Spell concept "Backfire"

While I posted this on the general discussion about SCH and retrace/recall and old idea popped back into my head.

SCH are suppose to be book smart with knowledge of both light and dark arts, so they should have a good grasp of how to manipulate spells and turn a disadvantage into an advantage. With this in mind the idea of backfires came to mind.

Don't you think it would be an interesting concept if a SCH had the ability to turn an enfeeble such as paralyze or silence into an enhancement that increases the target's abilities?

The basic rules I have to this concept are
-3 minute recast
-Target can only have 1 backfire
-casting time is the same as a na spell
-100% resist to said spell while backfire is active

With these simple rules you can easily created a balanced concept that allows SCH to have a unique concept when it comes to enhancing the party memebers without taking away spells like haste or paralyna.

But ya basically a petrified target can be given the enhancement of -dmg taken and a silenced target now has more mag acc and mag crit hit rate or MaB. There are a lot of ways for the concept to play out but I'm fairly certain it's balanced with the restrictions in mind. I'd just like to see a series of spells for SCH to support the idea that they are strategist that think on their feet in the battlefield and have thought of ways to use an enemies strength against them.

I support this idea.

basically your asking for sch to get null- spells, but instead make it a strategem charge, and it turns enfeeble spells to Null-Paralyze, or Null-Silence where it has a 100% chance to block said spell but disappears after use? Sounds pretty cool, if implemented like this, your restriction would obviously come from Charges.

Sounds interesting to me. I like the buffing side of SCH in LA, and turning an enfeeble around to create one is a lot more novel than a handful of new buffs. Also brings a new dimension to just spamming -na spells, with some thought and trade-off involved in who gets the -na and who gets a buff. Might even get some interesting behavior of people standing in silence range just to grab an MAB from backfire, or carrying debuff items for the same reason!

When I first read the thread title I thought "Backfire" would cause a mobs magic to hit them and not their target lol.

It is an interesting idea. It is very similar to Divine Caress, but a lot better. I don't think the White Mages would appreciate that! hehe

I am with Sasaraixx on this one. I was thinking a spell almost like Reflect. I like the idea you have though. I support it. You could limit it by charges or even have it be like a one shot elemental blink that can be thrown up quickly with all spells of that type being on the same recast timer (think of the dancers waltzes timer/submenu or something along that line).

Example: A mob is casting Fireaga III and the black mages stun is down. Sch could pop "null-fire" and it gives the party 1 blink effect that will only block the damage from a fire type spell.

It would give a whole new depth and strategy to Scholar which, in my opinion, it lacks beyond just the "can switch between a blm and whm" for the most part. It would fit nicely in with the idea of the job as well.

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Originally Posted by Jackastheripper

I am with Sasaraixx on this one. I was thinking a spell almost like Reflect. I like the idea you have though. I support it. You could limit it by charges or even have it be like a one shot elemental blink that can be thrown up quickly with all spells of that type being on the same recast timer (think of the dancers waltzes timer/submenu or something along that line).

Example: A mob is casting Fireaga III and the black mages stun is down. Sch could pop "null-fire" and it gives the party 1 blink effect that will only block the damage from a fire type spell.

It would give a whole new depth and strategy to Scholar which, in my opinion, it lacks beyond just the "can switch between a blm and whm" for the most part. It would fit nicely in with the idea of the job as well.

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I like this too. If potent enough, damage prevention rather than straight recovery would be a more interesting way to make SCH a viable healer again, rather than just getting Cure V. Like I said it would have to be potent, but it would fit with previous SCH party play of using Stoneskinga + Phalanxga + Aquaveilaga etc. to essentially "heal" without having to cure spam.

Lots of great ideas have been presented on this board as a means to do this. Reflect is just one, elemental/enfeeble nullification and backfiring is another.

Another thread (Judge I think) mentioned a "glyph" concept where you could cast a veil of any element type on a player and upon hitting the player the mob would take the corresponding elemental nuke damage, destroy the glyph and prevent the player from taking damage.

I like this and Reflect the best because it combines healing and nuking. To this point we have been switching arts to fill either role, one at a time. Though this was a fun concept to 75, it's winnowing because potency is king. I'd like some abilities 91-99 that allow SCH to fill both roles at once, like we have learned to combine schools of magic rather than just switch between them.

