DEV[1024] Job Adjustments: scholar

I can understand that due to balance issues scholar cannot use some of the more more popular spells as blm or whm. But i feel that under certain circumstances we should be allowed to wield greater magic than what we have already.

Merton is such a great addition to scholar, but to only allow its use under tabula rasa is kind of a let down. it seems to be a powerful spell and i understand the development team wanting to limit our use of it. I have also noticed that the community has issues with sch not being able to cast higher tier cure spells. Cure v in particular.

As a sch, i know my place in being a hybrid of the two job, and i have no intention of wanting to soar above them. But i think there could be provisions made to enhance scholars hybrid role.

A set of stratagems that act like the newly implemented blue mage ability that allows it to use HNM abilities. I haven't gone as far to come up with a name for these abilities, but i will outline what they can do:

Ability 1) under the effect of Addendum White, consumes 2-3 stratagems and allows user to use additional white magic spells: cure v, holy(1), auspice.

Ability 2) under the effect of Addendum: Black, consumes 2-3 stratagems and allows user to use additional black(dark also) magic: -ja spells, comet/meteor, aspir 2, drain 2.

All of that may seem like a lot of things to just give sch, but i implore anyone reading this to consider the impact of using 2-3 stratagems for one spell. That alone seems to be a large enough penalty for the use of such high tier spells. Although if that is not enough, i guess adding an additional mp and/or casting time penalty to the spell in use could be another thing to consider.

Honestly, I've resigned myself to getting thunder V at 99, and maybe regen IV at 96 or 97. Scholar is no more than a novelty job to SE, we may as well accept this now and start getting gear for jobs that will see end game content.

when it comes to mages, i guess its hard for sch to fit in. other jobs can do what sch can better. im not so willing to admit defeat though. all i can hope for is that the development team can do something to breathe more life into one of my favorite jobs. the community for sch is strong, i know many of us are out there. i hope they see this.

Not sure what spending 2-3 stratagems for one cure spell would do for the job. Just give sch cure v under add. white or make a cure4.5, I don't rightly care. I hate the stretching I see to try to justify giving sch or rdm a spell when they're so far below any kind of a baseline.

imo sch as a support healer wouldnt need to spam a spell like cure v. having it at our disposal at the cost of three stratagems seems reasonable to me. abyssea makes us think we need to over cure, but personally i think cure 4 is enough for a sch with rapture.

I find it hard to imagine having three spare stratagems in a stressful curing environment, especially to blow on one spell.

Am I the only one that realized that Tabula Rasa lasts 60 seconds, not 30 like the update notes said? So technically, it's only being increased by 30 seconds, not a minute.

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Originally Posted by Ank

I find it hard to imagine having three spare stratagems in a stressful curing environment, especially to blow on one spell.

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allow me to express my opinion on sch main healing and nuking i guess. being a hybrid means(to me at least) being able to do what each of the mains can do, but not as efficiently or potently. im fine with having sch not being as good as whm or blm. and i do not think they should be denied higher tier spells from each class. but as i stated before some type of penalty should be in place.

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Originally Posted by Eric

Am I the only one that realized that Tabula Rasa lasts 60 seconds, not 30 like the update notes said? So technically, it's only being increased by 30 seconds, not a minute.

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in 2 hour situations say u are zerging something, the extra 30 seconds in comparison to the original 60 seconds can be used for rotations to different parties when using embrave. so in that sense, its still a welcomed bonus.

I never said it wasn't welcomed. I was just pointing it out.

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Originally Posted by zell_

allow me to express my opinion on sch main healing and nuking i guess. being a hybrid means(to me at least) being able to do what each of the mains can do, but not as efficiently or potently. im fine with having sch not being as good as whm or blm. and i do not think they should be denied higher tier spells from each class. but as i stated before some type of penalty should be in place.

