dev1024 - healing magic

Sad to see that still no cure V for Scholar or Red Mage. This is a spell we could make great use of, please let us help cure our party members better.

level whm bro, or bring a whm friend

Yes, they said they were going to add something to help with this. I guess all those RDM complaining that there sword abilities where good enough ruined it for us. Though I won't complain about getting raise III and reraise III on SCH, I have had a scroll waiting for that since December.

We got Embrava though. I think it should be a normal spell to be honest. If you think about it, we Helix + Nuke for more damage, why not Embrava + Cure for more heals, we don't get any regen spells that are potent enough to follow our 'over time' aspect and our Adloquium spell isn't that great. Embrava as a potent Regen/Regain spell would make SCH more useful. I've always felt our DoTs were there to help us multi-task or to deal more damage on top of nukes. I've wanted to do the same with Regen, but in the higher levels it's not viable, in lower levels, I'd use a Regen to keep people happy and nuke a couple of times then repeat.

If Embrava is potent, then it's a shame it's a 2hr spell. But we shall see how useful these new additions are.

Given the proven potency of Klaustra, I feel Embrava will have a similar potency, providing high initial cure followed by a potent regen/regain effect + haste. My estimate is 50-100/tic regen, 5-10/tic regain, and your standard magic haste. I also expect this to be Accessionable much like its Dark Arts counterpart. Just a theory. I'm sure we'll be given plenty of opportunities to play with it.

@ DebbieGibson I have whm leveled but thats not the issue.

DNC and even a blue mage can achieve more HP cured than a rdm or a scholar who are supposed to be able to use both schools of magic (white and black) with good (not great) proficiency. Cure V will not eliminate then need/desire for whm either, at least not in my opinion. WHM is such a powerful healer, yet I never get to play on RDM on SCH anymore because poeple always want my whm. We get cure IV (SCH55 and RDM48) yet we go 40-47 levels without any more curing magic...

As far as Tabula Rasa Embrava curing goes, regardless of what it does, is not a viable main healing option. Maybe its just a rant, but I do know others are both opposed and for CURE V for other mages.

One solution/idea I have is to allow normal enmity rules for Cure V for rdm and sch, and allow whm to still have the same enmity gained from cure V and cure III. It just seems silly to have these rdm and sch, who are supposed to be a hybrid mages, unable to cast a basic spell to recover HP.

I think most SCH's are a bit disappointed with this update. I feel that now is a good time to throw out our suggestions to the Dev team once again. I know most of you out there are more creative than me when it comes to suggesting new ideas, but I will give it a go.

Cure V would be the easiest way to improve our healing aspect. It would also be the least creative and do nothing for helping establish SCH as a unique class. Our DOT spells are our most unique aspect and seem like the best way to go. The problem with DOT healing, however, is that if your tank takes huge damage you do not have the luxury of waiting 10 ticks to get his HP back up. In order to make this a viable route, we would need general buffs to all aspects of our Light Arts. I also think that a good balancing factor may be to make us proficient at single target healing, but not party-wide healing. This would allow WHM to maintain a distinct advantage. (And I don't just mean the Curaga spells. Being able to cycle between Cure V and VI(as inefficient as it is) allows WHM to heal multiple party members rapidly after a devastating AOE move.)

1) Healing Helix - Let's call it "Sanare." It would have to be more potent than Regen IV, but not so powerful that you cast it once and go afk. I think the idea should be for it to be used in conjunction with Cure IV. The only problem is that it would completely render the Regen spells useless, unless they were stackable.

The other option is to give SCH a Job Trait or Stance that improves the potency of all Regen type spells. I don't know how potent the dot needs to be to make this viable.

2) Improved Stratagem Usage
SCH has a lot of stratagems at its disposal that could help with our healing. The problem is that we don't have enough of them to rely on in a main healing situation AND it is too time consuming to have to use Rapture, Penury, Tranquility before each cure. Perhaps we could have a "sub-stance" or job ability that is available only in Light Arts. While under this effect, you receive 2 uses for each stratagem. So if you use Rapture, it will be applied to your next 2 cures, etc. There obviously needs to be a penalty, but the only thing I can think of is making Dark Arts inaccessible for a set period of time.

3) Improvement of Existing Spells
I am mainly referring to the Animus spells. If these spells actually worked, they would give us a way to handle the enmity issues of Cure IV. I would also add the storm spells to this list. If they were given additional effects, offensive or defensive, then it would help group kill faster or take less damage. Both would help lessen the curing load of the SCH.

4) Meriting Light Arts
Perhaps the next set of merits can include merits to Light (and Dark) Arts. For example, you could merit effects like enmity decay or casting time.

5) Gear
SCH is often excluded from a lot of the mage equipment. Adding the job to pieces like Roundel or having it be the second job on the WHM pieces instead of SMN could also be helpful. They've started doing this for BLM/SCH so hopefully they would be more open to doing this for white magic based pieces.

Also, it would be nice if we actually knew what our AF3 body does or perhaps have the enmity effect changed would also help.

What does everyone else think?

