So, Fafnir

My linkshell has now pooled resources for a few KS99 Wyrm -> Fafnir runs, and out of the runs we've done, we have gone

2/17 on Wyrm Beard
0/17 on Speed Belt

followed by

3/17 on N.head
1/17 on Nidhogg (no Beard)
0/17 on Ridill

and all the one Nidhogg dropped was a.body.

So our collective haul for 1,700 Kindred's Seals (even worse if you add on the other three KS->Fafnirs I've personally done, so technically you can consider this out of 2,000 Kindred's Seals) is 3 N.Heads, an A.body, and two Wyrm Beards.

It's rather disheartening to see that even, what, 7 year? old content is still thoroughly screwed up to obtain, even with Abyssea's dev team at the helm of this update, and that an old trophy piece that lost its "best weapon" status when the cap hit 80 has gone from being difficult to insane to obtain... very much not worth the seals.

I know this topic's been done many times before, but really SE, are you guys listening at all? This is simply too much. There's rarity, and then there's "Lol congrats on wasting your seals"... considering the time investment the game strictly enforces on obtaining seals at all, let alone in quantity, this is far beyond draconian.


edit, addendum: Every kill was with at least TH9, many with TH10. TH levels that were beyond unreachable before, and yet the drop rates are STILL lower than before?

Don't do it then? Or do einherjar, as you say though it's outdated content

Well, we're trying to get people in our LS Beards mainly. We were just hoping to, you know, get something other than complete trash in the process, but it seems that's all you can realistically hope for at this point - trash and more trash.

The difficulty of obtaining black belt would be so much more palatable if you could at least get some cool filler/trophy pieces in the process of pissing your seals into the wind. At this point it's basically a total crapshoot - and out of the three, this is the one with the best loot pool. :\

Considering E body is currently the best TP piece for WAR, I'm quite displeased about the drop rate of Nidhogg pops.

I don't mind that the Faf's that I've done have dropped complete crap (Only gotten A hands, which is a Genbu drop). I don't care. N Head sucks anyway when you can use Twilight Helm. But the fact that the chances to get E body from HNM is like 3% per NINETY NINE KS (which through extension would be 297 of any other type of seal), that very much so bothers me since I would like to try Behemoth too.

"QQ GO DO ODIN" I would, but all the Einherjar groups I've been with have been filled with idealistic gimps. Not to mention the only thing anyone wants is E body, considering it's the only useful thing from Einherjar unless your building Mythics (with the few situational exceptions like Valhalla Helm), or simply making tatters.

In the end I'm going to end up buying E body ABJ for ~10mil and then burn another 25mil for Cursed Hauberk -1. Just to make that much gil is like 20 days of work. Not a huge deal, but I would like to be able to do other things than farm until the 95 cap comes out and allllllllll that effort goes to complete waste.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

In the end I'm going to end up buying E body ABJ for ~10mil and then burn another 25mil for Cursed Hauberk -1. Just to make that much gil is like 20 days of work. Not a huge deal, but I would like to be able to do other things than farm until the 95 cap comes out and allllllllll that effort goes to complete waste.

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you farming the baby jesus or something?

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Originally Posted by Xellith

you farming the baby jesus or something?

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35mil would be more like 12 days, about 8 hours per day but...

Really not enjoyable when icefilms is down...

I'm sure the devs are banking on us trading in kindred crests for kindred seals to make everything even out in the end. I like how they lower BB drop rates or outright take them away, and don't raise the rates on the other drops for a restrictive KSNM > Force pop system, but implement a lol 3 for 1 exchange rate which is a punishment system for not targeting mobs specifically to farm seals/crests and could have gotten away with just one option - kindred crest in exchange for kindred seals. We can thank everyone who wanted these HNM handed to us on a silver platter. They got what they wanted except now you better have the best luck ever or no drops at all for you after your seals run dry.

