dev1024 - healing magic

Sad to see that still no cure V for red mage or scholar

I'll second that

I'd rather have a unique RDM over going back to the pink mage days.

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I'd rather have a unique RDM over going back to the pink mage days.

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This.

Additionally they said they were trying to find more unique means of assisting curing and support rather than just giving higher tiers of cure around.

I agree with the OP. Party dont want redmage and scholar anymore bc of the lack of healing power. Even if our debuff is godlike, no one care :( i had to recycle myself in blackmage to enter seal's party and no i dont want to be whitemage. I like hybrid caster. We dont ask for cure VI we ask for cure V. think about it. We didnt received any new cure since level 48. Forget regeneration 2, we get it too late. And more now they give addle to whitemage... oh not like i care, this spell is useless by most standard. Raise 2??? what a joke. yes great we have another raise... that it.. no one care now of exp lost. No serious, we need CURE V now, not in 8 month at level 99.

Maybe a please can change something? PLEASE!! PLEASE!!

I'm thrilled that they didn't give sch or rdm cure V...back at 75 whm was all but obsolete because rdm and sch could match our cures and were so much better at mp efficiency, then they'd turn around and complain about only ever being asked to main heal parties....I can't even count how many rdm's complained to me about having to main heal meripos :P now we whms have a hold on the top of the healing hill with cure V and everyone else wants it...keep it whm only SE!

If Cure V is the only thing keeping White Mage at the top of the hill then the game has some serious design issues to work out.

not disagreeing there cid, but that's how it is....I for one would be thrilled for rdm and sch to be able to contribute to the healing scene...every other MMO has 3-4 healers easily, but each one brings something unique to the table that the others don't...that's what I'd like to see here, where sch and rdm would get their own unique brand of cures, not just a copy/paste of whm cure V and I think that's what SE is trying to work towards. Besides, SE already said that sch and rdm would not be getting cure V right now, and that they were looking into other options, so it really shouldn't have surprised anyone....

Well the other options generally consist of pre-emptive damage mitigation or healing over time, both of which White Mage has a stranglehold on at the moment. So unless SE is willing to radically alter that, I don't see there being any healing options other than White Mage as we make our way to the 99 cap. It's an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Doesn't necessarily have to be with Cure V, but that is the most easily recognizable solution to the problem.

Work with me here, how do you see things playing out if Cure V remains exclusive to WHM?

well, one thing that EQ2 did that I liked was reactive cures, where it worked like a buff, and everytime the target got hit, the buff healed them a little bit...sch/rdm could also take on aspects of a time mage, and master the heal over time spells...seeing how sch's thing is spell manipulation, they could also combine the lesser cures with something like a regen effect or something, I dunno...

could also take sch in the route of combat general, since the RP concept is a strategist and give 'em JA's that gave the entire pt a regen/regain/refresh, or give them JA's that were modeled after battle formations some how, to give the pt some kind of bonuses

Easy fix is to just rework cure formulas so healing skill has a bigger effect on potency

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Easy fix is to just rework cure formulas so healing skill has a bigger effect on potency

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It would have to be pretty severe for a smaller amount of difference.

RDM/SCH or anyone /sch alone starts off at a base B(-?) capped White Magic skill, then you can add cure skill gear that SCH and RDM both have decent amounts in, not to mention the cure potency amount accessible to them.

The problem doesn't lie necessarily in that sort of regulation, as much as it is the vast imbalance between DD/Melee jobs and cure/support jobs. Meaning those support jobs get shoved into the smallest number of slots possible no matter what. If you make RDM or scholar a competent healer on top of whatever else they offer, then WHM ceases to become worthwhile, because curing is the BULK of what they offer, where as RDM and Scholar have their respective nukes buffs and debuffs to fall back on or assist additionally on top of being the designated cure bi-... bot.

If they're not, and the focus is instead placed on making sure their unique contributions are viable enough to possibly bump a DD off the roster depending on what's available, then their healing could be brought up to a decent enough level where it does not outshine what they're supposed to offer as a whole, yet can support or take over LIGHT loads.

However, as it stands now, SCH and RDM can still handle light curing loads, so there's no need for Cure V. And if their contributions help mitigate overall damage, it'll likely stay that way. And in questionable situations, it allows for jobs like Dancers and Blue Mages to shine in their support aspects.

So really there's not much of a strong argument for giving out the spell, except for the desire to bump WHM off the throne as the go-to healer.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So really there's not much of a strong argument for giving out the spell, except for the desire to bump WHM off the throne as the go-to healer.