Honestly it is a disappointment to notice there are no new unique spells or abilities for SCH! Kaustra and embrava cannot be counted. We have these spells at our disposal only for about 90 seconds (post-update) every two hours. The rest of the time we can keep on being a semi-gimpy healer. Dark arts doesn't really need too much work but we certainly lack our NEW unique spells!

Where are they? Why does every other Mage job gain new utility spells but SCH doesn't? Do not misunderstand. It's great other mage jobs are getting new toys (myself being a Black Mage too).
But Tier II Storms, Tier II Helix would be a no-brainer and as a first tier of them is already existent, it just cannot be too hard to make them.

There were many good ideas post, I certainly liked the idea of fireback spells, a kind of "traps" laid out on the mob.
There is not even a buff to our existing unique spells and the level cap is being upped again and there isn't a single one for us!

I'd happily trade Embrava and Kaustra for usefull spells usable the rest of the 118,5 minutes! I'd forfeit raise and reraise3 too.

I think that, if they want to make us regen-type spells experts, we need REALLY powerful regens to begin with. Regen IV is 30/tick, well, if we aren't getting Cure V or something similar, we need a regen-type spell that does at least 80-100 per tick. And even then, it would take the spell a good 30 seconds minimum to heal somewhat close to a Cure V. A healing helix would be nice... If only for the fact that, if it's going to tick every 10 seconds, it should heal at least 500 HP per tick, something I doubt they will do.

I really hope they surprise me with a unique spell that makes us competent at main healing but inferior to WHMs, because I don't see an easy way.

What if they added a potent regen to cure3? So cure4 > Cure3 w/ regen, cure4 again?

Sounds like a dumb idea to me too, but maybe heading in the right direction?

There isn't really much of a substitute for just giving us a higher tier cure though.

You are not a whm, you will never be a whm, you were never meant to be a whm. If you want cure V, level whm.

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4) Meriting Light Arts
Perhaps the next set of merits can include merits to Light (and Dark) Arts. For example, you could merit effects like enmity decay or casting time.

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Would sure beat the hell out of meriting "grimoire recast"

You know a potent regen added to cures could be neat to, sch version of cureskin.. but that or a "healing helix" would have to be far and above any current "regen" spell I'd think.

Find it amazing how whm's get so butthurt over one spell, its as if they have no other tools and abilities that make them more useful than anyone else and everything hinges on it.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

You are not a whm, you will never be a whm, you were never meant to be a whm. If you want cure V, level whm.

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No matter how you turn it. there has been no new cure for SCH (lvl 55) or RDM (lvl 48) (or PLD lvl 55) for 40 level! And Cure 4 is SJable by any other Job. I don't even care about Cure V, but there has to be at least some tool, to improve the currently lacking ability to keep people alive accordingly. Take a look at how SCH main healed back in the days of a lvsl75 Vana'diel:

Who wants to be WHM? Back in the days SCH was a good healer because it was able to prevent DMG like almost no other job, which lessened the need of cure spammage. Stoneskin never uncapped after the level cap has been upped, neither was a second tier released.

I'd like to see tools to prevent dmg instead of curing all of it. That would fit much better to SCH. Make it possible for us to use rapture on it to enhance it so it absorbs 525 HP (+50% from rapture, +60% with emp+2 resulting in 560 HP absorbed)

Give us a spell that converts big incoming damage into DoT (strengh depending on total dmg it would have dealt?) instead, that can then be erased from the target through erase or any other new spell. Sounds overpowered? Just scale it correctly.

There could be many different approaches to give SCH more tools to keep people alive without stepping on WHMs toes.
Anything really but not just nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Good ideas

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I like your ideas as usual Sasaraixx. I'll support any Cure V alternative that works without being a reactive spamming of one spell, a la WHM.

1)I like your name for the healing helix the most! The concept is a little too abstract right now to know if it would turn out useful. I can see if you have 200+ HP ticking at the frequency of regen then you get essentially a Cure V result in the time it takes to cast Cure IV or a bit after. That may be enough.

My problem with this is it just seems so ordinary. I'm more a fan of SCH keeping a party alive by not having to cure at all, which was largely the case in old exp parties 40-75. I think they can do this by boosting Adloquium and Animus enough that we keep the attention on the tank ensured, and by introducing phalanx/stoneskin style damage mitigation alternatives like the Glyphs that Judge posted a while back. If Abyssea-style "balance" is kept, it may not be possible to make enmity and TP control matter anymore, though, so Sanare it is!

2) Sotek had mentioned something like this and I like it. Maybe a JA you use before strat that makes the strat last a period of time instead of wearing off with one spell, but during that time you can't switch arts?

3) very much in support of boosting storms and animus. For storms, I'd go with the Geomancy JA that increases the target's current weather to double weather and adds a bonus associated with the element (double attack for fire, critical hit for wind, etc.). Most importantly, I'd put the JA on a timer so we can maybe have it applied to one or two people at once, but not the whole party. I'd rather have this idea of trade-off than just replace all current tier 1 storms with a different tier 2 to cycle for everyone. Geomancy would be a nice merit ability where you can reduce the recast timer with upgrades, and would be a natural 99 extension of Stormsurge imo.

