Samurai Meriting

Would love some suggestions for how to properly merit a Samurai. Any help/builds would be appreciated.

Traditional merit scheme:
Group 1 -
5/5 Store TP
5/5 Meditate

Group 2 -
5/5 Overwhelm
1/5 Shikikoyo
4/5 Blade Bash

With recent changes to Hasso and Zanshin, there are other merit builds that focus on capping Zanshin rate and Ikishoten. Haven't done much with it myself, but there's some info on BG and I think in some threads here.

with the recent addition of hassanshin (hasso induced forced zanshin attacks) ikishoten merits have some value now, currently if i land both attacks on a hassanshin proc i stand to gain around 64 tp on my masamune with ws tp return (16.9 iirc?) makes for an occasional 3 hit build.

Group 1 -
5/5 Store TP
5/5 Meditate

Group 2 -
5/5 Overwhelm
x/5 Ikishoten

not saying you should or even have to but its an interesting alternative. (x is dependent on base delay of the GKT you use) would then spend at least 1 in Shikikyo and blade bash if you have enough merits left over.

Merit according to how you like to play.

Merit according to how you play is the best to describe it seeing how it's your membership, yes.
But, if you want some tips, Store TP and Overwhelm is the best to 5/5 just for the general output.
Now for myself I did
5/5 Store TP
5/5 Zanshin
5/5 overwhelm
1/5 shikikiyo
3/5 Ikishoten
and I still haven't decided to the last into Blade Bash or 4/5 Ikis.
Now I was a SAM for a while but I didn't put much thought or merits b4 the new update, only had 5/5 store tp and 5/5 overwhelm then focused on other jobs so that's why I have it on zanshin/Ikis and I do have to say... TP comes in quick enough that a couple times I was able to self WS w/out Meditate or a premature Sekka (yes, it has happened a few times ._.).
Mind you, it was a rare lucky streak but still blew my mind away.

5 STP.
5 Meditate.
5 Shikikiyo.
5 Blade Bash.

But I never sam to kill stuff, that's what my friend is for. There's a reason why I play around in +75eva. lol

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Originally Posted by Tatts

But, if you want some tips
5/5 Zanshin

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I have a tip for you - Meditate is better.

Anyone who recommends 0/5 Overwhelm should be immediately ignored.

I currently have 5/5 Store TP, Meditate, Overwhelm, and 4/5 Ikishoten, 1/5 Blade Bash.

I use a five-hit build for my Masamune, and 4 Ikishoten merits are required to shave a hit off of the build with a Hassanshin proc. If I used a 6-hit build, I might drop a few Store TP merits for Zanshin rate merits. Then again I might not. It's pretty hard to say which is better at this point.

Before the SAM adjustments, I had 4/5 Blade Bash, 1/5 Shikikoyo, and no Ikishoten merits.

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Originally Posted by Dirtyfinger

I have a tip for you - Meditate is better.

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Well well well, aren't we the little Faux news reporter. Misquotation is bad juju. Clearly what "Tips" I recommended was Store TP and Overwhelm. After that, I just simply showed what I put in and hell, it works fine for me.

Having Meditate down by 30 seconds is nice, but it wasn't for me. I get it, 30 seconds can turn the tide but w/ Iki(tab) merits I felt it was a better investment because its always active. I love always active stuff: Rapid shot, Subtle Blow, DA, Enchainment, etc.
Anyways, rambling.
Point is, I use Zanshin merits for the off chance I do miss (SAM tends to be more blind than a <insert current pop reference here>) and I get that ~50% chance of attacking again, plus with the introduction of Hassanshin, having more Zanshin coupled with DA (either through gear or /war) means that you'll be attacking twice a lot.
That's my story and i'm sticking to it.

Pre update my merits were 5/5 Store TP and 5/5 Meditate recast. They were key aspects of the job. Group two i had 5/5 Overwhelm, 3/5 Shikikoyo, 1/5 Blade Bash and 1/5 Ikishoten. I hardly ever used shikikoyo or blade bash. and i felt since i miss sometimes, why not throw a merit in ikishoten.

My merits now(post update) are 5/5 Store Store tp and 5/5 Zanshin Attack rate. Group two is 5/5 Overwhelm and 4-5/5 Ikishoten because i have to put a merit into blade bash before Voidwatch. The change in my merits is because with 5/5 Zanshin attack rate (+5% added to zanshin attack rate) along with Native Zanshin attack rate (45%) Katana Grip, Ace's Mufflers, Unkai Sugemino, Unkai Mimikazari, and Unkai Domaru +2, i have 73-74% Zanshin attack rate. Since Zanshin activates while Hasso is active, It REEEEEEEEALLY shows. I get 110 tp in two attack rounds a lot.