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The term hybrid gets thrown around a lot, and it's such an elastic term that it pretty much fails at properly describing things. For instance, red mage could be a white mage and black mage hybrid, but it's not really in between those two job. It takes a little bit of both and combines it will a lot of enfeebling, a little support, and a dash of melee (not as much as many red mages like to pretend, but enspells, phalanx and composure are all melee buffs). They have access to all their abilities all the time, which means that they can be completely reactive to whats happening right now.

Scholars are a different type of hybrid. They do exist between the two extremes of white mage and black mage, but they specialize into one at the expensive of the other. My vision of scholar is a job that can hang with black mages when focusing on it (specifically by burning stratagems), or they can hang with white mage when focusing on it (again, but burning stratagems), but if they try to do both then they end up burning all their stratagems to switch between addendum white and black. I should also say that I have no problem with the specialized classes being a bit better then a scholar who is specializing, but if a specialist isn't available a scholar should be able to step in and play the role adequately.

Black mages sometimes grumble about scholars doing similar damage on single target nukes, but they have superior tools and a much deeper spell list to separate themselves as specialists. Scholars do fine on the nuking side of things because if you run out of stratagems you can nuke without for less damage, but it ultimately has little impact on the party. The issue with scholar is that the light arts side isn't strong enough right now, and in end game events you can't have healing suddenly drop off. It doesn't matter if you go the rapture or penury route to try healing with cure IV, you're going to run out of stratagems and pull hate from cure spam.

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Originally Posted by Eric

I never said it wasn't welcomed. I was just pointing it out.

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ahh ok sorry about that then.

you are correct about it being a different type of hybrid. it can go deeper into one of its two arts via addendum. and basically what this thread was made for was to inquire about pushing scholar even deeper into tiers of those two extremes. basically more healing magic abilities and more dark/black magic abilities. or even spells that are unique to sch that make it at least keep up with whm and blm.

I don't think that giving sch curev would bring it so far above whm that it would require a penalty, making it addendum white only already requires the sch to focus on light arts in order to toss them out. If anything, more addendum spells would be nice so that they feel more useful to put up. But I don't really want to add an appendix to my addendum =/

I don't like the idea of gaining access to higher tiers of white or black magic via the use of additional strategems, or, as Ank stated so well, "adding an appendix to my addendum."

At that point, I might as well have come WHM or BLM. The use of even one more strat (let alone two or three) to push me into appendix mode would be so restrictive that the idea of being able to toggle when necessary would be almost lost, and take away one of the major things I like about SCH. More importantly, if all that is done with the job is to add these higher tiers of spells white and black mage already have, then I don't see the point of me choosing to play SCH over those jobs. All we would have done is create a job that doesn't have to go back to MH between fights to switch from WHM to BLM.

My favorite thing about SCH is that even though we start as being a white or black mage with a couple neat MP and casting reduction strats, the job took a unique identity with the introduction of accession, storms and later helices. That's when my interest swelled, and I like that SE has tried to keep that concept going for SCH by not adding Cure V and instead trying to focus on unique abilities.

In concept, the ideas are sound if you look at them in the context of what old exp parties used to be like, and second, for battles that last a while and require some strategy. For example, if you can control enmity well enough, you won't have to waste MP cure bombing the DRK or saving the BLM. WHM can't control what the DRK is doing and thus just has to respond with cures. We could potentially "cure" differently in this way by not having to cure at all, and that takes some forethought. If you can increase TP gain for the right people enough you can help a PLD or NIN keep hate by letting him do more damage and thus have to cure other people less. If you can create skillchains with magic, you can add that to storms to let the BLMs and yourself kill more quickly.

The problem, as we all know, is that these new tools are not potent enough to be used in the ideal way. Additionally, they seem based on old party styles that don't fit the context of Abyssea, where enmity and TP gain are out of control, and where trying to time an Immanence SC with WSs going off every other second (not too mention gear swap lag that ruins your timing) is so frustrating the ability just becomes a solo/duo tool (though I mist admit, a very fun one at that).