For Animus and Adloquium, I like the idea posted here of a party-target Modus Veritas ability that increased potency and decreased duration of tick based buffs. Again, make it so we can boost regen (or Sanare!), Adloquium etc. on maybe one or two people based on the recast.

5) Gear is where I don't think we need help. I often see Aurorastorm + Korin Obi + Twilight Cape left off of our cure potency considerations. With these, you can force light weather bonus to proc 100% of the time, and our current available cure potency stands at 59% (1.38 gear x 1.15 spell + cape + obi), which is higher than WHM can get due to gear cap being 50% and WHM not being able to rely on weather without a SCH main. I think this is why SCH was left off of Roundel and Facio.

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Originally Posted by Crossarius

Give us a spell that converts big incoming damage into DoT (strengh depending on total dmg it would have dealt?) instead, that can then be erased from the target through erase or any other new spell. Sounds overpowered? Just scale it correctly.

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I'm LOVING this. Have to think about it some more, but currently loving.

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2) Sotek had mentioned something like this and I like it. Maybe a JA you use before strat that makes the strat last a period of time instead of wearing off with one spell, but during that time you can't switch arts?

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I can see it working in two ways:
1. You use the JA and it is used up instead of Stratagems, with the spell still getting their effect, meaning they can last for two spells. This would possibly have balance issues, but it would mean you can use it, switch Arts, and apply new Stratagems.
2. You use it, then use a Stratagem and the effect is used up and the Stratagem wears off after two spells. This way it would only effect one Stratagem and you can't switch Arts after using the Stratagem (well you can, but it would be wasted).

I'm incline to go with 1. It sounds a bit unbalanced, but I don't really think it is. You're not going to spam a great deal of Stratagems on it regardless. I can see myself getting more use out of it too. Accession and Perpetuance would last for Protect V and Shell V, or Stoneskin and Phalanx for example. With Perpetuance in mind, I'd put it on a 5 minute timer. Perfect for buffing, great for nuking, absolutely fucking amazing for Immanence (in general) Five V + Thunder V > Ukko's Fury (when the time comes, that is).

If we did get something like this, I'd be even more puzzled at SE's choice of Tabula Rasa buff, though. Making it so Stratagems just don't wear off during it seems like a perfectly reasonable request considering the only Scholar NPC you fight in the game gets this exact effect. Then again, this is SE we're talking about. We just got an update notice with little else but 2Hr spells, when they've mentioned things like reducing the recast on Modus Veritas (I really don't have it in me to make a point about that anymore) and we've barked it at them to increase the range on Libra. Those two things don't take long to implement - certainly not the month we'll have to wait for a minor update if they're not in this one - so I see no reason not to have them done this update. They could have mentioned Sublimation too, unless I'm mistaken we should be getting an extra tic at Lv.95. Might be an issue with their new layout for Job Adjustment notices, though. I'm still used to getting two or three parts with actual details in them, rather than a single one just detailing new stuff. Then again they mentioned extending Tabulas effect, so who knows.

As for healing capabilities, I must say I've lost interest. I've seen it all from "You could handle -nas/Erase because our White Mage is shit and being lazy", "Running up and spending 12 seconds doing Phalanxga is more overpowered than spending 1 second to Cure an excessive amount of HP and give the target Stoneskin" to "Scholar can nuke as well so it shouldn't rival White Mage". Honestly, if so many people think FFXI should have just one job capable of main healing, I'm not going to argue. SE doesn't listen to reason. I've lost my patience trying to explain that Scholar simply cannot fill the role of Black Mage and White Mage at the same time. The most it can do is fill the role of Black Mage (ignore Stagger for a moment) and switch to White Mage if the need arises, the reverse simply isn't true so I don't get why White Mages try to make a point of it (and actually, the point of Afflatus Solace seems to be to let White Mage dish out some damage while healing so what the hell?), it's more perplexing given the fact that Black Mages have far more reason to complain about Scholar due to this fact, but don't; at least not en mass like White Mages.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Honestly, if so many people think FFXI should have just one job capable of main healing, I'm not going to argue.

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If it's any comfort, this argument is usually made by people who play White Mage in such a way that they think Cure V is the job's singular strong point.

Personally, I'd love to see at least Scholar gain some effective healing abilities beyond "Cure IV with all the fixins' and gravy". Cure V, Cure IV and 1/2 with Bonus Regen, Humpty Hump's Healing Helix; whatever.

If I had a second spell exactly like cure4 in every way (except different recast timer), I think that'd be pretty adequate for my purposes.

The biggest issue is having a second decent cure to spam on tanks.

I <3 SCHs. Looking at the different threads for wanting Cure V between RDM and SCH, SCH maybe be shorter, but is a lot more detailed and intellegently surefooted. While the RDM one is full of arguments and debating. I guess that is the difference between a job that is the grab bag of can do almost anything without trying and the job that can greatly excell, though only when putting one's mind to it.

I really hope SCH gets something that reflects its tactical intellegence. /Cheer SE, you can do it!

