention spells/JA's BLU's on this very forum want:

A reraise spell - Doesn't exist in enemy spell form
Phalanx - RDM spell
BLU version of Composure - RDM Ability
Shell/Protect
A raise spell

and so on.

Anyone getting doom before DRK is a crock of crap.
Oh excuse me, is.

Especially RDM. Derp.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Anyone getting doom before DRK is a crock of crap.
Oh excuse me, is.

Especially RDM. Derp.

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Death is DRK's spell.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Anyone getting doom before DRK is a crock of crap.
Oh excuse me, is.

Especially RDM. Derp.

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You mean like Blue Mage is?

Meh BLUs that ask for Composure are stupid and probably burned the job up through abyssea, and most likely area bunch of lazys. BLU doesn't need Composure, BLU COULD use Phalanx, and I don't think thats much to ask since well... SMN gets it as well as PLD, so saying thats a RDM exclusive makes me lol a lil (if you were trying to say it was originally RDM, then yes I would agree, but is it now... no) yet we also have Saline coat which reduces magical damage, cocoon which increases phsycal def to 50% and Magic barrier which is a magical stoneskin of sorts, so I would say that it would be nice to have a phalanx like spell, but not entirely necissary. Reraise, would be nice, we are a mage class of sorts, and I don't think its entirely out of the question since we are not exactly asking for a Reraise IV or some shit. Also saying that a mob doesn't use reraise, doesn't mean a whole lot, did Battery Charge refresh MP for pots? Did Reaving Wind only whipe TP? No. These were spells that were modified for the job class, and I don't think it would be entirely out of the question to grant another such spell.

Shell and protect, again spells that are not exactly ridiculously out of the realms of a MAGE hybrid class much as RDMs, except we differ by EXCELLING in the front line. To say that we are a class that should be dependent on other mage jobs is kind of out of the question seeing as all the various buffs, debuffs, dd and nuke spells we recieve. I would hardly think a Tier III, IV Protect and shell spell (Please look up Crystalline Cocoon if you think such a mob ability could not exist for BLUs to obtain such a buffing spell) would break the game, and if it did, then I would hardly think its BLU that needs to be gimped as much as every other job would need to get boosted, or user error to a point in which they should play another class.

For the traits, using that as an argument as "ripping off" is silly. So your telling me everytime I /WAR and get double attack my PLD is ripping off double attack? or everytime my SCH/RDM uses blink I'm just a mock of RDM? No, nobody says that, and if you want to say "well thats subs!" Well consider the fact that we have to be limited by Blue Magic points, as well as have to sift out what spells we desire as well as JAs and stats in order to actually do what we do. If such limitations were not placed on the job I would say then that yes the job is a rip off and broken. Yet it is extremely limited by only receiving Tier 1 Traits. I hardly think that qualifies. Also our spells while they are similar to your own, they also are different. Such as our blink is 7 shadows while yours is less for example, however it costs more and the recast is more. BLU is not meant to be purely original in the sense of its tools, rather in the application of spells and its play style. Of course the spells are not original, they come from mobs, and mobs that are based on other jobs. Do you say that a SCH or RDM is ripping off a BLM by using Tier IV nukes? No, you just accept that it is another class that can do a similar job, but differently.

And DRK got a Scythe that gives death, so I think you are fine, granted its arguably better or worse then Mortal Ray since ours is a 60 second counter that requires us within range, and has low accuracy of landing. And who still plays DRK anyway? I'm pretty sure that job has all be extinct as far as Abyssea content is concerned.

Tbh you can't really get anything in this game now that does not step on some jobs toes.

To be fair people should not be comparing RDM to BLU in terms of hybrid class. There are so many things that set BLU apart mostly due to the way it was designed. Besides the fact that BLU's magic is limited to the amount of ability points it can fit in, most spells have long cast/recast timers, most of it's traits are dependent on the combination of spells used, and many of a BLU's spells were specifically designed and tied into it's skill with whatever type of weapon equipped, this allows BLU to be flexible but at the same time it's very limited where it cannot access all of it's spells at any given time.