The concept of SCH being a unique healer and nuker 40-75 is why I've always advocated giving SCH a unique damage mitigation or recovery spell that is not Cure V, but serves a similar purpose. Cure V will let me main heal in parties, but I choose SCH over my WHM for a reason. I'd love to be able to do what I did 40-75 and keep a party alive through semi-carefully planned damage prevention and slow recovery, rather than repeated casting of a single reaction spell.

The problem I'm having realistically with any of the good suggestions on this job forum to cure in some unique way is that SE already has some idea in mind of what they want SCH to do, yet they're scared to implement it in a way that we can actually do it right. That's where I then understand these suggestions that we just be given Cure V because even playing SCH as almost-WHM would be better than not playing it at all.

I sincerely hope that this latest job announcement is only a taste of what will actually be implemented for levels 91-95. Their roadmap did suggest more frequent updates. Also, the announcement yesterday came very close to the inital responses from the dev team to players' feedback on the manifesto, leading me to believe that all that stuff they said they were considering for SCH in the three rep posts we got will come down the road a bit.

I'm very interested in Merton (or what ever horrendous name they stupidly changed it to - my bitterness over this will never die) and Embrava (I actually like this name better than Brave). There is potential there for some very interesting contributions to both Abyssea and post Abyssea end game...

If the numbers work out well. And that is where I'm worried that the tired 76-90 problem of Overpromise and Underdeliver will unfortunately plague SCH again.

I'm really warming to the idea of enhanced dmg mitigation for sch or rdm, especially if cure v is as out of the question as it apparently is. There are a lot of things that could cover that from reflect, elemental absorptions, stoneskin2, whatever.

Anyone else kind of hoping enlightenment will give access to merton/brave?

although my ideas seem to be out of the question in terms of actually being added, i do enjoy the conversation that has come from me bringing them up. merton9999, i understand your points of view and i do agree, damage mitigation would be a wonderful addition.

and to ank, that would be amazing if enlightenment did that. i mean just thinking about if they allow us to access those spells that way gets me all excited. i mean it makes sense for it to do that. i sure hope that is the case. and if its not, msg to the community reps: please do allow embrave and merton/whatever its called now to be accessed with the ability enlightenment!

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Originally Posted by Ank

I'm really warming to the idea of enhanced dmg mitigation for sch or rdm, especially if cure v is as out of the question as it apparently is. There are a lot of things that could cover that from reflect, elemental absorptions, stoneskin2, whatever.

Anyone else kind of hoping enlightenment will give access to merton/brave?

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Heck yeah on enlightenment allowing Merton and Brave. A lot of people insist there's no reason to merit Enlightenment past 1, but with my play style I really like it at 5/5. Merton and Brave every 5 minutes? LOL. My expectation is that we will be able to boost Brave to 7.5 minutes with Perpetuance and AF3+2 hands so I'm guessing this won't happen, but a SCH can dream.

I'm glad you mentioned Reflect too. The constant argument against it is that most mobs will absorb the element they cast so you wouldn't want to reflect it. That's exactly I want it to go to SCH. Make it so reflect changes the elemental alignment of the reflected spell to the weather currently on the target. I love the idea of not only damage mitigation for SCH but in spells that actually combine our LA and DA sides. With this type of reflect you could prevent damage and nuke with the mob's weakness element all at once. I'd like to see it be almost insta-cast but last only 5-10 seconds, with a fairly high MP cast (Cure IV-V-ish). That way you'd have to react quickly like stun and time it right. I'd also like it to be fairly quick to recast, so SCH could actually use it as a Cure V alternative on casting mobs if we're smart and fast.

I'm also getting ahead of myself with a JA/JT concept from FFIX where reflected spells would do double damage. We could get a merit ability that added a MAB percent to reflected spells.

it brings great joy to me that you guys are thinking outside of the box on this stuff. really nice ideas!

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Originally Posted by zell_

although my ideas seem to be out of the question in terms of actually being added, i do enjoy the conversation that has come from me bringing them up. merton9999, i understand your points of view and i do agree, damage mitigation would be a wonderful addition.

and to ank, that would be amazing if enlightenment did that. i mean just thinking about if they allow us to access those spells that way gets me all excited. i mean it makes sense for it to do that. i sure hope that is the case. and if its not, msg to the community reps: please do allow embrave and merton/whatever its called now to be accessed with the ability enlightenment!