Giving other jobs Cure V itself currently would cause more problems then most people lend credit to it, at least for White Mage. Of course, there are people who don't recognize this because they hate the job. They claim that White Mages who don't support Cure V to other classes but instead support Scholar getting unique buffs are being lazy and not using their tools but requiring Scholar who are doing the majority of healing in a party to accession a few buffs are legendary heroes who shouldn't be considered in game balance, despite effective White Mages having to run up to the mob to do buffs that place the White Mage closer to the mob for longer. Then they count the White Mage having to risk its hide as reasons White Mage is more powerful then White Mage's most powerful spell, and count Cure VI as a mark of what a White Mage is, despite it not being the more efficient cure spell.

Anyways, enough ranting about players who are upset their job isn't White Mage. I'll get to someone with good ideas.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Healing Helix

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I think many people have suggested this idea. Mainly because it is good and fits the feel of Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

very much in support of boosting storms and animus. For storms, I'd go with the Geomancy JA that increases the target's current weather to double weather and adds a bonus associated with the element (double attack for fire, critical hit for wind, etc.).

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Somehow, this is the only way I can see Scholar getting double weather due to the consequences of Scholars getting it. Except, I see it being a job ability that would only work on other targets.

If SE thinks that double weather isn't straight overpowered for Scholar though, they might just get it. I have mixed feelings on the matter myself, since on one hand, weather effects are contenders for Scholar's single best unique buff that fits the flavor of the job, but on the other, a 30% bonus to spells is very powerful. I hope SE figures something out (or at worst, makes Scholars who 2hour get double weather spells), because I would like to see double weather, even if it isn't something that can be used often.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

Gear is where I don't think we need help. I often see Aurorastorm + Korin Obi + Twilight Cape left off of our cure potency considerations. With these, you can force light weather bonus to proc 100% of the time, and our current available cure potency stands at 59% (1.38 gear x 1.15 spell + cape + obi), which is higher than WHM can get due to gear cap being 50% and WHM not being able to rely on weather without a SCH main. I think this is why SCH was left off of Roundel and Facio.

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Most arguments about who has what cure spells pretty much ignore this (and any other points that might be against people getting Cure V). Either getting capped cure potency (Abyssea you can get this without even getting the two harder cure potency pieces) or double weather effects would put Scholar at a rate where they could effectively negate the very situational advantage of cureskin on all but the best geared White Mages. Capped cure potency plus double weather would just curb stomp any White Mage not being buffed by a Scholar (72% for capped + Aura, 79% for 38% + double Aura, and 95% for both capped and double Aura).

If I had to guess on the biggest reason Scholar doesn't get Cure V, this would be one of the first two guesses I'd put forth.

Of course, once Abyssea lowmans aren't what everyone on the forums is whining about, we'll probably see endgame content that has Scholar being the support backbone of most alliances. I much more enjoy discussion about what cool new toys all the mage classes get in larger parties rather then moaning about lowmans, since this happens to be an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Giving other jobs Cure V itself currently would cause more problems then most people lend credit to it, at least for White Mage. Of course, there are people who don't recognize this because they hate the job. They claim that White Mages who don't support Cure V to other classes but instead support Scholar getting unique buffs are being lazy and not using their tools but requiring Scholar who are doing the majority of healing in a party to accession a few buffs are legendary heroes who shouldn't be considered in game balance, despite effective White Mages having to run up to the mob to do buffs that place the White Mage closer to the mob for longer. Then they count the White Mage having to risk its hide as reasons White Mage is more powerful then White Mage's most powerful spell, and count Cure VI as a mark of what a White Mage is, despite it not being the more efficient cure spell.

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White Mage is my favorite job, and I'd be totally kosher with any job with healing magic recieving Cure V. I don't understand exactly what you're getting at with the huge sentence in the middle, since running in for four seconds to use a bar-spell or standing in range of a bat's truly lethal attack down to use Esuna has never made me feel threatened. It's very possible I'm missing your point there, though.

Cure V being far superior to Cure VI is a very valid point, though. As far as I can tell, Cure VI is going to be very MP inefficient all the way to 99 and probably forever. Still, having what's effectively another Cure V with a 100 MP penalty is very helpful in emergencies. It would be cool if Cure VI were adjusted somehow, but I doubt that will happen until it's confirmed that it still kind of sucks at 99. Maybe not even then.

It would be super-neat if every job with native healing magic received it's own way to deal with people losing more HP than Cure IV can handle, but I can't see how other jobs getting Cure V would render White Mage obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Most arguments about who has what cure spells pretty much ignore this (and any other points that might be against people getting Cure V). Either getting capped cure potency (Abyssea you can get this without even getting the two harder cure potency pieces) or double weather effects would put Scholar at a rate where they could effectively negate the very situational advantage of cureskin on all but the best geared White Mages. Capped cure potency plus double weather would just curb stomp any White Mage not being buffed by a Scholar (72% for capped + Aura, 79% for 38% + double Aura, and 95% for both capped and double Aura).

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So, assuming Scholar could somehow cast double weather and/or chose atma to lock themselves into a healing role for a fight, they could cure large amounts of HP?

I'm fine with this. Dealing damage in Abyssea is a joke and can be taken to absurd levels, why shouldn't healing be the same? And outside, a healing spell for 2k HP wouldn't be much better than a healing spell for 1k with 350 stoneskin, since an individual missing 2k HP needs Raise rather than a cure.

