BLM and Cure

Hi, I was asked on the SMN forum to ask BLMs if you should cure yourself in a dire situation.

He probably wanted me to ask if you should cure yourself all the time, which I'm sure we all know the answer to that one, but I want to know, if you are dying and the WHM is too busy, would you cast Cure on yourself (Drain timer is down, so you can't rely on that) to save yourself, or would you be cussing out the WHM for not curing you when you die?

I didn't say dire. Let me state my side as well then.

The argument we were having was over the concept of playing events like Einherjar and having the SMN cure the BLM. My claim was that curing BLMs causes my avatar to attack sleeping mobs. His counter argument was that I should never be that high on the hate list because they can do it themselves.

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But still, don't cure the person who slept the mob. They can cure themselves. You shouldn't be on the hate list at all for all the slept mobs, nor should you be back-seat curing people who can cure themselves (BLMs have no excuse, they can Drain mobs being fought at the very least).

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I claim that asking a BLM to cure themselves that much, especially when trying to manage hate, keep mobs slept, and assist in DDing, is insane when a SMN who is only sitting with favor out can use their MP instead.

Don't forget that you want SMN to main heal the BLMs so your situation would work. Having an avatar out, main heal the BLMs, and ask why SE won't get rid of the auto-attack when SMN is on top of the hate list.

I said that if the BLM needs to be cured, the BLM can cure themselves. Why a SMN should feel the need to cure the BLMs is beyond me.

Because SMN is a SUPPORT JOB. Again, I'll list the things that make not curing inexcusable.

A. SMN has a huge MP pool. The largest MP pool in the game.
B. When using an avatar under favor, especially Diabolos, MP is not an issue. I get something like 5 refresh per tic with my gear under Diabolos favor, so it is VERY hard for me to run out of MP.
C. When using avatar's favor, the point is to NOT attack. If you attack, the favor buff resets.
D. More often than not, the WHMs are focused on keeping the tanks and DD alive. BLM are the secondary goal.
E. BLM have to constantly keep their enmity in check. If they don't, it's next to impossible to pull hate off of them in an emergency. Curing adds hate.

If you are in a party with BLM in an event, and you are being expected to give them refresh, not curing them is inexcusable and a sign of a bad SMN.

And in regards to auto attack, I said that my avatar shouldn't be attacking slept mobs unless I tell it to. That's a very simple AI fix.

Way to derail a thread Tar, maybe you should have taken that to the other thread.

I'll do that for you.

Derailed nothing.

As a BLM and a SMN, yes, I believe BLMs and SMNs shouldn't be above using cure on themselves or anyone else if the situation demands it. However, if I'm spamming sleeps, taking AoE/magic/melee damage because I am unable to get out of range, and trying to keep buffs on, then yes, I DO expect someone else to help me stay alive. Notice I said "help", because if I'm not doing anything to help myself stay alive, then I deserve to die. If I'm not buffing, not curing, not draining, just standing there nuking my heart out, and I pull hate and start dying or die, it's no one's fault but my own. I should have been managing my hate better.

I've been in that Einherjar situation. Spamming sleeps on resistant mobs, slept mobs waking up and bashing my face, and I was grateful for every cure I got regardless of who cast it. We did have problems sometimes with an avatar waking mobs up, but it wasn't really any different than noob DD's attacking the wrong mob.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

I claim that asking a BLM to cure themselves that much, especially when trying to manage hate, keep mobs slept, and assist in DDing, is insane when a SMN who is only sitting with favor out can use their MP instead.

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Yep, that pretty much sums it up. If the SMN wants to escape cure assistance, they better be subbing COR and giving me evokers roll on top of that diabolos refresh. I'd rather have a few moments of interrupted diabolos refresh because the SMN had to put avatar up because it was attacking than die because the SMN was to selfish/lazy to put their avatar up for a little while.

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Originally Posted by Quedari

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. If the SMN wants to escape cure assistance, they better be subbing COR and giving me evokers roll on top of that diabolos refresh. I'd rather have a few moments of interrupted diabolos refresh because the SMN had to put avatar up because it was attacking than die because the SMN was to selfish/lazy to put their avatar up for a little while.

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Its not escaping cure assistance, its the fact that the SMN in question (Tarage) thinks that he should main heal the BLMs, and wants the avatars to lose the best thing that they have for soloists, the ability to automatically attack a mob when the summoner is on top of the hate list. He also stated that a BLM should never cure themselves, because that is the SMN's role.

You two are still going at it? lol And on the BLM forum?