Another idea that fits this is the concept of nukes that hit party members as well as mobs, except if the appropriate weather is up. Ultima could hit everyone in range, but be absorbed if Aurorastorm is up, for example. You'd effectively AOE heal while nuking, if you are paying attention enough not to let Aurorastorm drop. Sure you could MPK your party, but I'm intrigued by the idea of SCHs having odd potent abilities that require a lot of preparation and some danger too.

Now of course this leaves WHM and BLM barking that SCH is overpowered, but just like previously the trade-off was strategem availability and some extra thought and preparation required to be that powerful.

And, honestly, if the 5 people/server that actually play SCH were overpowered, I'm not worried.

Would the backfire cure the ailment, and then apply the extra bonus? If not then theres no reason to use it, you should just be -na'ing.

If it DOES remove the ailment, then IDK it seems pretty cool, but sounds more like a WHM ability to me. Also I think having abilities that rely on ppl getting enfeebled would be extremely limited, and they'd probably have to be overpowered to make them useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

basically your asking for sch to get null- spells, but instead make it a strategem charge, and it turns enfeeble spells to Null-Paralyze, or Null-Silence where it has a 100% chance to block said spell but disappears after use? Sounds pretty cool, if implemented like this, your restriction would obviously come from Charges.

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It's more like SCH's would have knowledge to be able to cast like an anti-curse spell that would basically go on top of the enfeeble and convert it into an enhancement, which would remove the status ailment at the same time.

Basically think of it like this, you become petrified, SCH cast "Golem" the spel converts the ailment into the -5% dmg taken enhancement and you go under the effect of "Backfire" which prevents you from having another backfire enhancement on you til it wears off.

At the same time I'm thinking they could work as unique spells, "Golem", "Vision of Faith", "Vision of Bravery", "Chantless Voice", "Mind of Incantation", etc basically petrify backfire, blind, blind, silence, silence. An idea popped in my head that perhaps there could be variables of backfires for similar enfeebles where Vision of Faith improves a mages potency while Vision of bravery improves a melee's abilities.

Reading up on some of the input though other ideas have come to mind, I'm trying to concept this idea to make it balance but at the same time not make WHM -na spells useless.

Basic restriction so far:
-3 min recast on the spells
-only one backfire can be on a player at a time
-can be dispelled

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I noticed a comment about using strategms and this idea came to mind. Let's say SCH gets this strategm at lv 50, we'll call the strat "Light Arts" -Ailment reversal-(for lack of a better name). Basically when "Ailment reversal" is active the next -na spell casted by SCH will cause the enfeeble to turn into an enhancement. So basically the tier 1 versions while not as powerful as the tier 2 concept would only be "slightly" limited but the advantage of tier one would be the ability to cast the same backfire on two targets if you have the charges saved up.

Tier 2 "backfires" though would be unique spells that can only be accessed with addendum: white, You wouldn't need to use ailment reversal to use them but they would be on a 3min recast.

Basically

Tier 1:
-LV 50 Strategm:Light Art: Ailment Reversal
-ability to use -na spells to turn enfeebles into enhancement
-limited by strat charges
-only one "backfire on target at a time(can't be stacked with tier 2's)

Tier 2:
-Unique spells gained from 75+
-3 min recast upon casting
-let's say you can accession them(since it would turn it into a 3-6 min recast still)
-same limit only 1 backfire on target

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Now because I saw mention of "null-fire" a new idea popped into my head that could be a parallel to the backfire concept.

I'll call it Dark Arts "Elemental Manipulation" Lv 91. Basically the users next elemental magic attack(excluding helix) can be cast on an ally and it'll produce a barrier based on how much damage it would have done.

So basically say you use Elemental Manipulation and cast Fire V on the PLD, you'll see the Fire effect go off followed by the message that "PLD gains the effect of elemental shield" -Elemental shield allows target to nulify damage based on element used on them-

Now it could go two ways with this. Elemental shield could be a stoneskin like effect where the shield will last til it's "HP absorbing" potential is reached or it could just absorb the next elemental damage you taken based on how much it's able to absorb.

Basically:
LV. 91 -Elemental Manipulation-(maybe an earlier lv)
-Cast an tiered elemental spell on a friendly target to give them an elemental shield
-Status effects that show up on user will be "Elemental Shield"
-Only one elemental shield can be cast on the target
-limited by strat charges and recast on elemental spell

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I would say the duration of "Elemental Shield" should be maybe 5 minutes the same as stoneskin.