Maybe make it so that Cure V doesn't stack with Ascension, similar to Haste, since that would make it way too easy to heal entire alliances on either job.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

stuff

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Have you read my argument for Cure V? I've posted it enough, it really is quite annoying that seemingly no one has actually taken notice of it.

Remove the reduced enmity on Cure V/VI.
Give White Mage a Job Trait that covers that loss, carrying over to all Cures (potentially -agas, too).
Give Scholar Cure V.

Cure V on Scholar becomes a hate magnet, a spell that's just there because relying on Cure IV in dire circumstances is retarded. Outside Abyssea it would be what Cure VI is for White Mage, a spell that shouldn't even be cast unless, idk someone failed Stun and fast healing becomes more important than MP efficiency (with the obvious difference being White Mage still not having to worry about enmity). Mainly I've only wanted it for Abyssea because Scholar is very stretched there (to the degree where it might as well not even exist, but thats more due to Staggers), with my loss in interest in this being due to the fact that Abyssea is coming to a close. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to future events for now, but so far Voidwatch hasn't really displayed the need for an Alliance, so I'm not expecting it. People are still going to prefer White Mage because Cure V and VI offer a sense of comfort, White Mage has four healing spells where Scholar has two. Scholar should be able to rival White Mage, even if it's just a issue with perception, it's still an issue. I'm probably in disagreement with the rest of the Scholars, since really I just want a healing spell I'm hardly going to use, where as most want a spell they would use; which is why I must confess confusion at how giving Scholar better healing capabilities is a better option - in a White Mages opinion - than giving Scholar its own version of Cure VI.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Have you read my argument for Cure V? I've posted it enough, it really is quite annoying that seemingly no one has actually taken notice of it.

Remove the reduced enmity on Cure V/VI.
Give White Mage a Job Trait that covers that loss, carrying over to all Cures (potentially -agas, too).
Give Scholar Cure V.

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Actually the main scholar in my linkshell and I have this discussion all the time. We both think the perfect solution would be to remove the enmity down from Cure 5 and buff the heck out of Whm tranquil heart to compensate, while leaving RDM and SCH at t1 tranquil heart. It's such a great solution SE apparently can't think of it.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I don't understand exactly what you're getting at with the huge sentence in the middle, since running in for four seconds to use a bar-spell or standing in range of a bat's truly lethal attack down to use Esuna has never made me feel threatened. It's very possible I'm missing your point there, though.

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There are also Barailment, Auspice, and Boost-Stat spells, but the point is that it isn't spectacularly lethal, just as accessioning a spell shouldn't be either. It isn't special for White Mages nor Scholars to have to jump into the fray.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Cure V being far superior to Cure VI is a very valid point, though. As far as I can tell, Cure VI is going to be very MP inefficient all the way to 99 and probably forever.

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Between Abyssea and stuff like a Primeval Brew we can actually test what massive amounts of MND and VIT do to the spell. Unless 54 (my guess for the difference between now and 99) or so points of Healing Magic skill is better then 999 points of MND and VIT, we can tell the maximum amounts both can heal.

According to FFXI Calculator (v. 3.87) Cure V caps out at 810 (1215) and Cure VI at 1140 (1710). This means that Cure V gives 6(9) HP/MP, and Cure VI gives 5.02(7.53) HP/MP.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Still, having what's effectively another Cure V with a 100 MP penalty is very helpful in emergencies.

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Basically, but I don't think the spell is the magical equivalent to Cure V that many people seem to think it is. I might as well act like a Scholar can Rapture every cure.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

It would be super-neat if every job with native healing magic received it's own way to deal with people losing more HP than Cure IV can handle, but I can't see how other jobs getting Cure V would render White Mage obsolete.

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Scholar can already match a White Mage inside Abyssea for cure potency, and I think it would be foolish to assume they will never get more cure potency gear. People don't invite White Mage for slightly better magic damage reduction or slightly better Regen, and other jobs are better at Haste cycling and nobody cares if you have a slightly easier time removing debuffs with a White Mage.

Unless being able to boost a stat 10-15 points, remove Charm/Amnesia (Maybe remove Amnesia, since it is gonna be like Doom, but without the dying. And will Scholar get that? Because that makes more sense currently then Scholar getting Cure V at the moment - White Mage got Addle right?), and cast the weakest nukes in the game are game changing I don't see White Mage magically being useful in a party outside of curing. Maybe people will start demanding that White Mage hit things with a hammer?

It isn't that White Mage doesn't have tools aside from being able to cure, it is that the job is focused on curing and Cure V is the primary tool for that. I haven't encountered any fight where any other unique White Mage spell or ability has made it so White Mage has been chosen over others.

I don't think that Red Mage or Scholar - Scholar in particular since it has weather spells that make it much more likely to match White Mage - should get Cure V.

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All that said, a large argument that is stated by people is not just the demand for more healing, but a demand for a better healing spell then people who sub White Mage, or eventually, Red Mage. Considering that not one, but two jobs get Cure IV at sub levels, this complaint is fairly valid.