Tarage never said to get rid of auto attack all together. I think he just said he wanted a command to make the avatar "Stay." I have no idea if he said a BLM should never cure themselves. That's just silly.

I'm of the notion that while we do have dedicated healers in a party, there are times when you might have to pitch in and you should. I think Quedari summoned it up perfectly. Of course you are not there to main heal the BLMs but there may be times when you have to toss out a few cures to help them out. You may need to toss your WHM a heal sometimes because of a hate reset move. This game is so situational.

as a white mage main, I think it's a good idea for anyone with cures and time to use them in an einherjar or similar situation cure themselves....we whms have a lot of other stuff to focus on in those places, so any curing assistance at all is a blessing

BLM and SMN are not healers. They do not have the magic skill for it. I would even go so far as to say without propper set up, RDM isn't either. That being said, I keep myself alive if I have to, but it's such a waste of MP I don't like doing it and won't for others in the PT. You want a healer, get a healer. Don't ask me to waste my MP.

And the people agree with me. I'd say I'm shocked but really, I'm not. I've been doing this for years and I know how this game works.

Honestly, I have all these mage jobs. I don't care how "inefficient" it is for me to cast cure as long as the group benefits. RDM is a perfectly acceptable backup healer in some instances, and even an ok main healer for a few things. When I'm on BLU if I need a cure and the WHM is busy curing the tank(s), I have no problem curing myself and helping cure my party members. I'm no use to my group if I'm dead or weak all the time because I was too uptight to cure myself. I never consider it a waste to keep myself alive however necessary

BLM/BRD says "cure please" ^^

And to any SMN who claims they shouldn't cast Cure, I say why do SMNs have access to the 50% cure cap then? 600 HP Cure IV is inefficient? And SMN have an ability already to stop their avatar from attacking a sleeping mob... it's called 'release'

In most situations curing yourself is trouble. Enimty gain is ridicolous sometimes. Even in dire situations, you'd probably should opt for stun, sleep or bind and running away.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

BLM/BRD says "cure please" ^^

And to any SMN who claims they shouldn't cast Cure, I say why do SMNs have access to the 50% cure cap then? 600 HP Cure IV is inefficient? And SMN have an ability already to stop their avatar from attacking a sleeping mob... it's called 'release'

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And then we lose the favor. It's not an instant on/off switch dude. If we have to release and then resummon, the benefit has to build from scratch, defeating the purpose.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

And then we lose the favor. It's not an instant on/off switch dude. If we have to release and then resummon, the benefit has to build from scratch, defeating the purpose.

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But sometimes it just has to be done.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

But sometimes it just has to be done.

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But adding a simple 'stay' command, or at least make it so Avatars don't seek out sleeping mobs would fix this.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

But adding a simple 'stay' command, or at least make it so Avatars don't seek out sleeping mobs would fix this.

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It would, but I'm a realist.

.......... I main blm, and I "expect" My whm's to Not cure me, They'd even get a nice little Butt Reaming if they did, for no absolutely neccessary reason. (that reason only being , if i'm obviously getting stomped on, and repeatedly getting my "stun, sleep (2), break, sleepga (2), and yes CURE (3,4) interuptted, ya feel me? can I get an Amen!?)

I'm of the opinion, that despite having ultimate cosmic powers, I am still a support cast, and my main function is to assist the "flow" of the fight... STUN>blm enfeebs>keep my party alive>Nukes ... generally until something retarded happens and then it goes to STUN>keep my party alive> Kill the mob as fast as I can > ... explain what happened

We've (KoP) won alot , lost a few, but always had fun doing it.. My shell made my taru every last bit of what he is ;)

I like to think that my little taru is of the top 15% gear/abby atma wise, (ultimate/beyond/MM +2'd set, goetia accessories, ugly, sering, novio, +2'd staves ..etc..), I've sets for all sorts of situations , dmg , nuking, curing, all that.

I've fought some of the uglier things Vana'diel has to offer, granted most of my experiences, I've rolled with some of the Best kind of "coheasion" that you can think of as far as anticipating what one another is going to do almost before we would do it, I've also have had as most, my fair shair of the PUG's that everyone loves to read about.. and usually successful provided cool heads provail and all that... anyway.. my opinion is that ANY blm that plays blm should play it NOT expecting ANYONE to heal them...ever..

