[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] NIN

As long as you're going to make NIN a more effective tank than PLD, Migawari should do more about magic attacks.

Also, something needs to be done about the gil / inventory requirments of tools.

Play Corsair properly for a day and then come back here complaining about Gil/Inventory requirements of tools. Ninja's the cheapest consumable-using job in the game, and that's including any job that subs Nin.

Gil is easy to obtain now and the tools are cheap, especially combined with the ninja tool expertise merits, gear and bonus from yonin. Nin is very cheap to play and if you're struggling to pay for your daily allotment of tools, I feel bad for you.

On a better note; from the language used, it appear they're looking to design an ability that would essentially allow a nin to avoid a mobs tp move. That's my interpretation of it anway. Anyone else have ideas or thoughts on that?

Wow, I thought the "get moar gil n00b" trolls would be on the RNG forum not the NIN.

No one is trolling. Nin is not prohibitively expensive, outside of perhaps new players who still need to obtain utsusemi:ni. For anyone who has a lvl90 job however, getting gil to pay for ninja tools should prove to be no challenge.

Edit: also, people keep using that word... I do not think it means what they think it means.

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Originally Posted by Bagel

Gil is easy to obtain now and the tools are cheap, especially combined with the ninja tool expertise merits, gear and bonus from yonin. Nin is very cheap to play and if you're struggling to pay for your daily allotment of tools, I feel bad for you.

On a better note; from the language used, it appear they're looking to design an ability that would essentially allow a nin to avoid a mobs tp move. That's my interpretation of it anway. Anyone else have ideas or thoughts on that?

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Wishful thinking interprets that as Utsu: San, but I'm not really sure that NIN needs it anyways given that they already have 9 shadows with +2 feet.

Maybe a spell that blocks an AoE move or -ga spell? I can't think of much else that Utsusemi doesn't already cover.

Sidenote: 400k Cruor = 1M+ gil. Chocobo Blinkers or bust.

Edit: Troll? No kidding. It's pretty much become synonymous with "Person who disagrees with me and/or thinks I'm doing it wrong" on these forums.

I would think San is out of the question for the reasons you stated. 9 shadows? There isnt much that you cant tank with 9 shadows. I am just hoping this new ability to turn aside enemy attacks isnt some migawari clone or parrying boost.

NIN
add a perfect parry stance
increase evasion for HNM's (bringing back nin tanks)
but i guess the real prob is magic absolutely rapes nin, so increased mag evasion or def wouldn't hurt
the nin 2hr should have been changed at day 1. how about making it where our shadows do dmg until they are struke down. and as long as our 2hr is active re-summoned shadows continue to do dmg.

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Originally Posted by Bagel

new ability to turn aside enemy attacks

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When I saw this, I thought of enmity dose or however you spell that BLM ability. Something that lets you reduce your enmity to 0, turning the mob away from you. Not some new defensive ability like 3rd eye or God forbid utsusemi san.

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Originally Posted by Diemond

increase evasion for HNM's (bringing back nin tanks)

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Lack of being able to do damage and keep hate is what prevents ninja from tanking, not lack of evasion.

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Originally Posted by Diemond

but i guess the real prob is magic absolutely rapes nin, so increased mag evasion or def wouldn't hurt

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Suck less and get an MDT set, MDT caps at 50% for everyone. (unless you have an aegis, as of the last update aegis breaks mdt cap) Even then....... If you're getting hit by single target spells, or can't time utsusemi to land right after an aga spell goes off, you should get better at ninja. This is just user error on your part IMO.

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Originally Posted by Diemond

the nin 2hr should have been changed at day 1. how about making it where our shadows do dmg until they are struke down. and as long as our 2hr is active re-summoned shadows continue to do dmg.