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I'm enjoying the conversation too. Despite the backlash over the announcement I really am sticking to the fact that the dev response to our manifesto feedback was just too close time-wise to actually implement anything other than what they already told us in the manifesto for the Augtember update.

I think it's important to continue the discussion at least for a few more update cycles and see what happens. What bothers me most is that the SCH updates 76-99 seemed so geared toward non-Abyssea style play when everyone was doing Abyssea that it made me wonder if the dev team actually plays or listens to people who do, or if they're stuck on some vision they had for SCH at 75 cap in 2007.

Merton's behavior seems ideal for Abyssea in some ways, so we'll see if they're getting the idea. However, depending on what we all end up doing for the next year, as has been said recently, Merton seems a little .... "doh! If only I had that in 2010!"

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, and I wanted to put it somewhere, but I feel SCH should get unique curing tools, not necessarily access to Cure V. For instance, a Helix-type cure--that is a cure that has an initial cure, then has a HoT ticking afterwards.

Oh god nini you fixed sch

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Originally Posted by Ninian

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, and I wanted to put it somewhere, but I feel SCH should get unique curing tools, not necessarily access to Cure V. For instance, a Helix-type cure--that is a cure that has an initial cure, then has a HoT ticking afterwards.

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Yeah i'm surprised no one has suggested this before.

Wow SCH's are kewl ppl! you guys just keep to topic and are just so nice and sweet and cool! I love you guys :D Any ways, I was honestly thinking about lvling SCH and such, I had it lvl 64 on my first character b4 he got stolen and deleted, pre-lvl sync era, and I enjoyed it w/ what little I had to do with it and now I want another mage job aside from SMN and BLU(DD mage yes it is...) and I hate BLM and WHM with passions.... but RDM was once my love child and I loved it dearly indeed, but I got to endgame at 75 cap(where things were with my first character) and it was shoved down my throat like this "Meripo! RDM RDM RDM CURE CURE CURE REFRESH HASTE NOW!" Me:"/sigh... falling asleep here gu...zzZZzz.." or in my HNMLS "Come RDM" Me:"Um we have 6 RDM's already 3 in alliance 3 outside" "COME RDM NOW OR NO DROPS FOR YOU!" Me:" I can give hateless nukes on SMN ; ; or spam Curing Waltz from lesser mobs on DNC or Acetnic Burst(sp?) the mob every few secs~!" "NOW RDM NOW!" Me:"ok.. /sigh, better get my Bahamut staff soon*grumbles*" Anyways, RDM is completely out of the question, I'm hoping SCH is honestly getting something unique to their play style I want to lvl this job(the right way b/c I hate skilling up anything outside of melee if I burn) and I want something to come to other then (really nice though!) unique 2hr spells, that Helix type curing sounds really nice and so SCH-esq. something or even Reflect(ga) would be nice, anything, Cure V is a nice thought when thinking inside abyssea, but it isn't completely needed for SCH at least imo(Though RDM should get it "back" just b/c SE took it away from them in the beginning and Flash, why RDM is stuck with natural Divine skill and no magic to skill up now, RDM just seems mundane enough to have Cure V keeping up with the play of RDM I suppose :/)

@wolfshadow OMG you're signature made me giggle hehehe!

It would really just be a glorified Regen spell, and while I certainly wouldn't object to it, I don't really see the need for it either.

While I'm here, I'm going to go ahead and voice my general distaste for the SCHs who believe that the lack of Cure V is holding our job back/making it worthless. Allow me to explain why:

Speaking from my own experiences, the best usage of a Light Arts SCH back at 75 was DD party healing duty; Stoneskinga, Phalanxga, Enspellga, Fire/Thunderstormga along with Cure IV and Regen made SCH the best option, as you could mitigate large amounts of AoE damage sustained while spot-curing when one of them managed to grab hate, as well as adding some damage potential via Enspells; the tools we've gained since, such as Haste, Refresh, Alquodium, Perpetuance, and more Strategems would make it even better.