One way to fix this could be to add a tier between the current IV and V, and bump up the names on all the spells past IV. Thus the new spell would be Cure V (look! Scholar gets Cure V!) and Cure V would become Cure VI, and Cure VI could become Cure VII (or get removed, honestly, I don't think it would affect White Mage that much to see this disgrace of a spell get deleted).

The spell would cost something like 105 MP and have a roughly 4.9 HP/MP (between Cure IV and Cure V) potency from a decently geared 90 with no cure potency gear (~515 HP cured) and about a 7.4 HP/MP potency with 50% cure potency (~772 HP cured). It would never be as potent as Cure V, but would help bridge the gap. Job levels would be something like 51 WHM, 73 RDM, 83 PLD, 83 SCH (maybe add. white), which roughly match the trend SE has set for cure spells so far.

I think that this proposal would benefit everyone who has been asking for a bigger cure without stealing anyone's thunder. The spell would have normal enmity for a cure however - for PLD's benefit. This would mean that other jobs would have to rely on a mix of Tranquil Heart and enmity down spells. Fine tuning to this suggestion, of course, would be necessary.

Even if SE decided to add this spell, I still hope SE considers a decent healing helix spell for Scholar. It fits the job more then cure spamming.

I leaned on Esuna pretty hard in Einherjar and sometimes in CoP Dynamis, but I guess it's continued usefulness depends on which junk monsters appear in events from here on out.

Same goes for really solid magic damage mitigation, it really depends on what kind of monsters pop up. Against generic mages or something that uses a strong light or dark attack, the additional 5% from Shellra V alone is less than epic.

It is definitely true that many of White Mage's advantages depend on the kind of monster being fought.

I'm not suggesting Cure V for anybody with healing magic skill as a magic bullet. I just think it would be better, or no worse, than the healing scene is right now.

Giving Cure VI to non-White Mages with healing magic would also be a solution. I think the result would be similar to adding an extra cure, as far as MP efficiency goes. It would allow several jobs to cure huge amounts of HP for low amounts of enmity, but at the cost of twice the MP a White Mage would spend. Almost three times the cost, if you factor in Orison Pantaloons +2.

This would enable Red Mage or Scholar to take over the healing role in a pinch, but due to MP costs they wouldn't be able to cast much other than vanilla support spells. Essentially becoming the worst White Mage in all of Vana'Diel, but able to keep people alive.

I'd love to have more unique spells and abilities in the game, but I'm also weary of them. It seems that around a third turn out awful and useless and pointless. Humpty Hump's Healing Helix could be similar to Cure III with the soft cap and VIT modifier both removed every 10 seconds, or it could just end up as a concrete 200 HP every 10 seconds.

I get the feeling that there's a one guy on the development team who isn't so bright, but they all feel bad for him and let him work on a spell or ability sometimes. He's probably the dude who came up with the formula for Cure VI, actually.

Sorry if most of this is head nodding and agreeing, but I found your comment to be unusually agreeable, even if we have varied opinions about Cure V.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I leaned on Esuna pretty hard in Einherjar and sometimes in CoP Dynamis, but I guess it's continued usefulness depends on which junk monsters appear in events from here on out.

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Don't get me wrong, Esuna is probably what I'd list as the second most useful thing as a White Mage just after Cure V. Certainly makes your life a whole lot easier. Also makes me wish SE would buff Afflatus Misery so it would be more equal to Afflatus Solace in use, instead of primarily being "degimp Esuna".

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Same goes for really solid magic damage mitigation, it really depends on what kind of monsters pop up. Against generic mages or something that uses a strong light or dark attack, the additional 5% from Shellra V alone is less than epic.

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I can't wait until we get some Barlight and Bardark. No offense to Bards, but I see no reason a White Mage (and by extension, Red Mage) shouldn't have these.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Giving Cure VI to non-White Mages with healing magic would also be a solution. I think the result would be similar to adding an extra cure, as far as MP efficiency goes.

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This is another thing I thought about suggesting. Or rather, I was going to say "I'd be less offended if you were just asking for Cure VI" as a retort to Red Mages and Scholars asking for more cures.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

This would enable Red Mage or Scholar to take over the healing role in a pinch, but due to MP costs they wouldn't be able to cast much other than vanilla support spells. Essentially becoming the worst White Mage in all of Vana'Diel, but able to keep people alive.

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This reminds me of one time where I got careless and got caught by Amnesia after using Dark Arts. Its one thing to intentionally cast an occasional cure spell while using Dark Arts, but main healing with it because you can't change sucks.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I get the feeling that there's a one guy on the development team who isn't so bright, but they all feel bad for him and let him work on a spell or ability sometimes. He's probably the dude who came up with the formula for Cure VI, actually.

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I hope SE makes Cure VI what it should have been, somehow (I'd prefer an efficiency buff over a cost reduction, but I'd take anything at this point). Also, I'd really like classes that can heal to have a decent chance too.

Game balance is a difficult thing to do when dealing with 20 classes that have not just unique balance problems and individual look and feels, but also several secondary class roles. I really hope it all gets sorted out in a way that not only makes everything unique and useful, but also open to different play-styles within the classes themselves.

I'm sure being manaburn support only is about as interesting as only ever being a curebot.