Good going. Things were more accessible than ever since all the botter LSs left for Abyssea but nope, it wasn't enough. I blame myself and others like me. We weren't vocal enough to provide counter arguments before the deed was set in stone. We should have made our own threads instead of relying on SE to spot our comments in a haystack. Comments that made sense. Botting was dead and everyone that was blocked from them for 8 years could finally farm them for whatever worth they had left. A few dozen or so people doomed the entire playerbase to this KSNM system. But oh well. What's done is done. KSNM ruins a good thing yet again. What else is new? I'm actually kind of surprised they even touched the HNM. Like leave them as is but move the BB drops to KSNM. Ya know, they could have just done that. Oh, wait. They did do that. Why did they make this change again? I don't get it. Abyssea did what they couldn't: Fix HNM. So naturally they move the system to force pop but require you to go through the KSNM versions first. Yep. After 8 years and few people still caring to kill them but never could til now.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Considering E body is currently the best TP piece for WAR, I'm quite displeased about the drop rate of Nidhogg pops.

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Radiant Mail paired with Fazheluo Helm +1 should beat tiara/armadaberk, but considering the rarity of those items you would probably get Armada Hauberk easier.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

Radiant Mail paired with Fazheluo Helm +1 should beat tiara/armadaberk, but considering the rarity of those items you would probably get Armada Hauberk easier.

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Won't that kill a 6-hit build unless you swap to something like Tactical Mantle (ewww)? Assuming you are talking about Fazheluo Radiant Mail where the sTP +6 is the sphere effect, i.e. it doesn't affect the wearer.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Won't that kill a 6-hit build unless you swap to something like Tactical Mantle (ewww)? Assuming you are talking about Fazheluo Radiant Mail where the sTP +6 is the sphere effect, i.e. it doesn't affect the wearer.

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Moonshade Earring with regain will maintain 6-hit.

5 hits are hard to get now?

I don't know about normal Great Axes, but a 5-hit is impractical for my Ukon.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

Moonshade Earring with regain will maintain 6-hit.

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Meh, I should work on my WotG missions... Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

5 hits are hard to get now?

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I believe the conclusion is that the stats sacrifices to your tp gear to make a 5-hit build with Ukon just isn't worth it.

@ OP

So, Black Belt is outdated content huh?

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

@ OP

So, Black Belt is outdated content huh?

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No, the stuff you have to drag yourself through to GET it is outdated content. Derr

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

Radiant Mail paired with Fazheluo Helm +1 should beat tiara/armadaberk, but considering the rarity of those items you would probably get Armada Hauberk easier.

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Nitpicking. Yeah the Fazheluo combo is better but it's really impractical. The HQ helm has been listed on Asura twice, and without it the set is only good for Restraint down, since you'd NEED Perle hands on at all times to cap haste.

This is completely besides the point, since I could use the same example for N legs, which are still very good since w/ HQ you can get Crit+4%, which should make Ukko's Fury 100% Crit in Abyssea w/o the use of Zahak's Mail.

Still ABJs are too difficult to get with the KS99 -> NQ -> 5% Chance of HQ system.

I love how this went from a drop rate to which gear is better ;P

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Still ABJs are too difficult to get with the KS99 -> NQ -> 5% Chance of HQ system.

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Einherjar would like to have a word with you. . . .

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-king-triggers

In case anyone missed it.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Einherjar would like to have a word with you. . . .

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Shut up.

Did I say ABJs were too hard to get with the Einherjar system? No. Are they? They can be if you're unlucky.

Still if you take away the ABJs from HQ HNMs... you only really have trash lvl 75 gear and then a single BB item, which any of your 489589 bandwagon MNKs will want.

Yeah, Fafnir is a jerk, it rips me apart that I have to be related to the guy.

i did a 99ksnm recently and our group took 7 nq pops out and we returned with 0/7 hq pops. While im pleased that the drop rate remains challenging, im amazed at how past challenging we are on the drop rates. Especially since kindred seals are not pouring in theses days because they get crowded out by kindred crests or high kindred crests. Perhaps an exchange rate of 2:1 for seals would be fair, where high kindred crests redeem for 2 kindred crest, for 4 kindred seals, for 8 beastman seals, etc; instead of the trade any 3 for 1 seal idea which honestly doesnt get used. Im not asking for a defender's ring 24/7 or even the hq pop 25%, but drop rate increase would be ideal (dont get me started on all the other unbalace and this can't get fixed? why not just give away coins in WOE with auto-reraise after 30 seconds or give pup an ability that lets them recall their pet almost 24/7.....oh that's already been done, thanks for the balance and challenge. If you can't bring a reraise item with you to WOE go home.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

I believe the conclusion is that the stats sacrifices to your tp gear to make a 5-hit build with Ukon just isn't worth it.