RDM does not have any of this and their skills are all treated separately with no real interaction with each other when being cast, the upside is we can access all our spells at any given time.

(Little behind on the topic so I thought id just save space instead of double posting)

most other jobs(most whm) say cure5 or other spells too good for rdm,

but this spells use with a 5 min. JA- is this not ok?
suggestion from me. Its a way for better spells and not overp. rdm

And idk why a blu say that is a rip off blu. Can have only blu good updates?

I think this is a silly idea. I would not enjoy parts of our spellbook being tied to a JA.

I can't even make a lame joke about how poor an idea this is.

This is sooo lame. This reminds me of the whole "stance" suggestions in wiki. Basically when RDM, nin and WHM got theirs suddenly everyone wanted a "stance". Now we have the new "extra knowledge/ability/spells" when a 2 hours is used, now people want it too.

Just simply give RDM's those tier 2 or 3 spells and leave it at that. I'd also would like them to be solo casted, rather than target just to screw over parties that force RDM's into being haste/refresh bots.

Honestly being a SCH, I think RDM and SCH should receive Cure V, since in this day and age, IV just doesn't compete, and the amount of hate it generates is certainly limiting to the curing class, except WHM. While many WHMs would say that giving us a Cure V would BREAK it, I disagree. WHMs are exceptional healers for far more reason other then the fact that they have Cure V. BLU is a job in which its mechanic is that the spells are limited. SE took suggestions of a JA that releases all spells, and limited it (because such an idea as I was saying in the BLU forum, would be stupid, and broken, and disobey the entire mechanic that is BLU) to HNM spells. No other job (other then SCH) works like this where a JA is required in order to obtain the use of additional spells. Should RDM get better buff spells? Yes I strongly agree, because in my eyes, the class is a debuffer and a buffer, so what better idea then to give them better bufffing spells. It shouldn't be attached to some JA, because that is a mechanic that belongs to hybrid jobs such as BLU and SCH. It should be granted natively, or hell maybe even the extended merits they have been talking about.

And to nutshell why its a rip off. You didn't even bother to change the name of the JA from the one that will be given to BLU, and your mechanic steals from SCH and BLU like mechanics. Its much like when people were trying to get RDM to be a DD, they were supporting the idea of endebuff spells that the more you hit the more % a debuff was enhanced. Which this basically straight up takes away from a DNC, and even exceeds the class in which such a mechanic should ACTUALLY belong to. I'm more then behind the idea of RDM getting better buffs, just keep it in the original mechanic that it is. Don't ask for a JA, make them native, because honestly, the spells you are asking for as a Tier II, really are not a stretch of the imagination when you think about us coming to level 99. (Although to be frank, good luck with getting Doom, we are already pissing off BLMs and DRKs by having a spell that inflicts it as BLUs.)

So, why is it okay for RDM to "steal" from WHM (Cure V) but not BLU, SCH, or DNC?

Personally, I don't like this idea (namely that it will most likely include restrictive timers and too broad a spell library), but the flimsy, opinionated retorts against pretty much everything suggested on this board because "It's not RDM!" are getting stale, especially from those who don't have the job leveled, geared, and appreciable firsthand experience in it.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

So, why is it okay for RDM to "steal" from WHM (Cure V) but not BLU, SCH, or DNC?

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Because it's the logical progression of a line of spells we acquire natively? Seriously, where was all the kicking and screaming when we got Shell V? Oh that's right, there was none even though we basically "stole" one of White Mage's best merits.

Yay for double standards.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Because it's the logical progression of a line of spells we acquire natively? Seriously, where was all the kicking and screaming when we got Shell V? Oh that's right, there was none even though we basically "stole" one of White Mage's best merits.

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I could have sworn White Mage got Shellra V from merits. And that it was more potent than our rinky-dink single target spell could ever hope to be.

