[dev1024] Job Adjustments - BST

Okay so am I the only person who thinks it is really lame that the only ability we are slated to get might as well be called "WASTE GIL"?

Dear developers - ever since you completely sidelined charm by making it useless in abyssea, voidwatch and ever other endgame scenario (essentially) BST has actually become quite an expensive job.

The last thing we needed was a new job ability that makes our jug pets more disposable. It already costs me an arm and a leg to participate in any event as a BST. Making the only new power we have available dependent on wasting our jugs - is really lame.

BST doesn't have a lot going for it. If you make it EVEN more expensive it will become as popular as RNG and COR.

Why not give us some procs or something useful that would actually get us invited to parties instead of a lame ability that will make our job more expensive?

/angry

This wasn't what I was expecting for Beastmaster, based on the manifesto.

It would be more interesting and useful if "Run Wild" would allow our pets to go into a powerful mini-"Rage mode" similar to HNMs for 5 minutes with a potential "tired" condition for a short period after where the pet receives a slow effect and reduced defense.

Very risky to use when solo, unless the enemy is near death. Useful for Damage Dealing in parties. Does not consume the jugpet. Carries the risk of loss of pet (rather than certain loss of pet).

Eh I dunno. I'm not a bst or anything, but another way to use jug pets sounds cool on paper atleast.

Stacks of Dancing Herbal Broth, Lucky Carrot Broth, and Mellow Bird Broth are all dirt cheap unless your server is really weird. The rest of the options aren't at Dollar Menu level but generally aren't that costly. Every single one of these options produces a monster more oriented towards dealing damage than Dipper Yuly, which is the only jug pet I'd say is expensive.

I'm not sure why you're complaining about the price when this job ability could potentially reduce or eliminate Beast Master's largest short-coming; the lack of any job ability or trait to greatly increase the damage of the master or the pet.

I'm not sure there's really enough information to go on at this time to really make a judgment about how worthwhile or worthless this ability will be. If it doesn't at least line up with Call Beast timer it will be a complete joke but if's it's for 15 mins to a half hour, I can see it being useful (though 30 mins is probably on the pipe dream end of the spectrum).

It will probably be five minutes.

And a lot of the time the only way I can get an invite to anything worth getting invited to as a bst is as ghetto TH with dipper yuly, which has stacks usually running on my server for 100K.

For some people that may be pocket change, but as someone who just rerolled a few months ago, I can't afford to be constantly bleeding gil in the course of my ordinary duties.

Also, the question has to be asked - why is it necessary to consume the jug pet? I mean seriously - if this was just damage boosting, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it isn't like crafters aren't already making a mint off of bsts.

Basically I just want to know why BST can't have a turn as one of the top five jobs. Why does it always have to remain crap tier?

Before I go on, I'd like to say it's awesome that you are phrasing your complaints articulately and clearly. This is something few people do, so it's nice to see even though I disagree with your premise.

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Originally Posted by Olor

It will probably be five minutes.

And a lot of the time the only way I can get an invite to anything worth getting invited to as a bst is as ghetto TH with dipper yuly, which has stacks usually running on my server for 100K.

For some people that may be pocket change, but as someone who just rerolled a few months ago, I can't afford to be constantly bleeding gil in the course of my ordinary duties.

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Yeah, that's roughly what Dipper Yuly costs on Phoenix as well. I think the mistake you're making is connecting this job ability directly to Dipper Yuly. He's mainly used for soloing things or providing Treasure Hunter, and this job ability isn't for either of those purposes.

Your assessment of how it will affect you and the play-style you are presently forced into isn't wrong, but I do think it's a very narrow view of things.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Also, the question has to be asked - why is it necessary to consume the jug pet? I mean seriously - if this was just damage boosting, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it isn't like crafters aren't already making a mint off of bsts.

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Since the dawn of FFXI, almost every job ability that does damage has had a drawback.

Berserk and Last Resort lower defense, which isn't a penalty but some guy at SE probably thought it was a decade ago.

Innin requires you to be positioned behind the monster, lowers your evasion, and it's potency decreases with time.

Sneak Attack and Trick Attack don't have a penalty in the literal sense, but require certain timing and positioning.