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I still get 25% haste with enough STP to get 20~21 TP per hit, and I only lose, what, 4 STR/DEX and 22 attack per hit. I know that 22 attack is what, ~17 damage per hit, but being able to WS faster makes up for it. I really like my 5 hit, played with it somewhat last night, and didn't notice the missing damage that much. I think that losing ~80 damage per WS is better than losing 1 WS out of 5 from having to add a hit. When I get my Moonshade Earring and add Regain on it, I will be really close to a 4 hit (not quite making it, but still). Kindof wish that they added STP as a possibilty.

On a side note, the slow effect on Ukko's Fury, I noticed it to be very potent. Anyone know the slow % yet?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I still get 25% haste with enough STP to get 20~21 TP per hit, and I only lose, what, 4 STR/DEX and 22 attack per hit. I know that 22 attack is what, ~17 damage per hit, but being able to WS faster makes up for it. I really like my 5 hit, played with it somewhat last night, and didn't notice the missing damage that much. I think that losing ~80 damage per WS is better than losing 1 WS out of 5 from having to add a hit. When I get my Moonshade Earring and add Regain on it, I will be really close to a 4 hit (not quite making it, but still). Kindof wish that they added STP as a possibilty.

On a side note, the slow effect on Ukko's Fury, I noticed it to be very potent. Anyone know the slow % yet?

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When you 5-hit Ukon, you sacrifice more than just haste. You lose Double Attack as well as the other stats you mentioned. With a high rate of double attack you are more than likely going to have TP overflow, which is going to make a 5-hit less effective than a 6-hit.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

When you 5-hit Ukon, you sacrifice more than just haste. You lose Double Attack as well as the other stats you mentioned. With a high rate of double attack you are more than likely going to have TP overflow, which is going to make a 5-hit less effective than a 6-hit.

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I lost, what, .4% haste? Double Attack, I lost 3% from Atheling Mantle and 2% from Ravager's Gorget. 2% from Pole Grip too if you want to add that in there. I still got ~26% Double Attack from merits/gear still, that is still 1/4th of the time. Instead of 1/3 of the time. I still think that, over time, with Retaliation up, I will do more damage with my current gear than with my old gear.

TP overflow doesn't really increase damage though, except from the extra hit.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I lost, what, .4% haste? Double Attack, I lost 3% from Atheling Mantle and 2% from Ravager's Gorget. 2% from Pole Grip too if you want to add that in there. I still got ~26% Double Attack from merits/gear still, that is still 1/4th of the time. Instead of 1/3 of the time. I still think that, over time, with Retaliation up, I will do more damage with my current gear than with my old gear.

TP overflow doesn't really increase damage though, except from the extra hit.

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With decent Haste buffs the 6hit will win. Its been mathed out many times. Ukon has excellent white damage and you are forgetting the 120 delay attached to each WS.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

With decent Haste buffs the 6hit will win. Its been mathed out many times. Ukon has excellent white damage and you are forgetting the 120 delay attached to each WS.

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Except we can always expect 80% haste buffs 100% of the time, right?

Even on a lowman situation?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Except we can always expect 80% haste buffs 100% of the time, right?

Even on a lowman situation?

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All it takes is Haste and Hasso. With marches the 6hit will murder the 5hit. You are greatly underestimating haste,DA,att and WS delays effect on DPS.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

All it takes is Haste and Hasso. With marches the 6hit will murder the 5hit. You are greatly underestimating haste,DA,att and WS delays effect on DPS.

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Actually, I think you are underestimating WS damage.

I have .4% less haste than cap. 25% haste with a 5 hit is not hard to get.

Attack and Double Attack, I'll agree with you though, they are very important, but still, they take a back seat for a reduction of hits between WSs. The damage output by Ukko's Fury is outstanding.

Besides, didn't the maths also state that over time, given that all other things are equal, a 5 hit with a reduction of attack and double attack will still win out over a 6 hit with a minimal increase of Double Attack and Attack?