That's beside the point though, since the "double standard" is what Scuro's being called out on in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

You mean like Blue Mage is?

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"Oh excuse me, is."

Present tense.

As in happened already.

/sadface.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

I could have sworn White Mage got Shellra V from merits. And that it was more potent than our rinky-dink single target spell could ever hope to be.

That's beside the point though, since the "double standard" is what Scuro's being called out on in the first place.

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Pretty much. And as noted of our Shell V, in comparison, it's hardly the game changer, perhaps ender for party-centric alternative roles, that Cure V would be.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Pretty much. And as noted of our Shell V, in comparison, it's hardly the game changer, perhaps ender for party-centric alternative roles, that Cure V would be.

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Why do people seem to think RDM/SCH getting what would be a gimped Cure V is game changing... Maybe for SCH with it's 60% potency it may be but not for RDM who for so long couldn't even cap 50% cure potency.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Because it's the logical progression of a line of spells we acquire natively? Seriously, where was all the kicking and screaming when we got Shell V? Oh that's right, there was none even though we basically "stole" one of White Mage's best merits.

Yay for double standards.

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Exactly, and that answers your question Seriah which should of been completely obvious. You get a series of cures, so it only makes sense. YOu don't need to play or appreciate RDM at all to know that it is a job that can cure lol. my RDM is 49, but I personally find it as of now, worthless, and I hate the class (yet I do appreciate those that play the job as a buffer and debuffer and do it damn fine). There is nothing right now that any other class can not do better then a RDM, except debuffing. Yet in Abyssea with mobs that are resistant to certain debuffs, just no point.

I bare no double standards, I'm a fair man, if this JA went through, congrats, it would be a shit idea for a RDM anyway since these spells that were named should of been given at 99 rather then have a JA to use em. I just believe that certain things should go to those jobs only, such as jobs with unique mechanics such as DNC, BLU, and SCH. They should be not given to other jobs. Yet RDM, WHM, SCH have all things in common, therefore much of their spell list should be SIMILAR. I mean it really should go with out saying that the next step for most of those mage classes is the next tier of a spell. In Abyssea Cure IV doesn't cut it, and I'm sorry, people talk about SCH's don't need it because of rapture, and for most cases this is true, but when you are booming off strats like they are going out of style, that rapture is a bit harder to do. My standards are not double, they are pretty blatantly fair and understandable. Idk if you think a Cure V is a stretch of the imagination for classes that CURE, well then I would strongly suggest you play the class over, unless you are a solo'n DD RDM, well then I guess keep doin what you're doin....

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Why do people seem to think RDM/SCH getting what would be a gimped Cure V is game changing... Maybe for SCH with it's 60% potency it may be but not for RDM who for so long couldn't even cap 50% cure potency.

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I'm going with this. Red Mage would not and could not replace White Mage against challenging monsters (also, the two work great together in these situations), and against anything else you'd have enough MP to do other stuff in addition to casting Cure spells. In fact, I suspect most groups would prefer if you did that other stuff to make up for the loss of a White Mage's amazing defensive abilities. I see it as win/win.

Of course there are exceptions like duoing in dynamis, but I guess casting Stone instead of stepping up to Dia II for magic procs could be considered a form of variety.

If BLU has stolen everything from other jobs, would you like to come up with new and unique things for every spell that BLU has that isn't related to any other spell in the game?

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Originally Posted by Scuro

Exactly, and that answers your question Seriah which should of been completely obvious. You get a series of cures, so it only makes sense. YOu don't need to play or appreciate RDM at all to know that it is a job that can cure lol. my RDM is 49, but I personally find it as of now, worthless, and I hate the class (yet I do appreciate those that play the job as a buffer and debuffer and do it damn fine). There is nothing right now that any other class can not do better then a RDM, except debuffing. Yet in Abyssea with mobs that are resistant to certain debuffs, just no point.