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Originally Posted by Ryozen

Anyone who recommends 0/5 Overwhelm should be immediately ignored.

I currently have 5/5 Store TP, Meditate, Overwhelm, and 4/5 Ikishoten, 1/5 Blade Bash.

I use a five-hit build for my Masamune, and 4 Ikishoten merits are required to shave a hit off of the build with a Hassanshin proc. If I used a 6-hit build, I might drop a few Store TP merits for Zanshin rate merits. Then again I might not. It's pretty hard to say which is better at this point.

Before the SAM adjustments, I had 4/5 Blade Bash, 1/5 Shikikoyo, and no Ikishoten merits.

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100% this.

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Originally Posted by Ryozen

Anyone who recommends 0/5 Overwhelm should be immediately ignored.

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I have 0/5 overwhelm. But I'm sure you can figure why if you read when I have merited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tatts

Well well well, aren't we the little Faux news reporter. Misquotation is bad juju. Clearly what "Tips" I recommended was Store TP and Overwhelm. After that, I just simply showed what I put in and hell, it works fine for me.

Having Meditate down by 30 seconds is nice, but it wasn't for me. I get it, 30 seconds can turn the tide but w/ Iki(tab) merits I felt it was a better investment because its always active. I love always active stuff: Rapid shot, Subtle Blow, DA, Enchainment, etc.
Anyways, rambling.
Point is, I use Zanshin merits for the off chance I do miss (SAM tends to be more blind than a <insert current pop reference here>) and I get that ~50% chance of attacking again, plus with the introduction of Hassanshin, having more Zanshin coupled with DA (either through gear or /war) means that you'll be attacking twice a lot.
That's my story and i'm sticking to it.

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zanshin rate merit is very low for hassanshin (5/5 merit is 1.25%)
for merit i went 4/5 overwhelm/ikishoten 1/5 BB/shiki (5th overwhelm is only2%, imo this lost is <the occasional use of the 2ja)

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Originally Posted by hiko

zanshin rate merit is very low for hassanshin (5/5 merit is 1.25%)
for merit i went 4/5 overwhelm/ikishoten 1/5 BB/shiki (5th overwhelm is only2%, imo this lost is <the occasional use of the 2ja)

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5/5 Zanshin merits = 5% more ZAR. but yea, i suggest you put in that 5th one to overwhelm. the last one is 2% but it all adds up. 1 str is just 1 str until its added with 80 other "1 str"s

5/5 Zanshin may mean 5% more Zanshin, but it doesn't mean 5% for Hassanshin.

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Originally Posted by DarkBass

5/5 Zanshin merits = 5% more ZAR. but yea, i suggest you put in that 5th one to overwhelm. the last one is 2% but it all adds up. 1 str is just 1 str until its added with 80 other "1 str"s

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zanshin hasso rate have been parsed to be about 1/4 of your zanshin base rate (see ryozen post in the zanshin thread)

With use of Masamune my current merits are as follows:

Group 1:

Store TP 5/5
Meditate recast 5/5

Group 2:

Overwhelm 5/5
Ikishoten 5/5

I am proud to say I dislike sharing my TP with other people in exchange for even quicker TP gain upon Zanshin proc. :D

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I am proud to say I dislike sharing my TP with other people in exchange for even quicker TP gain upon Zanshin proc.

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I share your sentiment. And also why i cleaned out my meditate merits and put them in zanshin attack rate. with zanshin activating on hasso hits and all the enhances zanshin gear that all the sams were complaining about pre update, it felt like a waste of merits to leave them in meditate recast.

I spose you don't WS at 100tp? (or always try to).

1-2% Hassanshin doesn't really seem worth adding another 30 seconds to my Meditate recast.

there is some merit in ws'n in over TP as it adds to y/g/k and fudo FTP mod's and it'd be hard to make a comparitive quantification for hassashin vs meditate, in the realm of mission fights and boss type battles though i find lower meditate recast to be more valuable, that is to say from a utility stand point.

as far as hassanshin goes i personally stand to gain over 48 extra per strike with full ikishoten merits, 43 @ 4/5, but a 1.??% increase to that would likely be negligible, much like double attack and crit rate zanshin rate + is going to have diminished returns.