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While ninja 2hour is terrible, this idea isnt that good either. Esspecially if they all come into play with as much enmity as you, and could pull hate, and cause problems with mobs that require exact positioning. What if your shadows get on the side of a wyrm and pull hate and flail your alliance?

i'd like to see nin get the ability or nin spell that uses a smoke bomb to immidiately lose hate and detection on all mobs in zone (except true sight/sound/and smelling tracking mobs) and gain the temporary effect of invis and snkl for 30 seconds. This would be similiar to super jump but adds the effect of invis and snk, but short duration like current /dnc jig.

your totally right about the not being able to hold hate enough to tank, that totally skipped my mind. shows how long its been since I used nin besides solo stuff.

I was indeed talking about mobs who get aga happy, my nin had a decent MDT set but that gimped evasion so shadows took a beating right at the time for an aga spell lol. Its tough to think of ways to help with magic dmg. but i guess i was focusing more on my solo stuff for magic def. maybe a way for nin to absorb remaining shadows to heal would be a better idea.

my 2hr idea involved the shadow system working the same way. Just add the extra damage as if the nin was attacking an extra 12 times per round. This would even help by giving nin a spike dmg/hate ability to tank.

I'd still like to see a job Trait that allows for higher potency/damage/acc on the next action performed out of Invisible status. Spell, melee, ranged, or what have you. Even if it's only good for once and rarely twice a battle, it would be a fun addition.

think the planned update to nin is trash, well ability could be good, but not holding my breath. StoreTP ninjutsu seems to be a joke, casting ichi every 3min so i get 5tp/hit? Give this us as trait, if you really worrying about tp gain, it wouldnt break the game in any way, wouldnt help even a little bit.
I dont really see what they up to with nin, "both offense and defense", so basically nothing will change, wouldnt mind removing positioning at least from innin because critrate is what helped nin a lot, or give lower critrate bonus when not behind.
So, i really feel, we have still no idea what we want with you guys, so we give you some shit.

I disagree with the haters in here.

Not sure what to make of the "turn away enemy attacks" as that could mean anything. We already have a lot of those abilities due to shadows, migawari & high parry. Eh, I am open to it..

STP ninjutsu however will be great for those of us with Kannagi. Providing it has a decent duration and will last half the fight, with a decent amount of potency. I consider myself as a ninja having quite good DPS, however when having to stop and recast shadows, and the odd proc spell, enfeeb spell etc - TP gain takes a hit and aftermath sometimes wears before I can get it back up. (Keyword "sometimes" to the trolls & elitists).

In comparison to other jobs I think NIN has it pretty good for the time being. They are in a high demand (pretty much every group needs one, if nothing more then red & yellow procs), have decent DPS in Abyssea compared to a lot of the jobs that need a rework, and all in all have a decent Empyrean weapon as well. I think a lack of job adjustments just shows that SE is quite happy with the direction they have taken NIN. So are most of the players.

As for tanking HNM's. Don't know what you're talking about with that one. DPS on nin even without atmas is still reasonably decent - there is also a lot more enmity + gear out there for us then there used to be. Have tanked a few now and had no issues holding hate.

Of course if you have an ukko WAR spamming WS's on it you're going to have an issue but for the most part there isn't a huge issue with holding hate.

The only thing I can think of that we suck at is tanking any of the Voidwatch NM's. However I believe they will become a lot easier with the level cap rises.

Oh I wouldn't mind some kind of accuracy bonus (that doesn't nerf our evasion) so we can full-time Yonin while tanking and not have to miss 80% of our hits. Maybe give us an A+ in Katana or something. (Am I the only one that notices this?)

If it's a Ni spell i would approve, but why is every new Spell "ichi" only, in some cases casting slow spells can even get you killed. we don't need a new spell that will just make nins MORE vunurable, i'm still waiting for that Jubaku Ni that makes no sense not to have at this point.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

If it's a Ni spell i would approve, but why is every new Spell "ichi" only, in some cases casting slow spells can even get you killed. we don't need a new spell that will just make nins MORE vunurable, i'm still waiting for that Jubaku Ni that makes no sense not to have at this point.