I bare no double standards, I'm a fair man, if this JA went through, congrats, it would be a shit idea for a RDM anyway since these spells that were named should of been given at 99 rather then have a JA to use em. I just believe that certain things should go to those jobs only, such as jobs with unique mechanics such as DNC, BLU, and SCH. They should be not given to other jobs. Yet RDM, WHM, SCH have all things in common, therefore much of their spell list should be SIMILAR. I mean it really should go with out saying that the next step for most of those mage classes is the next tier of a spell. In Abyssea Cure IV doesn't cut it, and I'm sorry, people talk about SCH's don't need it because of rapture, and for most cases this is true, but when you are booming off strats like they are going out of style, that rapture is a bit harder to do. My standards are not double, they are pretty blatantly fair and understandable. Idk if you think a Cure V is a stretch of the imagination for classes that CURE, well then I would strongly suggest you play the class over, unless you are a solo'n DD RDM, well then I guess keep doin what you're doin....

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Your RDM is only 49 and you profess to hating the job. Why do you keep posting in RDM forums?

Because someone has to keep the RDMs in check, and some body has to wade through all the BS and whining to know what is going on in other classes. And tbh, I laugh when RDMs talk about how other classes are complaining, but RDMs are the worst, and have been for YEARS, I would even argue since the dawn of FFXI lol. Contrary to what others think, I do honestly believe that the opinions shared on this forum matter, and that they do read and listen to what we say or discuss. And if such idiocy is mainstreamed and eventually becomes a fact of the game, I can only blame myself and others that didn't bother to step in and place the boot of reason on the ass of a RDM's idea. I do not shun all ideas, and I usually add what should be the focus, and if I do agree with an idea, I will either accept it outright or say means in which it should be adjusted.

And honestly, it doesn't take a level 90 RDM to figure out what the job does, thats like saying the complexity that is WHM.... What a joke, I mean sure you should regulate your hate and such with cures, yet any PLD can understand that since they are on the opposite side of the spectrum. Simple understandings of the mechanics/spells/tools give you a very clear understanding of the job. It really doesn't take a genius to play RDM, it just takes good distribution of buffs, and a good eye on timers, as well as health bars, and decent debuff gear, INT gear, and MND gear to play the job. If a 90 is what warrants a discuss on such a simplistic job, hell give me a weekend and I'll have the job, which is basically deemed worthless in terms of having SCH or WHM leveled, high enough so that I can still post my exact opinions in such threads.

If you want complexities, play PUP or BLU, now that takes some know how, when it comes to RDM, I refresh, I haste, I cure, I regen if possible, I paralyze (II), I slow, and I blind if possible (oh and maybe pop of a nuke or two just to feel like I'm contributing other then sitting there with my thumb up my arse). I basically just nutshelled the role of a RDM, at least in Abyssea. And for those that say "Well thats Abyssea!", of course, because thats the only content that people are playing, and until that becomes obsolete, there is no point in discussing other content that I can practically solo on my 90 BLU or low man.

It's always been my thought that it was because of RDM complaining that eventually formed BLU, DNC, and SCH. Physical attack spells? TP to do things other than ws, maybe cure? Shift more into either leg of magic depending on the situation? All of these things were RDM suggestions years ago. Since RDM itself has never been modified in such a fashion as to have that great "fighter mage" image as is suggested by everything in the game except for the way the job can be played effectively, they keep complaining. That should be obvious.

Yes, I know that attack magic is what BLU has done in previous games, which is probably why it was chosen to be recreated here. In fact, it's because BLU is everything that RDM wanted that I play it. Even though my melee damage was better than the PLD (had Enhancing Sword), that strong desire to see me standing around doing nothing prevailed. (Most people haven't heard of /ma "Cure IV" <st> apparently, and I never needed Convert) I do wish to see RDM have their complaints answered after so long even though I have little intention of playing it any more.

I thought the complaint was that it was simplistic and useless, so why are you using that as a reason to say that it shouldn't be fixed?