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The problem isn't that it's the go-to healer, the problem is that it's the only healer.

Raise II, still no Cure V, then give us back our convert for RDM only!!!!!!!

This is the problem:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

However, as it stands now, WAR/WHM can still handle light curing loads, so there's no need for Cure V. And if their contributions help mitigate overall damage, it'll likely stay that way. And in questionable situations, it allows for jobs like Dancers and Blue Mages to shine in their support aspects.

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Stack some MP on a war/whm, and he has the same tools that red mages and scholars have for healing. When SE states that they're trying to make all jobs viable for end game, but they end up making one job completely irreplaceable (whm), and another job a juggernaut (blm), how are red mages and scholars supposed to compete for end game party slots? Right now you may bring a single red mage per alliance if the monster isn't immune to enfeebles, but scholars have to compete with specialists when they focus on healing or nuking because they get incrementally worse as they swap between the two.

What. (letters)

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

The problem isn't that it's the go-to healer, the problem is that it's the only healer.

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Only SOLO healer.

Cure loads can be manged by multiple mages/jobs of varying types who have cure capacities.

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Stack some MP on a war/whm...

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And you wonder why I ask for buffs in the melee and buffing department? In light curing load situations RDM offers little to the table, buffs in both of these aspects would correct that easily.

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Right now you may bring a single red mage per alliance if the monster isn't immune to enfeebles, but scholars have to compete with specialists when they focus on healing or nuking because they get incrementally worse as they swap between the two.

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Scholar already seems to be getting a better line of unique spells, particularly in the 2hr department. Not only do I expect our enfeebling game to improve for more difficult monsters, and that Scholar get a more unique set of spells to assit with, that's part of my flat out demands in them filling the order they put out with the Manifesto.

Honestly, I have the same policy for us main healing, as people do for Red Mages melee. When it matters, you're not supposed to be the one doing it over a specalist. Only difference is, because you CAN do it safely, you can help out. But I would expect the main role of a RDM would be to support with buffs and enfeeble, tossing out back up cures, status cures, and nukes when available to do so.

But there's no reason to expect RDM to solo heal difficult situations. Either split the duty or invite a WHM and have us support it. We have a specialty and we should be doing that, it just needs to be improved upon.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Cure loads can be manged by multiple mages/jobs of varying types who have cure capacities.

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Or you could drop all the dead weight, get a whm, bard, and a few DD's and kill twice as many NM's in the same amount of time.

I haven't played anything but white mage when I go out with my LS in over a month simply because it's the backbone of everything end game right now. Once you have a white mage and a few solid DD's you can fill the rest of your alliance with scrubs and window lickers and still be effective.

I support the OP. Right now, RDM is dead as far as abyssea is concerned. Not just second choice, but dead. Tripple-atma powered WHM is all the support that's needed for most situations, and if it isn't enough, then you take two of them. But there is no situation that calls for RDM anymore.

The idea that giving RDM Cure V would de-throne WHM as the most desired and principal choice for healer is just not plausible. Lack of cureskin and cure potency gear would make RDM Cure V gimped compared to WHM cure V. And RDM wouldn't have Cure VI in case a tank requires an urgent, large cure right after you've already cast Cure V.

Rdm gets 46% cure potency max, that's not really that lacking, Smn and Whm are the only two that can cap it iirc, 4% from cap isn't really that bad. I could care less if the job is 'dead' in Abyssea, you act as if Rdm is the only job excluded there.

Most career RDM's would prefer a big HoT (Heal over Time) vs Cure V. I'd suggestion something in the 50~100+hp/tick (based on enhancing magic) with a duration of 30s. Would generate the same static hate as Cure V and accomplish much the same without resorting to cure bot status. Give it to SCH also.

Also for your WHM's out there, make it so that your cures have a chance to proc an erase / esuna effect (randomly remove one detrimental status ailment). This would be similar to now, how your status ailments have a chance to proc aoe.

That would make everyone happy, keep WHM as the supreme healer while allowing RDM and SCH to contribute more but not steal the role.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Also for your WHM's out there, make it so that your cures have a chance to proc an erase / esuna effect (randomly remove one detrimental status ailment). This would be similar to now, how your status ailments have a chance to proc aoe.

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Oooooh i like this idea!

I think a temporary HP spell would be good for RDM, like an over-heal. Similar to how shields work in League of Legends, for those that play. Doesn't necessarily have to heal for a large amount, could be similar to Cure IV, but it's a unique effect. That way we wouldn't be outdoing WHM but would still bring something new and useful to the table.