The only thing whm does is cure. Sch has rapture, and rdm has a new ability that reduces the casting time to 0. Thats the solutions right there, I'd prefer SE reduce casting timer for cure 4 or give another spell to both rdm and sch that is essentially cure 4 with regen or something. Also, I was against dnc getting the high tier curing waltz, fyi, especially when it trashed other healing jobs on amount cured. Yes, blu gets basiclly cure 3.5 and 4.5, again i was against this and i love my blu. I did like the tranquil heart idea mentioned where whm gets higher tiers and sch and rdm only get first tier (if cure 5 goes to them). However, i would like to see a more job specific solutiuon to this problem rather than just, here's cure 5. The idea of rdm gettting to recast cure 4 faster or immediately and sch getting an aoe-regen helix spell isn't too bad if its not over powered (sch already gets rapture so i dont see the problem except the recast timer on cure 4, unless you cast cure 4 then rapture cure 3 for basically a second cure 4). Perhaps cure v4.1 as i said, where a small regen effect is added (but your basiclly using it to spam cure not for the regen but its there and justifies the slight increase in mp cost from a cure 4 differenc). like I said, sch gets rapture so really i feel rdm is the one that suffers. That said, it does seem odd that rdm, sch, and pld have recieved nothing past 50 level in the ways of cure. And fyi, im against whm getting addle, thats a rdm's spell/job.

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

The only thing whm does is cure. Sch has rapture, and rdm has a new ability that reduces the casting time to 0. Thats the solutions right there, I'd prefer SE reduce casting timer for cure 4 or give another spell to both rdm and sch that is essentially cure 4 with regen or something. Also, I was against dnc getting the high tier curing waltz, fyi, especially when it trashed other healing jobs on amount cured. Yes, blu gets basiclly cure 3.5 and 4.5, again i was against this and i love my blu. I did like the tranquil heart idea mentioned where whm gets higher tiers and sch and rdm only get first tier (if cure 5 goes to them). However, i would like to see a more job specific solutiuon to this problem rather than just, here's cure 5. The idea of rdm gettting to recast cure 4 faster or immediately and sch getting an aoe-regen helix spell isn't too bad if its not over powered (sch already gets rapture so i dont see the problem except the recast timer on cure 4, unless you cast cure 4 then rapture cure 3 for basically a second cure 4). Perhaps cure v4.1 as i said, where a small regen effect is added (but your basiclly using it to spam cure not for the regen but its there and justifies the slight increase in mp cost from a cure 4 differenc). like I said, sch gets rapture so really i feel rdm is the one that suffers. That said, it does seem odd that rdm, sch, and pld have recieved nothing past 50 level in the ways of cure. And fyi, im against whm getting addle, thats a rdm's spell/job.

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Dancer's highest Curing Waltz is worthless because of the universal Waltz recast, regardless of how high a number it puts in the chat log. Magic Fruit is more MP efficient than Cure IV but it's casting time can be awkward, with the casting time of Plenilune Embrace being even worse. Addle is so pointless that it could be given to every job in the game with no noticeable effect, but I guess I understand the sentiment.

I don't think you understand how often and quickly healing spells need to be cast since you mention job abilities over and over.

Have you considered expressing your concern for Final Fantasy XI by learning how it's mechanics work?

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Sorry if most of this is head nodding and agreeing, but I found your comment to be unusually agreeable, even if we have varied opinions about Cure V.

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Your posts actually make me consider the difference between the jobs and how much of a difference is needed to be meaningful, which is why I generally respond. I'm content to leave posts like "i am happi dat what mage iz still d onli 1 wid cure 5 it iz all we kan du!" well enough alone. I think less of a difference is needed for White Mage to remain unique, but we both seem to be using stuff that actually occurs in FFXI as a basis for our opinions so I see where you're coming from.

I'd love to see different jobs fill the healing role in different ways. It would be a big improvement over both how healing works now and how it worked at 75. Hopefully the guy who came up with the Zanshin changes is currently hard at work on it, with the evil genius who plotted Cure VI being far, far away.

As having both SCH and WHM at 90 there are a couple of things I'd like to point out that I'm sad to see that SE didn't continue as the progression of spells continues.

I was looking over the spell lists again between WHM and SCH and one question comes to mind. "Why hasn't Scholar's regen progression continued?"

Looking at the spell lists Scholar gets spells well after both WHM and BLM except for one, and that's regen. Scholar is the only job that gets it early. Regen at 18. Regen II at 37. Regen III at 83? Wait! Stop right there!

For comparison WHM gets Regen at 21, Regen II at 44, and Regen III at 66.

For all the complaints that SCH doesn't have Cure V which I'm not a fan of. I would present the suggestion that we restore SCH to being the Regen kings/queens. Keep the merits for Regen on whm and get rid of the regen + on sch gear.

My proposal is that Regen III goes to sch at 60, Regen IV at 80, and create a Regen V (or equal healing helix) and give scholar that spell at 95.

Regen IV currently at base restores 600 hp total and costs 82 mp to cast.
Regen V (or healing helix) I would propose at base restores 800 hp total and cost 100 mp to cast. Make it unable to be used with Accession.