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"ichi" is Japanese for "1", and "ni" is Japanese for "2". Asking for a Ni spell before ichi would be like asking for Fire II before Fire. It's merely a semantics issue; they could easily grant us an "ichi" ninjutsu with the casting/recast of a "ni" ninjutsu.

Nin needs to get some love from Camate. =/

I don't think this job needs anything at all.
Scratch that - Native Throwing weaponskills and inexpensive/ middle tier / lower tier shurikens.

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While ninja 2hour is terrible

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Are you kidding? Ninja's 2hour is currently one of the best, since it essentially allows Ninja to remove weakened. Whenever White Mages talk about how terrible our 2hour is, or a suggestion to allow White Mage to remove weakened in some other way, the discussion inevitably comes down to "you can't do that, Ninja 2hour". While dying kinda sucks, I really doubt this 2hour will be changed, especially with how popular it is. The only boost I could see is auto-reraise on 2hour, but that seems like something the Mythic weapon should do...

On Ninja in general, the job is very powerful, meaning that even if you have something that fits the job's flavor and is interesting and widely asked for that Ninja deserves (like say, Throwing Weaponskills) SE has a hard time giving it to Ninja, because Ninja is so powerful that a slight misstep could crush any game balance like a Ninja crushes its foes. Ninja isn't exactly a silent assassin of the night in this game. It is more like a force of nature that will kill you and then steal your materia.

That said, here are a few suggestions for Ninja:
Throwing WS
A piece of gear that has a protective gauntlet that originates from a single pauldron on a shoulder. It should enhance throwing.
Some ability that summons a dog to do a single attack for you.

Oh man, the people who don't understand game mechanics and think throwing can be saved have shown up. Someone light the Akujima signal!

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Are you kidding? Ninja's 2hour is currently one of the best, since it essentially allows Ninja to remove weakened.

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Maybe you missed the update announcement that WHM is getting a spell to remove weakness? And if you don't die like an idiot all the time it doesn't matter and is useless.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

On Ninja in general, the job is very powerful, meaning that even if you have something that fits the job's flavor and is interesting and widely asked for that Ninja deserves (like say, Throwing Weaponskills) SE has a hard time giving it to Ninja, because Ninja is so powerful that a slight misstep could crush any game balance like a Ninja crushes its foes.

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SE has already said that because of the way the game is coded they can not add throwing WS's. Do some research before you spout out this stupid crap 100 other people have already said. And ninja sucks on anything that isn't weak, and even on weak mobs, it doesn't do as much damage as real DDs.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

That said, here are a few suggestions for Ninja:
Throwing WS
A piece of gear that has a protective gauntlet that originates from a single pauldron on a shoulder. It should enhance throwing.
Some ability that summons a dog to do a single attack for you.

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lolnothanks

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Maybe you missed the update announcement that WHM is getting a spell to remove weakness?

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Source? I looked high and low and couldn't find it myself, and this is the sort of information I'd like to see firsthand for a comprehensive list. Thank you, in advance.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

And if you don't die like an idiot all the time it doesn't matter and is useless.

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Bad stuff happens. That's what 2hours are there for. But while your judging the play style to be that of one idiots use:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

And ninja sucks on anything that isn't weak, and even on weak mobs, it doesn't do as much damage as real DDs.

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Being able to do an extreme amount of damage using its many tools, I've seen Ninjas mess things up fairly reliably while being able to tank. Maybe it won't be able to do as much damage as another job, but being able to survive while doing the damage is pretty darn powerful. SE already told Paladins "lolno" to more damage, an most players assume that Ninja is a better DD then PLD.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

SE has already said that because of the way the game is coded they can not add throwing WS's. Do some research before you spout out this stupid crap 100 other people have already said.

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I am aware of this. That said, we're also talking about the same team that said they'd never go beyond 75, or that Ninja isn't a tank job, or any number of other things. There is a different team in charge of FFXI now too, meaning they might actually be willing to put it in, and considering the number of effects and job abilities added, I don't think it would be impossible, regardless of what the previous team, notorious for blaming PS2 limitations (some of their excuses turned out to be bunk) said.