So yeah, it's old hat for an ability that adds damage to have a penalty or condition attached.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Basically I just want to know why BST can't have a turn as one of the top five jobs. Why does it always have to remain crap tier?

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It has a pet. Apparently pet jobs are really hard for any team that works or has ever worked on FFXI to deal with. The new team is doing better than the old one, so I'll take it.

I would be fine if it was a sort of "beserk" that lowered the jug's defense. I get the idea of tradeoffs. But requiring us to

a) spend more gil
b) take up yet MORE slots of inventory to carry enough pets (I already have like 12 slots taken up at any given time)

Really makes me unhappy. I mean I just won't use this JA probably. So it is, if nothing else, a waste.

Well it does kind of depend on how powerful this ability is. Its really all up in the air atm if its worth anything at all or if consuming the pet is a silly constraint or not.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

It has a pet. Apparently pet jobs are really hard for any team that works or has ever worked on FFXI to deal with. The new team is doing better than the old one, so I'll take it.

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Yes, I am really happy with some of the new jugs they are adding. It does seem like they are trying, but sometimes I worry that they think every player has so much gil that they can afford job abilities that delete a consumable that can cost up to 14K each.

I have 70K on my char right now. I can't really afford a job ability that makes bst more expensive.

I just get frustrated cause I had to level whm because no one would invite me to do anything as bst - and soloing seal NMs is SUPER ineffective with no yellow proc. It just seems like BST could use something to make it really special and stand out - NOT something to make an unpopular job more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Olor

I would be fine if it was a sort of "beserk" that lowered the jug's defense. I get the idea of tradeoffs. But requiring us to

a) spend more gil
b) take up yet MORE slots of inventory to carry enough pets (I already have like 12 slots taken up at any given time)

Really makes me unhappy. I mean I just won't use this JA probably. So it is, if nothing else, a waste.

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I do agree with you on the "Berserk" bit. I'd love to have an ability that would make my pet hit much harder at the expense of making it too frail to take hits while solo.

Assuming they went this route rather than simply mirroring Berserk/Aggressor because the ability has a very powerful effect and relatively long duration, though, I'm fine with losing my jug pet for it. If it turns out to be +50% Attack for 1 minute, then I'll be complaining right alongside you.

I will readily admit I'm in a position to be much less bothered by gil cost than yourself. I'd like to commend you on having the huge balls (or ovaries) to level Beast Master as your first job to 90. That's not an easy thing to do.

ovaries, and yeah it was my first job to 90.

But after spending days responding to tells to have everyone go "What other jobs do you have? Can you come WHM?" I went back and leveled whm so I could gear bst. It really sucks not to be able to play the job I love though. I really with the Devs would actually revisit procs - have say double the procs with either one or the other being able to be used or something, because some jobs got a really raw deal.

I think its too early to tell whether burning the jug after the effect wears off makes it worthless or not. If Run Wild gives a massive boost for 5 mins, I think it will be well worth it, but I doubt it will be anything crazy. On the other hand if the boost is fairly marginal it wouldn't really be worth it. I personally believe that its too soon to say if the ability is really worth the trade off, because if the boost is significant I wouldn't mind send a little extra gil. So until we know the duration of effect and potency, I think its too early to start complaining.

Of course there is an easy way to fix this SE, make it so that we can by some useful jugs from NPCs or make the recipes easy and skill requirement low enough for everyone to make use of it.

Maybe they should give BST a "Ninja Tool Expertise" or "Recycle"-type trait just for jugs.

It does nothing for the job in general, but it could cut its costs over time~

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Originally Posted by Zatias

Maybe they should give BST a "Ninja Tool Expertise" or "Recycle"-type trait just for jugs.

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This could be called "Body Odor". It would work under the logic that a Beast Master smells bad enough to sometimes attract a monster with just the potency of his or her own unwashed funk, and never has to open up the jug.

I support such a thing 100%.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

This could be called "Body Odor". It would work under the logic that a Beast Master smells bad enough to sometimes attract a monster with just the potency of his or her own unwashed funk, and never has to open up the jug.

I support such a thing 100%.

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lol. sounds great.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Basically I just want to know why BST can't have a turn as one of the top five jobs. Why does it always have to remain crap tier?