It really comes down to personal choice. No right or wrong way to go when it comes to meriting zanshin attack rate or meditate recast. So far im more pleased with my change in merits since i get tp so fast anyway that i hardly use meditate. and when i do, the extra 30 seconds is not an issue because ill have tp again anyway or i've built 300 tp before a boss fight and the 30 second wait for the 2nd meditate also isn't anything detrimental.

Mind blown.

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Originally Posted by Dirtyfinger

Mind blown.

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My sentiments exactly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hiko

zanshin rate merit is very low for hassanshin (5/5 merit is 1.25%)
for merit i went 4/5 overwhelm/ikishoten 1/5 BB/shiki (5th overwhelm is only2%, imo this lost is <the occasional use of the 2ja)

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Unless your job is SATA whoring, not doing 5/5 Overwhelm is sort of silly. Nearly every piece of gear with >=2%WSDMG is the best piece of gear for that slot unless trying to cap dDEX (Not relevant for SAM).

In which case, if you are an SATA whore, Meditate recast is better anyway for Group1

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Originally Posted by DarkBass

It really comes down to personal choice. No right or wrong way to go when it comes to meriting zanshin attack rate or meditate recast.

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This is true enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkBass

So far im more pleased with my change in merits since i get tp so fast anyway that i hardly use meditate. and when i do, the extra 30 seconds is not an issue because ill have tp again anyway or i've built 300 tp before a boss fight and the 30 second wait for the 2nd meditate also isn't anything detrimental.

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This, however, is not very good reasoning. The decision should be based on whether or not you're engaging monsters a large enough percentage of the time for 1.25% extra attacks to out-perform 30 seconds off of meditate.

Other factors could include how often you have Hasso up and the typical amount of Haste you can expect, but time spent engaged on Samurai is the big determinant for most folks.

That wasn't my reasoning, my reasoning was since i hardly use meditate, im not using it back to back to where the 30 seconds id save matters. For me it was a waste of merits since i could put it into something more useful for me. Im always using hasso, and even when im using seigan i get a nice boost in counters. Its halfway like perfect counter for me with my all the zanshin gear i have.

This was when procs were figured out so herpderp:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1042/herpaderpr.png

But nah dawg your opinion is valid.

Lol of course its valid. Its a statement of personal preference to meriting a job i've been playing for years. That would be funny to bring up if we were discussing the specifics of voidwatch. I'm certainly not the person to talk to about all the specifics of it. But people are sometimes mistaken about new content. So yes...herpderp...

Except you were talking about using Blue!! to proc KI's in Abyssea at a point in time that the proc system was discovered, known, and utilized by the masses.

This was info i had saw a couple of my leads in my old shell say. and since we got all 3 procs on just about everything i fought i didnt discern my misinformation until later. I actually talked with myrrh shortly after that SS was taken and told him that i found out i was wrong, but there is no SS of that lol. But i digress, not the point of this forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkBass

Pre update my merits were 5/5 Store TP and 5/5 Meditate recast. They were key aspects of the job. Group two i had 5/5 Overwhelm, 3/5 Shikikoyo, 1/5 Blade Bash and 1/5 Ikishoten. I hardly ever used shikikoyo or blade bash. and i felt since i miss sometimes, why not throw a merit in ikishoten.

My merits now(post update) are 5/5 Store Store tp and 5/5 Zanshin Attack rate. Group two is 5/5 Overwhelm and 4-5/5 Ikishoten because i have to put a merit into blade bash before Voidwatch. The change in my merits is because with 5/5 Zanshin attack rate (+5% added to zanshin attack rate) along with Native Zanshin attack rate (45%) Katana Grip, Ace's Mufflers, Unkai Sugemino, Unkai Mimikazari, and Unkai Domaru +2, i have 73-74% Zanshin attack rate. Since Zanshin activates while Hasso is active, It REEEEEEEEALLY shows. I get 110 tp in two attack rounds a lot.

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Kinda on the right page, but Hasso Zanshin is 1/4 of your zanshin rate, so 74% Zanshin is an 18% (SE likes to round down) chance of a hasso zanshin proc. Merits on SAM right now are very up in the air. You can 6hit a Masamune with 0 merits in STP and stack zanshin/DA gear. Which is probably best for high haste situations. The definites are 4/5+ Iki and 5/5 Overwelm. If you always ride your Med timer then Med merits are nice. (most people don't in my experience) If 5/5 Zanshin gains you 2% more Hasso Zanshin procs its pretty damn potent but thats not always the case.