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Originally Posted by Taint2

All it takes is Haste and Hasso. With marches the 6hit will murder the 5hit. You are greatly underestimating haste,DA,att and WS delays effect on DPS.

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Honestly from his posts he's thick headed Taint i wouldn't even bother trying to explain the benefits of 6 hit ukon to him he won't take it in.

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Originally Posted by uptempo

Honestly from his posts he's thick headed Taint i wouldn't even bother trying to explain the benefits of 6 hit ukon to him he won't take it in.

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Really productive post there, you know.

I'm not thick, I do take suggestions to heart. But I need to question why this setup is better than that, I do that all the time, and I'm surprised you don't do the same. I am not a cookie cutter player, I actually think for myself. I suggest you do the same.

With a party and getting all those buffs from support jobs, a 6 hit will outshine. Solo your 5 hit build should be better. Dispute ended. As far as fafnir, our ls 11 fafnirs.got 4 hq pops. no ridills, but got 2 e.bodies, 2 beards, 2 n heads. th11 each time.

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Originally Posted by DarkBass

With a party and getting all those buffs from support jobs, a 6 hit will outshine. Solo your 5 hit build should be better. Dispute ended.

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Got proof? I seen math that supports both arguments.

5hit Haste/Hasso
-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 7631 8749

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 15% 15%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 49% 50%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 244.58 242.69
Total Dly 1197 1189

DPS 382.404 441.481
Avg DPS: 424.939

5hit Haste/Hasso/Marches(+2)

-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 7631 8749

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 37% 37%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 71% 72%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 139.14 137.26
Total Dly 733 725

DPS 624.733 724.449
Avg DPS: 696.529


6hit hasso/haste

-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 8896 9920

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 15% 15%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 50% 50%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 242.69 242.69
Total Dly 1328 1328

DPS 402.021 448.292
Avg DPS: 435.336


6hit hasso/haste/marches(+2)

-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 8896 9920

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 37% 37%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 72% 72%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 137.26 137.26
Total Dly 803 803

DPS 664.696 741.200
Avg DPS: 719.779

WSs don't exist?

We aren't talking about Myrkr-type damage, we are talking about Ukko's Fury....

What is the DPS if you include WSs too?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

WSs don't exist?

We aren't talking about Myrkr-type damage, we are talking about Ukko's Fury....

What is the DPS if you include WSs too?

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yes.....its a DPS calculator lol

Honestly, don't ask questions if you don't want to accept the answer.

Somehow, I don't believe that calculator. It doesn't show anywhere there about WSs at all >.>

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Somehow, I don't believe that calculator. It doesn't show anywhere there about WSs at all >.>

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Happy, heres the math on your 5hit, yes all the above calculations included WS LOL

Melee WS
Stat -Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber -Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Skill 384 384 377 377
Acc 365 365 359 359
Att 392 392 385 385
Str 169 169 203 212
Vit 133 133
Dex 184 184 180 173
Base Att 560 560 595 594
Base Acc 540 540 537 525
Food Att 138 138 146 146
Food Acc 0 0 0 0
Chaos 0 0 0 0
Berserk 140 148
Stalwart's (att) 0 0 0 0
Aggressor 0 0
Stalwart's (acc) 0 0 0 0
Att 698 838 741 888
Acc 540 540 537 525
DA 20% 20% 24% 24%
TA 15% 15% 15% 15%
Dex Crit 20% 20% 20% 20%
Total Crit 55% 55% 61% 61%
Store TP 38 38 5 6
Raw Hit Rate 133.5% 133.5% 132.0% 126.0%
Hit Rate 95.0% 95.0% 95.0% 95.0%
cRatio 1.4966 1.8669 1.6103 1.9000
fStr 20 20 22 22
Swing Dmg 151 151 153 153
Crit Dmg 175% 175% 178% 178%
Avg Swing 603.896 706.590
Avg Round 843.340 986.753
Avg # Rnds 4.405 4.405
Melee Dmg 3715 4346
Base Wpn Dmg 153 153
WS Dmg 3916 4467

-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 7631 8813

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 37% 37%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 71% 71%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 139.14 139.14
Total Dly 733 733

DPS 624.733 721.544
Avg DPS: 694.437

Went down 2 points because the zerk up gear set was missing 1stp.