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I don't really consider bst to be "crap tier."

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't really consider bst to be "crap tier."

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Well it is awesome, admittably but not where it matters most of the time. Yes, the damage bonus versus the trashiest trash ever is great - but does that get invites?

I guess the fact that I would never get invited to work with others even to get the gear I would use on this job makes me feel like I am crap tier. Maybe it is a playerbase issue more than a programming issue, but this JA does nothing to improve that.

Honestly I would rather they scrap the level increase and actually BALANCE abyssea - where most of the gear I need is. But I haven't felt like logging in lately because I know if I want anything for my BST I will only have a chance to get it in a reasonable amount of time if I am white mage.

When I started to do quests for my seals I lost my will to really play.

I don't want to log in and "work" as a whm to get my gear for bst so I can "play" my video game. But the design is like that currently.

I guess this thread partially goes to my feelings about that.

BST doesn't get invites mostly because people regard it as a "solo job." Indeed, most BSTs didn't even try to look for parties back in the day. There was a certain stigma associated with them (albeit unfairly) but the unpopularity of beasts doesn't have much to do with how good they are.

the old EXP reduction thing back in the day didn't help, I am sure

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

BST doesn't get invites mostly because people regard it as a "solo job." Indeed, most BSTs didn't even try to look for parties back in the day. There was a certain stigma associated with them (albeit unfairly) but the unpopularity of beasts doesn't have much to do with how good they are.

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The whole notion of BST being a solo-only job was the creation of an era long past where the class indeed was one of the most viable classes for solo activities. This was the same era where 3k/hr EXP was norm and BST thrived because everyone was so damn mediocre that killing monsters with pets was better than dealing with an often terrible 6man pt.

The reason BST stayed a soloist is because SE abandoned the class. While other jobs were getting their fixes, tweaks and upgrades BST got a whole lot of nothing for a very long time.

Flash forward to a new era where SE is attempting to make all classes viable in some form and BST is behind other classes that had been receiving updates over the years. It isn't only about raw power in the world of DD rather than having a niche that makes your class desirable at events.

Ranger for instance is a class that fared terribly in Abyssea. Everything being so simple to melee meant there was no niche for RNG even though the class was perfectly functional as a DD.

What will BSTs niche be? The reason the job is considered "crap tier" is because very few events give the class an opportunity to shine. How many events can BST claim to be most ideal at?

Going back to RNG, while it sucked in Abyssea the class climbs back to the top of the pack in Voidwatch.

While I see what SE is trying to do, unless the boost is worth the loss of the pet and lasts a while (long enough to be near in-sync with Call Beast) the condition of BST won't change much.

I think if RW compounds the pets effectiveness into whatever the duration is it would be good for zerging or if your pet isn't lasting very long to begin with.

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BST doesn't get invites mostly because people regard it as a "solo job."

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People view WAR and MNK as a low man job, they still manage to get into larger groups though. It isn't really what people think of the job as much as "is the job the best ever? Yes/No?" If you are best, congratulations people will invite you.

Regarding the ability though... was it said that this summoned the pet when used? Else it seems like a good ability to use towards the end of a jugs life. Oh, I've used 25 of my 30 mins of pet life, time to use 5 mins of super power to get the most out of it.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

The reason BST stayed a soloist is because SE abandoned the class. While other jobs were getting their fixes, tweaks and upgrades BST got a whole lot of nothing for a very long time.

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This, thank you. We have very little which makes us stand apart. Yeah, we can deal damage - and in some content - some of the best damage - but so can a lot of other more useful jobs.

So there is no real reason to invite a bst to do a mega boss, or to an atma run or to a seal run, or on an nm run - except, as I said if no thf is available - they might invite for ghetto TH via dipper yuly

For what its worth, BST and Dipper can solo most wind-casting NMs, but you probably knew that already D;

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Originally Posted by Zatias

For what its worth, BST and Dipper can solo most wind-casting NMs, but you probably knew that already D;

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yeah, I can solo a lot, even being still admittably pretty gimp. The problem is without procs it is sort of fail.

I mean it is fun the first time... but then you get like 1 seal or nothing at all, and think.. ugh.