With this I could see healing again even in aby made better cause I dare not take my SCH into it anymore.

Thoughts?

It would keep with the theme of the job, and probably be useful for activities like Dynamis where the long haul is more important than desperately scrabbling to keep people alive. The number is a little low, though.

An 800 HP Regen (40 a tick) would be just barely better than Regen IV with a Cleric's Briault and 5 Regen Merits. It would be a bit worse than Regen IV with Cleric's Briault, Regen Merits, and Orison Mitts. I actually took out my regen merits because I use the spell so rarely now in clutch situations, if that's any indication of how I think an even weaker regen than mine would fare.

If the base were 45 a tick, 50 with Savant's Mortarboard +2, and it could be used with Ascension and Perpetuance, then it would be awesome for old content and re-vamped Dynamis. Still lackluster for Abyssea and VoidWatch, but it's not like every spell in the book needs to useful against things that hit like trucks launched from outer space.

Not a bad idea at all, although your numbers were a little low. I can understand why you'd low-ball, since there's a big jump between Scholar's Regen III and White Mage's Regen IV.

Healing Helix (PhysioHelix?) would ideally work something like a normal Helix. I think Cure III, with both the soft cap and the VIT modifier removed, would produce something that felt like a Helix spell in terms of the effect of MND. This would give about 400 to 500 a tick depending on the Scholar's gear, which sounds right considering it's every 9 or 10 seconds. I'm less sure of these values than I usually am, so if anyone can correct me here, please do.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

If the base were 45 a tick, 50 with Savant's Mortarboard +2, and it could be used with Ascension and Perpetuance, then it would be awesome for old content and re-vamped Dynamis. Still lackluster for Abyssea and VoidWatch, but it's not like every spell in the book needs to useful against things that hit like trucks launched from outer space.

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I find those numbers would work out really well. The low ball was also to include the fact that Scholars are not White Mages. I fully understand this and accept this. Which is why I support that we shouldn't get Cure V but still this would help the healing situation some. This is far from a solution but a step in the right direction imo.

I like the idea of a helix like heal. My idea for it would be something like:

Paulatim Sanare: (To heal gradually; in latin): It heals the target for like 300ish and adds a buff that is separate from regen that heals like 40ish hp/tick over a minute, which will end up healing 800 hp.

Then allow the buff so that it can stack with other regen effects. While the spell's regen itself isn't the strongest, if you can stack it with other regen effects allows us to heal more over time then a single regen effect.

Another option could be to make the spell's helix regen heals a % of initially healed hp a tick rather then a flat amount.

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Originally Posted by Fadnog

Paulatim Sanare: (To heal gradually; in latin): It heals the target for like 300ish and adds a buff that is separate from regen that heals like 40ish hp/tick over a minute, which will end up healing 800 hp.

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I really like the concept and name as it keeps with other scholar abilities. Though I'd might want to make it a JA with a 5-10 min cooldown timer.

Revised as if a Job ability:
Paulatim Sanare: Your next healing spell will also apply a heal over time effect equal to the amount healed.

Formula for which would be:
(Amount healed)/20 So the amount healed would be restored over a min just like a regen spell.

With both giving SCH regen up to where we should be and this as a job ability I think that would bring a good buff to the light arts side of things.

I like the idea of it being a JA instead of a spell, as it will also allow us to heal the appropriate amount to the given situation without having to use more MP then we have too. I think this would work well as so long as its not made into a stratagem and its just a normal JA.

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Originally Posted by Parrow89

I was looking over the spell lists again between WHM and SCH and one question comes to mind. "Why hasn't Scholar's regen progression continued?"

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This is something that really didn't make sense to me either. Sure, you could argue that White Mage should have all the tiers too or something, but a big part of the "Scholar" concept is changing battlefield conditions, which should include DoT.

Bigger reliance on Regen spells would really help, especially since Scholar should be the "X over time" king.

Reading what everyone said here, I would prefer a potent healing helix over a job ability that makes a cure into a helix, unless of course, the job ability is a strat. But a helix spell would be better in the first place. It could even be more potent then what SpankWustler is suggesting depending on the recast timer. If the spell is a larger cure but always affected by weather, and has a fairly long recast, like 20-40 seconds, it could still work. Of course, a smaller cure would have to have a shorter recast, correspondingly.

On a somewhat unrelated note, inspired by this discussion, perhaps Scholar should get a job trait or spell that makes other jobs in the party affect it. For example, a Red Mage in the same party as a Scholar would make it so the Scholar could boost Fast Cast by 5% (or maybe Magic Accuracy) for everyone in the party. Or a Black Mage could do something with either Magic Attack or magical damage. Then again, this concept might not work well, plus it somewhat feels like Corsair's rolls getting a bonus depending on party members.

I like these last few suggestions for SCH. They would make it more unique, leaving the higher Cures for WHM but still giving something to SCH that is viable and in-tune with the job all unique. Only change I would make if Regen V were added would be to make it usable by Accession as that ability is something that makes certain buffs far more interesting on SCH than any other job.

Always felt like SE was going to make sch the regen king, and then realized they already gave whm regen merits/gear out the butt and said screw it.