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Originally Posted by Scuro

If you want complexities, play PUP or BLU, now that takes some know how, when it comes to RDM, I refresh, I haste, I cure, I regen if possible, I paralyze (II), I slow, and I blind if possible (oh and maybe pop of a nuke or two just to feel like I'm contributing other then sitting there with my thumb up my arse). I basically just nutshelled the role of a RDM, at least in Abyssea. And for those that say "Well thats Abyssea!", of course, because thats the only content that people are playing, and until that becomes obsolete, there is no point in discussing other content that I can practically solo on my 90 BLU or low man.

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That's kind of an Oximoron, saying one jobs over the other simply because it's has a preconceived playstyle that differs from RDM or any other specialized job. RDM can be as complex or simple as you want it to be, same goes for BLU, PUP, or any other job.

Problem is many jobs have a predesignated setting within a group, not because of efficiency but because most players want to take the easiest route (this might coincide with efficiency but is not always the case). Once that becomes a norm, anything that goes outside of those preconceived notions instantly sends up a red flag usually with "wtf you doing" or "ur doing it wrong". RDM has fallen into this setting due to ToAU and many of even the pro-magic crowd have become bored with the drollness of cycles, and want something to spice up their gaming experience from the stagnated state that has befallen RDM (just not through melee). However, it's hard to break away from the preconceived notions without being met with opposition in one form or another.

Don't think I'm just talking about melee RDM either this goes for the mage side and can be applied to other jobs as well. In fact FFXI has had a long history of this. There was a time it was mandatory for melee's to have /THF leveled, all /NIN ever got anyone was called a "n00b", haste WAS considered negligible, and BLM's were the kings of endgame. Of course it took alot of opposition, trial, and error, but those people who stepped out of the norm eventually figured out better methods that eventually became the new norm. Even when SE came out swinging the nerf bat, players never went back to old methods they usually took on or adapted a new form of the current method even if it was more inefficient because it was the "preconceived norm".

Edit: I forgot to mention a noteworthy time when it was considered "optimal" for RDM's to come /BLM to Chainspell > Escape.

Redmages ARE fighter-mages..yet early on SquareEnix has kept the, restrained by using mp pool, lowered skill levels, and constant casting cycles. They eventually gave RDM's a break with composure. However, this job has been extremely closely watched and nerf repeatedly.

Most RDM play styles are the same... Conserving MP means we are not using our tier III and IV's despite these being stronger than the few wacks of our swords and or occasional weapon strikes. We let ourselves become haste/refresh bots in normal play areas(NON-Abyssea).
Our nukes are just as strong as a bluemages, if only because we don't suffer from the same dangers of TP gain and enimity gain. Sure, a blue Mage can spam 2-4 physical spells and do over 2-4k damage but good luck getting a mob off him.

I would like to see more RDM self spells though. Not necessarily haste II(issues after all). But, things like "Magic Arrows", Phalanx III(target cast), Enspell III(think Rune/MP consumption per swing), "Magic Phalanx", etc.

I love BLU, its my first full +2/empyrean weapon job (even though Im whm4life, no point in doing empyrean on whm ill just get a k-club one of these days and use it on drk too) so I want you all to fully understand how much I love the job- with that said BLU should NEVER EVER get RR, raise, and even protect-like spells we are BLU not RDM WHM SCH.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Redmages ARE fighter-mages..yet early on SquareEnix has kept the, restrained by using mp pool, lowered skill levels, and constant casting cycles. They eventually gave RDM's a break with composure. However, this job has been extremely closely watched and nerf repeatedly.

Most RDM play styles are the same... Conserving MP means we are not using our tier III and IV's despite these being stronger than the few wacks of our swords and or occasional weapon strikes. We let ourselves become haste/refresh bots in normal play areas(NON-Abyssea).
Our nukes are just as strong as a bluemages, if only because we don't suffer from the same dangers of TP gain and enimity gain. Sure, a blue Mage can spam 2-4 physical spells and do over 2-4k damage but good luck getting a mob off him.