No other healing/support job was as well-suited to this role as SCH; WHM is considerably less able in this role; Curagas are disgusting hate magnets when used for this purpose.. Cure V is low enmity sure, but it has a recast and MP cost that quickly adds up when trying to heal 4-5 DDs after every AoE.. the dearth of Strategem charges means that keeping Stoneskin up fulltime is pretty much impossible, along with not having access to Phalanx, Storm(surge)s, Enspells.. RDM is even less attractive.

WHM has Cure V/VI with their fixed low enmity values for a very specific reason; if you're fighting something where you need that sort of sustained Cure horsepower, that's WHM territory. Plain and simple. WHM has one purpose in the game, and that's making people not die. If they were to outsource it to other jobs.. sure, WHM would still be a great healer, and would have some specific tricks to make it desireable, but the fact is that it would quickly be relegated to DRK/DRG/PUP/etc status; general purpose jobs with niche abilities for niche situations. It would steal much of WHM's thunder, and given that those DD jobs are still quite capable on their own terms, WHM is nigh useless outside of tossing cures at meatshields. Thus, no other job is going to be allowed to step on its toes. I mean, if RDM and SCH were granted Cure V, they would instantly ascend to WHM-level tank-healing power, and still retain all of their other considerable abilities; WHM would instantly be relegated to the backseat they rode in for most of the game's life, and we'd be right back to Colibri; and to that, I say no fucking thanks.

Just to be clear, the only reason any of you want Cure V is because of Abyssea, and seriously? That shit is over and done; it may still have most of the relevant gear at this point, but as time progresses, it's going to be just one more endgame event like Dynamis, Salvage, etc. Asking for major adjustments to game balance based on wanting to homogenize all 20 jobs into the 4-5 that are most efficient for one event is retarded, end of story.

Getting back to my initial point, in terms of game balance, SCH is it's own unique job. As I outlined above, there are situations where it can out-support WHM by using it's particular suite of abilities to support a party, just as it can out-damage a BLM by using it's own unique abilities (to support a floored-enmity set, as just one example). The problem isn't the job, it's just that most SCHs think that Addendum: White means they're a WHM, and Addendum: Black means they're a BLM, so they try to play SCH as that job and are, unsurprisingly, less than pleased with the results (which are exactly what they should get).

In closing, if you're one of those people that think we should get Cure V, Comet, Meteor, etc. with Addenda.. you are playing the wrong job. SCH is not a WHM, and it is not a BLM; it is a tactician, and trying to play it as such will lead to much better results than trying to play it as the job you should've leveled instead.

Edits!

My suggestion to the Devs would be to further distinguish between WHM and SCH by improving SCH's ability to mitigate damage (as opposed to WHM's ability to cure damage):

-A Scherzo-type spell would be fitting, I think.

-I could also see a pair of spells to reduce physical and magical damage being very useful; 10% each, overwrite each other so you can only apply one or the other, and make it a separate term outside PDT/MDT from gear/Shell. That way, someone wearing no gear would get 10% damage reduction, and someone wearing -50% in gear would get 5% reduction; would keep it from being too overpowered, while still providing some benefit to players who take the time to acquire/equip proper gear.

-A spell that functions in a similar fashion to a cross between Migawari and that tonberry collar (reduces grudge damage based on current tp, which is consumed); one minute duration, long recast time, single-target, party cast; mitigates one severely damaging attack at the cost of current TP; activation could depend on current tier (0 tp=115%+ of current HP, 100tp = 100%+ of current HP, 200tp = 85% of current HP, 300tp = 70% of current HP; could also scale, idc); could also make damage mitigated vary by TP, or just have it function like Migawari where it absorbs the attack completely. Given that there are two abilities (EA, Scherzo) that reduce severe damage, and just one that nullifies it, I'd lean towards the latter.