Well it's still useful if you want to help someone get a drop (like Rapidus Sax) or are missing 1 +2 item that is a 100% drop on the mob.

Still that's limited usage, but I enjoy being able to solo stuff so I don't always have to wait for my group.

Don't Forget that all content made after abyssea like dynamis and voidwatch we lose are pets at the start of every pop NM fight! That really needs to be fixed.

Have pet ready - pop NM - Pet despawns 1 jug down - call beast use new ability another jug down... I swear bst gets screwed every update. Just 1 run in dynamis I waste atleast 6 jugs due to the despawning issue.

If you are relying on shout groups for seals your doing it wrong there is a thing in the game called a Linkshell maybe you should find yourself a decent one. I can come bst almost anytime I want but its becoming harder to do with how many jugs I burn up and low inventory space.

I'll wait until we know exactly how this JA will work before passing judgement.

The most popular Familiars last for like 2-3 hours, which is not very necessary in most group activities (considering you might be zoning and moving around a lot). That long duration is suited well for a long, solitary venture in a zone but not so much for a party in my opinion. Trading some of that excessive time for an enhancement to the pet is a great idea, but the JA's usefulness will hinge entirely on its duration.

I see a few possible scenarios:

The JA has a duration of 5:00 - 10:00 minutes, effectively throwing away your Jug/Gil for an Oh Shit! moment or a focused event like an NM battle or BCNM fight. This will be very useful in some specific situations, but widely unused and somewhat insignificant overall.

The JA has a duration of 15:00 - 25:00 minutes. This would be a gray area, and hard to judge between useful and wasteful. Unfortunately, I think this is where it will probably land- and probably at 15:00.

The JA has a duration of 30:00+ minutes. This would allow us to sacrifice our ability to hang in a zone and solo for multiple hours at a time with the same pet (which liberates a lot of time constraints associated with most of the game- and I think is a big reason why people play BST) for an enhancement of that pet. The pet would be staying for an acceptable chunk of time in the context of most activities (it's just like a basic food effect), while gaining a boost for that same context.
If you plan on being in a zone by yourself for a long period of time, you're probably better off sticking with the one pet (and probably a different one) for its full two hour duration- but if you want the most out of it in a different, group-oriented situation, you can cut its duration down to 1/4 to better fill your role.

I think 30 minutes flat is the sweet spot, and I think this is because there's a relationship between using jugs and using food. Hopefully their testers felt the same way.

Personally, I expect a 15:00 minute duration with an eventual capability to increase it with gear/merits to 20:00 or 25:00. I'm really hoping that the JA will have a strict 30:00 minute duration while using gear/merits to enhance the actual effect though.

Given the development team's usual thoughts on balance, I have a sinking feeling that Run Wild will have a barely noticeable effect if it lasts longer than five minutes.

I'm personally hoping for something like an "Occasionally Attacks 2-3 Times (30/40/30)" effect that matches up with the timer of Call Beast. I definitely won't complain if it's a minor buff over a ten minute or longer duration, though.

As long as it isn't a three minute duration for +10% Attack and +10 Accuracy or something, I'll be happy. Please don't make it a +10% Attack and +10 Accuracy effect for three minutes, development team.

If the ability lasts long enough to be close to Call Beasts timer and has potent effects then it'll be a success though the thought of chain spawning Dipper Yulys is nauseating.

You could in theory use cheap pets like Nazuna, Sieghard or Anna if the ability is potent enough but this would limit use on more expensive jugpets like Yuly, Fargann and Sashra for most individuals.

If the ability does indeed last 15mins or more then the cost could be justified but this again rests on how powerful the ability makes pets.

@ OP

If the problem is one of expense, then Beastmaster needs an ability or trait like Ranger or Ninja has that occasionally does not expend a jug when using Call Beast.

Maybe the problem isn't Beastmaster can't proc. Maybe the problem is procing. Correction, the problem is procing, in all of its ill-conceived glory.

I bet it'll be a 5-10 min timer with a 20 second duration :3 I like BST, but honestly, we all know it's coming. I mean, look at Deus Ex Mac. for PUP, you can recall your maton with almost no MP/HP, if you get unlucky its pretty much boned by an AoE lol.