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Most career RDM's would prefer a big HoT (Heal over Time) vs Cure V. I'd suggestion something in the 50~100+hp/tick (based on enhancing magic) with a duration of 30s. Would generate the same static hate as Cure V and accomplish much the same without resorting to cure bot status. Give it to SCH also.

Also for your WHM's out there, make it so that your cures have a chance to proc an erase / esuna effect (randomly remove one detrimental status ailment). This would be similar to now, how your status ailments have a chance to proc aoe.

That would make everyone happy, keep WHM as the supreme healer while allowing RDM and SCH to contribute more but not steal the role.

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God, this so much. I am so tired of all the QQing for Cure 5 today, it's not funny.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea.

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I don't understand where this idea started. Yes, there was a time when White Mage was only particularly useful for certain fights and competent healers were mostly interchangeable.

Some dude at SE noticed this, some changes were made, and henceforth White Mage has had a powerful Stoneskin attached to it's cures and many new tools to battle status ailments. On top of that, there are pieces of the Orison set which give White Mage huge bonuses to cure spells.

White Mage isn't the same job it was in 2005, and that's not even getting into how much harder any NM that matters can hit now.

It wouldn't soften my healing protuberance one bit if Red Mage and Scholar and Paladin and whatever else had access to Cure V, and I really have to wonder what most people do on White Mage since this is such a common statement.

That said, something like Cure 4 and 1/2 with a strong Regen effect would be much more suited to how Scholar and Red Mage work and their lore. I'm sure people who play those jobs would prefer that solution as well. The idea that giving other jobs Cure V would break White Mage somehow is way off, though.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

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ITT: Only good thing about WHM is cure5.

If WHM sucks so bad, why don't you play SCH or RDM?


.....see what I did there?

You know, now that you mention it. Since White Mages are clearly taking Cureskin for granted. (Let's face it. Most were complaining about Cure V breaking White Mage if given to another job.) Then take it away from White Mage and give it to Red Mage and hell even Scholar. Then you can keep your high tier Cures. Cause let's face it. You want to have both but eventually you're going to lose one or the other. So I'd suggest you choose and enjoy both before either is given to another job.

On top of that, claiming Cure V if given to another job would make it less efficient would leave White Mage in the back burner is ridiculous and preposterous in every meaning of those two words. You still have Cureskin, which if you ask me is still better than say a Red Mage with Cure V or Scholar. (Because of the small damage mitigation that you get from it, allowing you to take more hits in the end.) Where as just a simple Cure V or even any other Cure wouldn't offer such a thing. Then again, I suppose it's a White Mage's world and we're all just living in it. Get off your high horse, White Mage could only be replaced by another White Mage. 2005 was a different story, this is 2011. Where even your rings have cure potency only available to White mage. (Okay, not really exaggerating) So to claim that something as simple as a Cure V could make you as useless as Bubbleman is pointless. Try again with another valid argument. Such as if your protectra/shellra/barspells/haste were revoked. Then perhaps you'd have something valid. However as it stands with Cureskin and whatever tier Cure you decide to use it will still grant damage mitigation (depending on the cure mind you, and even if it's a cure one, it still grants some sort of damage mitigation even if it's by a small amount.) Again something that's not accessible to other jobs.

However, the high Regen based on enhancing skill does sound like a rather nice one. However, I fear that if we were to get that. White mages everywhere would QQ and SE would hand it to them on a silver platter. (Speaking of handing things to WHM's.) 'The hell are you doing with our Addle? In fact 'the hell are you doing with Regen family? It's enhancing, not healing, as well as our paralyze, our slow, as well as our other goodies?


Meanwhile in a more logical perspective. ^ This is how I react to people who think Red Mage/Scholar would break them if they were to get Cure V. Throwing out weird accusations as if it were still 2005, if that's the case then tell me why is it that warriors now sub /sam as opposed to /nin. Like they use to? I can't stress this enough. Times have changed, get use to it.

Also, next Abysea White Mage I meet that hastes instead of cures. I'm going to punch in the mouth.
(Done it before, and I'll do it again.)

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

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The thing that amuses me the most about this quote is that my linkshell almost always needed me to come white mage to events pre-abyssea, unless they were in dire need of sleepga II. As far as I can remember white mages have always been needed in end game fights, with the occasional exception of low man HNM's that a high evasion tank and some major enfeebling could handle. Even in those situations white mages were still wanted because it gave the evasion tank some breathing room on hate.

The only thing white mages weren't used for was meriting, and that only lasted until /sch hit the scene.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

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They didn't improve our enfeebling/buffing ability we got 0 enfeebles, whm gained one of our enfeebles and we got 1 useless buff. It won't be active with accession and it will be self target only... RDM basically got 15 minutes of fun and then back to the black list.