-A pair of spells that heighten/lessen enmity lost through damage taken; accession the former onto your DDs, single-cast the latter onto the tank. Make them not suck like the Animus spells.

-How about some (volatile) Enmity Helices?


-From below:

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Give us a spell that converts big incoming damage into DoT (strengh depending on total dmg it would have dealt?) instead, that can then be erased from the target through erase or any other new spell. Sounds overpowered? Just scale it correctly.

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I like this a lot, although being able to subsequently remove it would be too much I think. Just being able to convert a block of 2k damage into 10 ticks of 200HP would be really awesome.

No matter how you turn it. there has been no new cure for SCH (lvl 55) or RDM (lvl 48) (or PLD lvl 55) for 40 level! And Cure 4 is SJable by any other Job. I don't even care about Cure V, but there has to be at least some tool, to improve the currently lacking ability to keep people alive accordingly. Take a look at how SCH main healed back in the days of a lvsl75 Vana'diel:

Back in the days SCH was a good healer because it was able to prevent DMG like almost no other job, which lessened the need of cure spammage. Stoneskin never uncapped after the level cap has been upped, neither was a second tier released.

I'd like to see tools to prevent dmg instead of curing all of it. That would fit much better to SCH. Make it possible for us to use rapture on it to enhance it so it absorbs 525 HP (+50% from rapture, +60% with emp+2 resulting in 560 HP absorbed)

Give us a spell that converts big incoming damage into DoT (strengh depending on total dmg it would have dealt?) instead, that can then be erased from the target through erase or any other new spell. Sounds overpowered? Just scale it correctly.

There could be many different approaches to give SCH more tools to keep people alive without stepping on WHMs toes.
Anything really but not just nothing at all. That is not acceptable!

Pretty sure most sch's couldn't care less if they got cure v or if they got something else, the idea is basically this: something.

Cure v is talked about, I'm sure, because it seems like the most obvious and simple solution to bring sch back to level ground on cure duty. It does seem kind of silly to bend over backwards to -not- continue a spell line that has progressed four tiers in the past.

When anything that matters drops stoneskin in one hit, and phalanx is only -29 dmg the only thing that feels useful on my tank is aquaveil. But it seems that we all wouldn't mind some new and improved damage mitigation tools, and I really hope the devs are paying attention because some genuinely good ideas have been brought up here.

Well, SE just gave Red Mage OAT in a spell, Occ. Absorb Damage Taken seems like a logical second step. And obviously Red Mage wont get it, since Regain was a logical next step from Refresh.

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Originally Posted by zell_

please do allow embrave and merton/whatever its called now to be accessed with the ability enlightenment!

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I really like this idea, and I think it scales well with the job. Considering you couldn't do this it until you could merit anyways. Even then with max merits you'd only be able to use it every 5 mins. Also because of the mp requirements I doubt you'd see this abused too much outside of abysea. Scholars may be awesome with mp manipulation but 30% is a lot.

EDIT: Though in all fairness both of those spells are made with an oh crap moment in mind. I think if you made this accessible outside of a 2hr a heavier mp cost should be assessed say 50-60% of max mp.

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Originally Posted by Parrow89

I really like this idea, and I think it scales well with the job. Considering you couldn't do this it until you could merit anyways. Even then with max merits you'd only be able to use it every 5 mins. Also because of the mp requirements I doubt you'd see this abused too much outside of abysea. Scholars may be awesome with mp manipulation but 30% is a lot.

EDIT: Though in all fairness both of those spells are made with an oh crap moment in mind. I think if you made this accessible outside of a 2hr a heavier mp cost should be assessed say 50-60% of max mp.

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I can see your point of a 5 minute cooldown being balanced along with the MP cost for Merton, but not with Embrava, unless the planned duration is a lot less than a standard 3 minute buff. Effectively we'll be making it 7.5 minutes with Perpetuance + AF3+2 hands, so you'd essentially be full-timing Embrava if it could be used under Enlightenment.