Please don't assume people are stupid, it doesn't help constructive conversation on these forums.

was going to reply but Eco pretty much summed it up.
only an idiot would accept the "coding limiations" response from SE.
Since the "coding" response they've released a lot of new jobs, a lot of redesigned/reskinned old content.
FYI, its less coding to introduce throwing weaponskills than it is to introduce pankraton, chocobo circuits, MMM.. all of which are wasted resources and server space.

If you don't like the coding limitations issue, how about we talk about why it's just dumb to add throwing WS's, which is simply that unless they do more damage then Blade: Hi there's no point in doing it because no one will use them because they will not be worth using! So hey, good idea, let's ask SE for stuff no one will use! Then they can waste their time doing a ton of coding and adding stuff, just so no one can use it! That sounds like an amazing awesome super idea! (As a side note, yes, Blade: Hi, don't give me any crap about how you don't have it or it's to leet for you or whatever. You could solo Kannagi at 85, and it's only gotten easier at 90, and we're about to be 95, there will be no reason to not have it except for pure laziness. If you just spent 1 hour a day and do 1 pop a day working towards it, you can have Blade: Hi in under 3 months by yourself will very little effort. OMGZ I DONT HAVE TIEMZ I R CASUL PLYR ONRYZ is not an excuse, and neither is not having friends.)

And maybe you guys missed the last 6 years before Abyssea when NO ONE played NIN, because everything was to hard to make it useful. Hard mobs make ninja junk, and on weak mobs, you don't need a tank anyway and other stuff will out damage it. The only reason NIN is doing good now is because of the false impression people have of it being super duper amazing. Granted it has a crit based WS (jin) and it's empyrean is very good because it is also crit based (hi) so it's better then stuff without good WS's, but it's really not that good compared to real melees.

I also seriously think it's less effort to add pancration, chocobo racing and whatnot, then it is to go redo the main code the game runs on that would be required to make throwing/ranged attacks useful and give throwing WS's. If it was something SE could actually do, it would of been done already, ranged attacks have sucked for years. Instead SE is simply moving on, and not adding shurikens because they recognize that it's junk and not useful. It's time for you guys to recognize it too.

I didn't catch that source of where White Mage was getting a way to remove weakened. Since anything I say might distract from this point, I am not going to bother adding a retort to anything you said, since I am genuinely more interested in finding the source of where SE said that they were giving White Mage a way to remove weakened.

Okay, it has been over a day, so I guess I can't really expect you to answer.

SE is about to release notes on Ninja (they already did on the JP forums).

Despite the garbled machine translation that I can read currently, I think I can clearly make out two major points. Forgive me if I misinterpreted it, like I said, garbled machine translation.

1. Throwing is really powerful currently, but not widely used due to cost. (And probably something along the lines of a "no we won't buff it directly.")

2. Lol no, NIN is not going to self heal.

Assuming that one is a no to throwing weapon skills also falls into my points. Ninja wouldn't get throwing weapon skills because Shuriken have high damage base and it would do lots of damage, and Ninja already does a lot of damage with a melee weapon, even ignoring OPTIONAL Empyrean weapons.

Ninja's who currently use throwing can output absurd amounts of damage in addition to their other abilities, but cost definitely holds back on this.

On the second one, who assumes that SE will make Ninja self heal without having to rely on a subjob?

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

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I want shurikens to be improved.

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Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.

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I would like Yonin/Innin to be sustained abilities.

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In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.

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I want an ability that resets hate by throwing a smoke bomb.

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For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.

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I would like the power of elemental ninjutsu increased.

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The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.

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I want the duration of Monomi/Tonko to be increased to a length similar to the duration of magic spells.

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Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.

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I want some way to recover HP using ninjutsu.

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We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.

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I would like “Ni” and “San” upgrades added to enfeebling ninjutsu.