I'll be the black mage running around Kirin with a sliver of life completely at peace with it, even before manawall was available I played blm on the edge and intentionally would take hate if needed for the few extra seconds the pld needed to recover from that god aweful double attack that would come at the wrong time and put them down into the 30-80 hp range (of course trying to get to a position where it doesn't comprimise the parties configuration and what have you)... granted I'm also the black mage that is almost always 75% of the time reapplying my buffs SS Blink And Aquaveil(<<<<important!!!!). You check my black mage 95% of the time I'm wearing a Damage Reduction set, EXPECTING to get hit, (I know standing in jeuno waiting for that next crystal to fall out the sky right? )

So no, A Smn, Whm, Rdm, Blu, Brd, Cor, tries to cure me they get my -hp macro flung back at them, and a nice first tell that I don't expect them to cure me unless I'm dying, and a semi firm tell explaining i expect to get hit, and after that I'll flat out tell them NOT to cure me (pug mind you , anyone in the shell know's I'm a "death mage" ... (I've even considered adding another macro next to the hp down, to hit imediately after, /em takes <t>'s cure and throw's it down and crushes it into the floor =).

okokok too much coffee ;)

ahahaha... I reread that.. let me emphasis..

I'm saying that a blm shouldn't be putting himself in a position that he'd be getting pounded so hard that he'd "need" someone else to cure him.. but if... "if" .. he does (and we all do) ... yes cure his butt... but . don't make it a habit, and let em die from time to time to learn, .. ... becuase we all did, and if we didn't we still need to.. help the silly blm's become better blms.

or something like that...

regardless of what kind of mage you are, if you have access to cure and someone needs a cure when the whm is busy, why wouldn't you help out? It's not a death sentence to toss out the occasional cure III or IV to save a life....

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Originally Posted by Bubeeky

regardless of what kind of mage you are, if you have access to cure and someone needs a cure when the whm is busy, why wouldn't you help out? It's not a death sentence to toss out the occasional cure III or IV to save a life....

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Not writing specifically at Bubeeky, but answering in general:

If I'm supposed to cure myself and nuke, I load SCH (or RDM) for either solos/parties. If I'm in event (well, used to, endgame for my BLM ended with abyssea) I crowd control, stun and nuke. In rare occasions, like us sucking at Tinnin, I resolved to paralyna etc and cure tanks to the point of taking hate, but I'd call it bad battle strategies and party setup. If I'm in party/alliance, I do BLM-y stuff and expect RDMs/WHMs/SCHs to do their healer-y stuff. If I'm forced to cure, this shows we are short on good healers. Do your primary job an let me do mine. If I have to do your job, you (or my BLM instead of RDM/WHM/SCH) are maybe a wasted party slot. I use stuns and sleepgas to save lives.

As for SMN, I consider them specific type of DDs (when a pet tank or hate free damage is needed) and buffers/debuffers (for specific situations). I consider BRDs buffers/debuffers (both for party and enemy). If either of these jobs' primary function potential comes unused to the point of them idling, either they should come as some other job or we're overkill for the event.

As a blm for years and a smn and a whm for a few years less, I'd say yes. If the blm has pulled hate the last thing he should be doing is curing himself and establishing more hate, at most he should be either stunning to allow time for another mage to cure and tanks to pull hate off, but that in itself is situational. Other than that, he should be trying to get ss/blink up while whatever current buffs are wearing off. The whm is probably too busy to help cure unless there is only 1 mob at which point things shouldn't be panicky and you really shouldn't be stressing out, so other mages should be helping the blm stay alive. Its like asking if a blm should be nuking or stunning as a mob runs up to a whm to hit it. Unless hes already mid cast, he should be stunning it to save the whm (of course this is assuming hes not in a stun rotation and fing that up)

I'll cure myself on BLM if I have to, or if I feel that I'm too close to dead (Red or deep Orange), but if it keeps me from doing what I'm supposed to be doing, then someone is likely to hear about it.

I have WHM (I actually play it a lot more than I do BLM these days), so I know what it's like to have too many people to heal and not enough time. As such, if I die without any cures, but everyone who COULD have cured me is spamming for their life, then whatever. Shit happens. If I die and there is a potential healer just standing around doing nothing, then I'll fly off the handle (Spontaneous Retraces may be involved).

I will cure myself if I have to. I tend to be able to not need to. As for in parties/alliances, the WHM has enough DD's to worry about. If I'm stupid enough to pull hate and not use my job abilities then that's my fault. A large part of being able to play BLM is to understand how your tanks are holding hate and be able to cast accordingly. If there is a BLM that dies over and over again and complains about not getting cures, then I think that they need to understand how to play their job a bit better.