Now, watch SE make the initial duration of Embrava 1 minute with the expectation that we will push it to an abnormally short 2.5 minute duration with Perp. and hands. Then I'd say yeah, make it usable under Enlightenment so we could half-time it.

We have to see the potency of both first though really. I miss AOE nukes when I'm on SCH as opposed to BLM. Getting one every two hours seems like too much of a limitation. Of course ISL chests, Revitalizers, etc. I'm fine with SCH not being able to spam them freely, especially with our ridiculous MP regeneration, but a little closer to BLM than 2 hours isn't too much to ask.

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Originally Posted by zell_

when it comes to mages, i guess its hard for sch to fit in. other jobs can do what sch can better. im not so willing to admit defeat though. all i can hope for is that the development team can do something to breathe more life into one of my favorite jobs. the community for sch is strong, i know many of us are out there. i hope they see this.

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What annoys me is that it really isn't as hard as you'd think.

It is now, because SE went about the thing in all the wrong ways, and instead of just overhauling to fix the mistakes they made with jobs like SCH and PUP they'd rather make modifications that don't really change much. Most of what SCH is right now, RDM can pull off a lot easier. Scholar should have been a job completely different from WHM/BLM/RDM, and the problem is SE decided to go with making it a lot more complicated than it needed to be. SCH could have easilly just gotten all unique spells:

1~30 Tier I-II Helixes, Tier I Storms, Tier I-II buffs (Protect, Shell, Regen), Stoneskin, Phalanx, Invisible/Sneak/Deodorize
31~60 Tier III Helixes, Tier II Storms, Tier III-IV Buffs, Klimaform, Dispel, Regain (at 41, to be opposite RDM's Refresh)
60~90 Tier IV Helixes, Tier III Storms, Tier V Buffs, Regain II/Helix V as merits

Then you can fill in Cures and the Enmity controlling spells where you think they fit.

SCH could have been a complete unique and interesting class built around the "strategy" element of its back story, but instead they made it into a RDM clone that has to pop a bunch of JAs before it can do anything. The abilities are great, don't get me wrong, but seriously -- SCH is a hassle to play for the lack of return you get.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

What annoys me is that it really isn't as hard as you'd think.

It is now, because SE went about the thing in all the wrong ways, and instead of just overhauling to fix the mistakes they made with jobs like SCH and PUP they'd rather make modifications that don't really change much. Most of what SCH is right now, RDM can pull off a lot easier. Scholar should have been a job completely different from WHM/BLM/RDM, and the problem is SE decided to go with making it a lot more complicated than it needed to be. SCH could have easilly just gotten all unique spells:

1~30 Tier I-II Helixes, Tier I Storms, Tier I-II buffs (Protect, Shell, Regen), Stoneskin, Phalanx, Invisible/Sneak/Deodorize
31~60 Tier III Helixes, Tier II Storms, Tier III-IV Buffs, Klimaform, Dispel, Regain (at 41, to be opposite RDM's Refresh)
60~90 Tier IV Helixes, Tier III Storms, Tier V Buffs, Regain II/Helix V as merits

Then you can fill in Cures and the Enmity controlling spells where you think they fit.

SCH could have been a complete unique and interesting class built around the "strategy" element of its back story, but instead they made it into a RDM clone that has to pop a bunch of JAs before it can do anything. The abilities are great, don't get me wrong, but seriously -- SCH is a hassle to play for the lack of return you get.

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first off id like to say there are a lot of posts that i agree with and fully support. id also like to go through the posts again a reread what everyone said so i can reply properly(car issues absorbing a lot of my time atm lol).

ok, to address the bolded text first. what i was referring to when i made the statement "itshard for sch to fit in", was a referral to currently right now.

and the rest of you post was on point too. if they built sch from the ground like you had outlined, then a lot of the problems we are having would not exist(maybe perhaps). we would have enough tools to keep us unique. though i doubt they would overhaul sch to that degree, i wouldnt object if they did. overall great post and thanks for the contribution.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

What annoys me is that it really isn't as hard as you'd think.