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If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

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I would like ninjutsu that protects players from AoE spells added.

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We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.

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Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.

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We are planning on implementing this.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

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TMNT II The secret of the ooze!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLGRidfFo4

Oh my did he really go there. Camate is now known at Vanilla Ice.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.

We are planning on implementing this.

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Woodworking profit ftw.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

Oh my did he really go there. Camate is now known at Vanilla Ice.

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I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

Oh snap!


yay for new shurikens ^_^

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Originally Posted by Camate

I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

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Do I win a cookie yet?:cool:

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Do I win a cookie yet?:cool:

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Yeh, you get a cookie. :p

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Originally Posted by Camate

I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

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I remember that... it came out the same time as "The Land Before Time"... and that Pizza Hut was promoting TMNT by selling their music on cassette lol...

skipping stones....

SWEEEEEEEEEEET~

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Originally Posted by Camate

Ninja feedback!
Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.

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I'm not a NIN, but I did post a possible solution to this very issue in my Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Guarding thread. The Throwing weapons themselves would not necessarily have to have the enfeebling effects attached to them in order for players to benefit from having the ability to add enfeebles to what they're throwing. With abilities such as the ones myself and others are proposing within the thread, the NINs would be able to simply carry around any Shuriken they want and still have the added flexibility of enfeebling a target without worrying about bloated inventory issues. I ended up calling these "Enhancement Abilities" since they would work for every job that has the appropriate combat skill to access them (unlike "Job specific Abilities"). In regards to Throwing specifically, here's a few suggestions from the post:

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Originally Posted by kingfury

• Throwing:
Like all the other Combat Skills listed above, throwing could be enhanced through a number of methods that perhaps have 3-5 tiers based on combat skill level. Instead of seeing something like a WS animation based on TP, a list of Throwing-based Enhancement Abilities would now be nestled within our "Ranged Attack" option of which to choose from. Some examples of the "enhanced" Throwing could be:

-Doubled Mark: Causes each of your throwing attacks to hit a target twice. (Timed duration of effect) »Doubled Mark Example
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-Goliath Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be a head shot that may stun or cause amnesia. (Instant Single use) »Goliath Shot Example
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-Toe Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be an attack that may bind or weigh a target down. (Instant Single use) »Toe Shot Example

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*(Multiple ideas) ——— AyinDygra ——— (Read full descriptions from post #25)

•"Thorn in the Side" - Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)
•"Armor Wedge" - Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy.
•"Shadow Shuriken" - For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active.

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*(Multiple ideas) ——— Karbuncle ——— (Read full descriptions from post #34)

•"Brain Spike"- Additional Effect: Amnesia. This shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.
•"Silence Shuriken"- Additional Effect: Silence. This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).

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•"Syphoned Mark" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Throwing by causing your next throwing attack to drain either TP, MP, or HP. (Instant Single Use) ( From post #127)

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Need some shuriken as strong or stronger like the ones called "artic wind" dropped from sky gods. 250 base damage and stack-able. those even have hidden effects to dispel their en-spell so i'm sure something similar can work out.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Need some shuriken as strong or stronger like the ones called "artic wind" dropped from sky gods. 250 base damage and stack-able. those even have hidden effects to dispel their en-spell so i'm sure something similar can work out.

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Well, those have only one purpose and one purpose alone and aren't exactly used widely (therefore they're balanced for what they do.)

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Originally Posted by Camate

Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

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You forgot to mention that throwing skill is 100% useless to level.

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Originally Posted by Camate

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Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.

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We are planning on implementing this.

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Missed this. This is great, unless it requires Synergy, in which case, it is terrible unless subcraft is limited to one, such as woodworking OR clothcraft OR alchemy, but not a combination of them. But really, it would be ideal if current crafters could make the tools, even if the tools required multiple synths between different crafters before the finished product could be made.

Edit: Also, in order to not sound ungrateful, let me again say how wonderful this is, particularly for crafters. It rocks.