I can tell you right now that my rdm will never cure as effectivly as my whm I have 50% potency with cureskin body among other things. Alone that is >>> than a 40% potency with no cureskin that my rdm will get. Average DD is easily running upwards of 1600 hp these days and cure IV just does not cut it, even for back line support... period.

Dumb WHM curebots thinking Cure V is the only thing keeping their job alive.

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm? Rdm and sch both have access to much better mp conservation tools and both can deal with buffs. Also, se has clearly stated they are adjusting enfeebling magic. Rdm's should focus on coming up with more ways to improve on their enfeebling instead of trying to one up WHM. IMO.

You really have no clue do you?

That is not an answer to my question but good try. :)

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm? Rdm and sch both have access to much better mp conservation tools and both can deal with buffs. Also, se has clearly stated they are adjusting enfeebling magic. Rdm's should focus on coming up with more ways to improve on their enfeebling instead of trying to one up WHM. IMO.

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Dumb post is dumb.

it's not dumb it's how it was before, that's what scares us whms...rdms and schs had decent cures at 75 and we whms went the way of the buffalo because we couldn't keep up with mp....we now have a good hold on the cure situation, and we like it like that. Plus I remember countless rdms and schs coming to me pissed because all they got asked to do in pt's is main heal even though there were decent whms looking for pt's....instead of pushing for a copy/paste of whm's stuff, try pushing for more unique stuff for sch and rdm....like a healing helix or a reactive cure, where every time the target gets hit, the buff heals him for...I dunno...100 hp?

Besides, since when is curing all that sch and rdm have wanted to be good at anyway?

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Originally Posted by Zatias

Dumb WHM curebots thinking Cure V is the only thing keeping their job alive.

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Try to read between the lines and see some of us saying "good riddance" at not being #1 on the list of healers to call on.

That being said, no, Cure V is not necessary. I'd be more for a HoT before Cure V would ever be in consideration.

I had a long post to type up but I kinda scratched it. Outside of abyssea, Cure V isn't even needed. Inside abyssea.... so what if no one is picking RDM over WHM for the healing spot? Last I heard, RDM HATED being asked to main heal or even back up support. Plus, RDM do not have full light magic proc (or black magic for that matter). It's honestly one of those things where I really want to say suck it up and join the club of 'inferior jobs' for many activities that has been going on for years.

RDM and SCH were never supposed to be as good or better at their respective jobs than the originators. While giving Cure V to both of those classes and it ending WHM is debatable, in all it isn't necessary and would put them very close to WHM in a Curing only capacity. RDM was designed for Enfeebles/Enchancing and melee support as a main stay. The heals and nukes were there to assist in cases where the party needed a little extra healing and the nukes for when melee might not be the best option. But the player base screams at the idea of a RDM doing anything outside of refresh/haste/cure.

SCH was more the magey of the hybrids, it was designed to support all the mage classes, but still hold its own in casting....and it can.

If anything both of those classes should be calling for more unique spells instead of asking for ones in game already. An extra HoT or reactive cure as mention before for RDM sounds amazing and useful: it would give them something that is their own and allow for more support. SCH has tons of options for making its cures and buffs more powerful via stratagems and helix spells. adding and higher tier Cure to it won't make it more unique....just another healer. Don't you want a more unique and dynamic role?

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm? Rdm and sch both have access to much better mp conservation tools and both can deal with buffs. Also, se has clearly stated they are adjusting enfeebling magic. Rdm's should focus on coming up with more ways to improve on their enfeebling instead of trying to one up WHM. IMO.

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Orison Pantaloons +2. I can Curaga IV until the bluffalos come home and still have full MP. On top of that, I can get Sublimation/Light Arts/Conserve MP or the inferior Refresh/Convert from subjobs. Banishga III and Hexa Strike pretty much solidifies my spot in any Abyssea party worth mentioning.

Do you know how frustrating it is to spam Cure III and Cure IV back to back as fast as you can and barely keep your target out of the orange? It used to be WHM > SCH > RDM > SMN as far as healers went. Now it's WHM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SCH > RDM or SMN. The only thing keeping SCH ahead of RDM and SMN is Rapture and Aurorastorm, and SCH has always been kept in check by the amount of enmity they generate (Rapture+Cure IV followed up by some tier5s? SCH is going to be tanking). SMN at least offers Earthen Armor and Crimson Inferno, which are light years ahead of buffs like Phalanx, Enspells, or lolAdloquium.