It is now, because SE went about the thing in all the wrong ways, and instead of just overhauling to fix the mistakes they made with jobs like SCH and PUP they'd rather make modifications that don't really change much. Most of what SCH is right now, RDM can pull off a lot easier. Scholar should have been a job completely different from WHM/BLM/RDM, and the problem is SE decided to go with making it a lot more complicated than it needed to be. SCH could have easilly just gotten all unique spells:

1~30 Tier I-II Helixes, Tier I Storms, Tier I-II buffs (Protect, Shell, Regen), Stoneskin, Phalanx, Invisible/Sneak/Deodorize
31~60 Tier III Helixes, Tier II Storms, Tier III-IV Buffs, Klimaform, Dispel, Regain (at 41, to be opposite RDM's Refresh)
60~90 Tier IV Helixes, Tier III Storms, Tier V Buffs, Regain II/Helix V as merits

Then you can fill in Cures and the Enmity controlling spells where you think they fit.

SCH could have been a complete unique and interesting class built around the "strategy" element of its back story, but instead they made it into a RDM clone that has to pop a bunch of JAs before it can do anything. The abilities are great, don't get me wrong, but seriously -- SCH is a hassle to play for the lack of return you get.

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I wrote a post about how SE has no clue in which direction they should take scholar. I've realized that it's because the job really lacked direction in the first place. Compared to BLU(which got a whole SECTION of magic dedicated to them, although it was necessary considering the nature of the job and their spells), SCH has a tiny list of magic that is unique to them. It's like they didn't know what to do to make scholar unique, other than making them a mage that uses a lot of job abilities to cast magic , kind of along the same idea as Dancer, which relies on JA's to buff, enfeeble, and heal in parties (all properties that were originally reserved mostly for magic users).

A great and much-needed fix for SCH would be to do what you proposed. SCH would have more of an established role as a strong DoT magic user (compared to weaksauce bio, dia, and helices, which are becoming less and less relevant as the level caps increase). I also think that it would strengthen SCH as a buffer(depending on what the benefits for the T2 and T3 storms would have). This wouldn't be stepping on BLM or RDM's toes, since the nature of the damage dealing and enhancing would be of a different nature.

Also, bringing up Abyssea, the fact that helices aren't used for procs is incredibly insulting. BLU is the 17th least-used job, putting it only one place above scholar, yet they are used for grellow procs. Why did scholar get left out in that? While it wouldn't really fix the job, it would have at least made SCH much more relevant (as opposed to not at all) in Abyssea.

To add on what I said: I would completely be happy with Scholar's lack of Cure V if they make it an amazing buffing job. RDM can buff well, but it can enfeeble better than any other job, and therefore would still have a major role. Making haste (which goes great with celerity and perpetuance), a native spell to sch, and making it Accession-able would be a dream come true. Adding spells like brave and faith as regular spells would be great steps in that direction alone. It would also go great with the military strategist theme. Buffing prior to a battle is an obvious, yet important aspect to any battle. I would be happy with replacing SCH's role as a (crappy) healer with that of a great buffer.

With the idea of Kaustra being a strong DoT nuke and Embrava being a strong, unique buff, I think the addition of the 2hr spells is a great embodiment of my vision for Scholar; however, SE is not showing any proof that they plan to make any considerable amount of progress in that direction.

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Originally Posted by Ninian

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, and I wanted to put it somewhere, but I feel SCH should get unique curing tools, not necessarily access to Cure V. For instance, a Helix-type cure--that is a cure that has an initial cure, then has a HoT ticking afterwards.

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mentioned it before but nobody liked it enough to comment lol

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Originally Posted by Judge

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mentioned it before but nobody liked it enough to comment lol

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i wouldnt feel too bad. some of the ideas ppl have are bound to pop up every now and again(great minds think alike etc.). so let this be know: if you do have an idea, feel free to repost or even post ideas that you think will contribute to this, or any topic.

Well "healing helix" is kind of an obvious idea, seen it a couple times, but so are a lot of things that SE seems to have ignored so there's not much we can do at this point.