For any SAM my advice is to cap Haste (26 visible) then fine tune your Xhit then focus on HassoZanshin/DA.

This is great advice. But as far as a haste build its not so cut and dry. my setup has me at a 22% haste and 5 hit build. i can get to a 25% hit build, but id lose my 6 hit and two good pieces of zanshin gear. I cant say for sure if the 25% 6 hit build with less zanshin on hasso procs is better than 22% 5 hit build with more zanshin procs. both are definately good though.

Its possible to 5 hit 24% haste but you lose out on being able to stack zanshin gear, well save for swaping pole for rose to counter ace mitts either way losing out on 1.xx% haste to knock it down to a 5 hit for masa in my opinion is better, the point is to ws as often as possible and sc when ever with whoever ne? least thats how i see sam.

Agree with ya 100%^^

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Originally Posted by Nala

Its possible to 5 hit 24% haste but you lose out on being able to stack zanshin gear, well save for swaping pole for rose to counter ace mitts either way losing out on 1.xx% haste to knock it down to a 5 hit for masa in my opinion is better, the point is to ws as often as possible and sc when ever with whoever ne? least thats how i see sam.

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Depends on your buffs. With marches you are better off capping haste and 6hitting then 5hitting at 24%. Since its possible to cap haste and 5hit with masa there isn't an excuse not to.

I'll run some numbers later at various haste levels.


Edit ran the numbers:

With just Hasso or Hasso+Haste 5hit

Masa/Rose//Whitetath
AF3/af3/af3/brutal
af3/dusk+1/raja/hoard
atheling/bullwhip/af3/aces

Was winning with a 5hit

With Hasso+Haste+Marches

Masa/sword//threw
zelus/justice/af3/brutal
af3/dusk+1/raja/mars
atheling/bullwhip/af3/aces

Was winning with a 6hit

All were extremely close.

i tend to favor relying on my gear as im usually not in a caped haste situation.

bit unsure on how the game rounds delay/haste but lets take a look.

Hasso w/unkai pants hasso bonus:

5-hit: 23.4 seconds to 100%
6-hit: 26.8

Add haste spell:

5-hit: 17.9
6-hit: 20.4

+ 2x marches

5-hit: 10
6-hit: 11.3

i used an assumed 7.3 second delay per swing for a 5 hit with march (capped values) your at 72.5% haste possibly a little less due to how bonk gear% and true haste is in any case only way i can think of to get any more haste at this point is haste samba which I've rarely found myself in a situation where i have all the planets align like that, so assuming i am dead on or slightly over 24% haste with all magic buffs on i still got a 6-hit build by 1.3 seconds assumed.

one more time no rounding:

5-hit: 10.014583
6-hit: 11.236

edited to reflect 424 delay due to sword strap 6 hit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nala

i tend to favor relying on my gear as im usually not in a caped haste situation.

bit unsure on how the game rounds delay/haste but lets take a look.

Hasso w/unkai pants hasso bonus:

5-hit: 23.4 seconds to 100%
6-hit: 27.6

Add haste spell:

5-hit: 17.9
6-hit: 21

+ 2x marches

5-hit: 10
6-hit: 11.6

i used an assumed 7.3 second delay per swing for a 5 hit with march (capped values) your at 72.5% haste possibly a little less due to how bonk gear% and true haste is in any case only way i can think of to get any more haste at this point is haste samba which I've rarely found myself in a situation where i have all the planets align like that, so assuming i am dead on or slightly over 24% haste with all magic buffs on i still got a 6-hit build by 1.6 seconds assumed.

one more time no rounding:

5-hit: 10.014583
6-hit: 11.5805

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6hit uses a sword strap, with more att/acc and you are forgetting the 120 second WS delay which favors 6hit over 5hit. Masamune has solid white damage also DA and Zanshin procs all favor the 6hit.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

I have 0/5 overwhelm. But I'm sure you can figure why if you read when I have merited.

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Absolutely, but I doubt "I have no idea what I'm doing with this job and don't realize there are probably a half dozen jobs out there actually designed to do whatever inscrutable thing it is I'm trying to accomplish with SAM" is what you mean.

hmm if i did the math right (3% from sword strap = 424 rounded up delay base tp 10.8 gain), assuming ws'n in brutal and raja's you only need +17 stp to achieve 6 hit, and would only require 3 ikishoten merits to achieve 5 hit hassanshin.

in anycase please go easy on me for asking but what do you mean 120 second delay and solid white dammage?

Edit: will amend my last post to reflect the sword strap, late now sleepy time /sigh