Now perhaps we could turn "Elemental Manipulation" into a tier 1 version of the ability and have it available at lv 60, and add a tier 2 version "Reinforce"

Reinforce could be gained at lv 91 where basically it allows you to cast a helix spell on the target and it amplfies the "shields" strength based on how strong the helix attack is.

So basically in a sense you create a series of strats that not only bring a unique twist to how SCH can turn the tiered spells into a shield for their allies but at the same time bring a unique use to the helix spells to do the same thing.

There might be more tweaks that can be made to this idea but the general idea behind it is through the knowledge of SCH's they have basically used the knowledge of protection spells like shell and protect to alter the effect of their elemental attacks like Fire to turn it into a shield to protect rather then a destructive force that destroys.

But the problem with that is you rely on being hit with the spell in order to change utilize it, when the world revolves so heavily around shadows and complete damage mitigation this would be trifle at best (sorry for sound so harsh) but having a way to Null- the spell and have the Null-spells proc BEFORE any kind of shadows, it would make SCH a much desired job to have in the group. Especially if you can Null-elemental spells (also it stays within the classic FF terminology/spells)

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the idea as it was obviously inspiration towards the null- idea but in terms of putting sch to the top of the line, I just don't think it will happen. People aren't going to leave their shadows down in order to have a chance to get hit with a stone/paralyze/enfeeble to turn it into an enhancement, and then run the risk of getting hit with a nasty -ga spell instead.

The second part of the idea (elemental portion) sounds like something that would sway people to pick a SCH in a party, but I'm just still not convinced the -na thing would work unless it just stopped the enfeeble from happening and processed before shadows did. (as Null-enfeebles have been used in previous FF titles)

@OMEGA_HACK
This is why I think it would be funny, actually. If the backfire result were potent enough, you could see people popping enfeebling items like crack to get a backfire on them. I mean if you could backfire silence into MAB, wouldn't you be using silencing potion to backfire yourself all the time? Unless backfire were a spell instead of a JA, of course, in which case silencing yourself to use it would be as dumb as the mobs that still cast silena on themselves...

I like the idea of sch's magical manipulation extending to manipulating enemy magics like this....could be used offensively or defensively, but it's not infringing on the role of whm blm or rdm, it's making a new role for sch, good thinking OP :)

PS, Using the restrictions the OP listed, I don't see this as being problematic for whms in the world of -na spells...especially if/when they increase the duration of divine caress to 3 mins, as these spells wouldn't necessarily prevent the same status from hitting the character again, where divine caress does.

Also, these could be used offensively by doing the same thing to the monsters -- turning their buffs into enfeebles, continuing to build on sch's concept of manipulating magic already in existance :)

I like every idea brought to light in this post. Totally keeps with SCH cannon and keeps everyone happy to boot.

I very much like, no love the idea of backfire spells!

It fills SCHs Image just perfectly.

I think the concept of turning negative effetcs into beneficial is very much what seems to belong to SCH.
I also think there is more to the backfire concept.

Let's turn incoming damage into Damage over time! Example:
you have this new effect on you (or a party member) and Bubble Bernie readies an attack that would deal 1000 damage to you. Instead of taking the full 1000 damage immediatly, it turns into a damage over time effect on you, dealing up to 1000 dmg in like 100/tick or so.
It would only work with severly damaging attacks (somewhere starting @700 dmg+ or so?)

That would give you just enough time to heal someone without having thim die from the big damage attack. Maybe even enable a spell to remove the DoT effect (erase or something new)

Or have a certain amount of DMG done to you/party member trigger an enfeebling on the mob.

There could be so much more! I really hope one of admins will read this and forward it to SE.
From 75 there was so much potential... and SE delivered Animus spells, Adloquium and Libra.

SE could spin that easily. IF SE reads this page that is.
Perhaps it could be a simplified a bit.
Backfire(ga): Turns the next enfeeble into an advanced enhancement. eat a couple charges up.
effectively stopping the next enfeeble or setting up the player to use items as mentioned above.

If ur up against a mob that spams paralyze.. a double attack buff to replace it on occasion would be sweet.(example :P)
most tanks will get hit with something at some point. some DDs/mages will get hit at some point. you cant stun everything.