I would like to see more RDM self spells though. Not necessarily haste II(issues after all). But, things like "Magic Arrows", Phalanx III(target cast), Enspell III(think Rune/MP consumption per swing), "Magic Phalanx", etc.

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Phalanx is both magical and physical.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Redmages ARE fighter-mages..yet early on SquareEnix has kept the, restrained by using mp pool, lowered skill levels, and constant casting cycles. They eventually gave RDM's a break with composure. However, this job has been extremely closely watched and nerf repeatedly.

Most RDM play styles are the same... Conserving MP means we are not using our tier III and IV's despite these being stronger than the few wacks of our swords and or occasional weapon strikes. We let ourselves become haste/refresh bots in normal play areas(NON-Abyssea).
Our nukes are just as strong as a bluemages, if only because we don't suffer from the same dangers of TP gain and enimity gain. Sure, a blue Mage can spam 2-4 physical spells and do over 2-4k damage but good luck getting a mob off him.

I would like to see more RDM self spells though. Not necessarily haste II(issues after all). But, things like "Magic Arrows", Phalanx III(target cast), Enspell III(think Rune/MP consumption per swing), "Magic Phalanx", etc.

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That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, I'm sorry I don't care how much you THINK your elemental magic does, but no way in hell is your Tier IV is going to ever rival my BLU's Q.C or Goblin Rush. With or without TP. No nuke from a RDM can rival a BLU's, I'm sorry but either that BLU is doing it wrong, or your simply exaggerating lol.

Pretty easily inside aside from CW, outside is another matter.

@scuro... I did say that blue can pump more damage, but for greater threat. Physical spell are limited by the mob your facing though. High defense/evasion can effect your damage. Though, magical resist can also affect RDM's. I DO see blue as the more "damaging" of the Mage jobs..at least physically. But all it takes for a Bluemage to go down is a silence spell and a dispel or two...the same for any Mage jobs. Physically, I think blue are more squishy then RDM's. Without /nin, a blue would drop fast, being that nearly all of their solo buff spells take forever to cast.

Really it's flavoring or play style that makes ALL jobs interesting to me. I play and level them all.

I strongly disagree unfortunatly, we have Occultation which enduces a shadow like effect that is stronger then a RDMs blink. So with out /NIN we are still a better DD class and is even more apparent when /NIN is removed. Silence is remedied as all other mage classes silena, or a curing waltz. Which a BLU can easily use /DNC and use as an alternative style instead of /NIN and is actually very beneficial. Saying that is a weakness is pretty apparent and is still the same exact weakness as a RDM, so I'm not sure if thats a good argument and such. Also we do have the capability to swap into a mage nuker and I'm willing to argue, from what I've seen and done, a BLU's nukes will out-do a RDM's any day. Honestly BLU is just a balanced DD all around, magical or physical. Of course if you are going against something with magical resist, you go physical, if you got physical resist, you go magical, and we have the capability to swap to what is ever needed and do it effectively, not great, but very effective. And no they do not, Cocoon is a .5, Occultation is a .5 and animating wail is only a matter of seconds, I'm not sure what spells you are looking at to make such a claim, perhaps Voracious Trunk? Not much of a buff but it does absorb them.

I recently browsed through the BLU forums and wow. Just about every troll from here is a regular poster over there, guess we know where the hate's coming from.

On top of it ... their complaining about how they don't have enough damage spells and that SE should give them more offensive power. Heavy Strike is 32MP 2 set points and is 100% crit hit with a high damage fTP. Basically it's a perma SA VC for anyone who's played BLU/THF before. It was overpowered on the test server so SE altered it by giving it a accuracy penalty similar to sidewinder / slugshot, meaning its unreliably but high damage attack. And wow talk about some QQing, complaining that they can't out damage Ukon WAR's and Fudo SAM's on VWNM's now. And that SE now hates them.

Seriously ... talk about some pampered babies. They sound like the old school RNG after the nerf, or all the SAM's after abyssea was introduced (which happened to be the same set of people).