Enspell 2 and Fencer

so, is it just me or were these made to go together? improve damage while using 1 1hander and a damage enhancement that works best with a single weapon, perfect. and yet rdm doesnt get fencer, whats the lowest job that gets it? WAR. i mean, what sence is there in that, everyone knows war uses a 2h or 2 1hs (if you're oldschool) and yeah thats great for your tanking pally subbing war, but what about us rdms? the ones who could dust off that old genbu's shield, and pair it up with an almace for a decent damage/damage mitigation pair up. not to mention fencer's TP enhance effect would majorly benefit aftermath.

now, while we have this as an option by subbing war, its the kind of ability that perfectly fits the red mage immage, and need i point out that the name of said ability is the same as one of the prefixes used for RDM specific gear? (fencer's ring/earring)

even fencer 1 (5% crit rate and 40TP bonus) is a damn nice job trait to have.

Just one of SquareEnix's many cock-ups with RDM, like the ridiculously low parrying, despite the relic being called Duelist's Armor, the rapier type weapons we use and so on.

Who uses enspell 2's? my ones do 33 and my 2's do 48, and with 12 double attack and + other da/ta atmas in abyssea this makes enspell 2's fall way behind, ntm if you use any kind of atk more then once weapon or duel wield enspell 2 are automatically a vast amount of damage short. Now if SE where to fix it so we didn't have to choose bt 60+ enhancing magic skills and the main piece of gear haste rdm has access to then they would be slightly more useful but only prcing on 1 out 2-6+ hits depending on gear/atma in an attack round = lets say 70 damage wearing your enfebling gear, vs enspell 1 where all procs out of 2-6 =(35 each and gear doesn't have to be kept on) 70-210. Also if you miss your first swing with enspell 2 you just lost a ton of damage where as with en 1 you will still get some damage, Enspell II's where about as useful as cow poop. It you have really low double atk rates and don't use ANY OAx weapons(that means no joy toy) though then you can make some use of them.

I agree on several points:

1) RDM needs to gain access to the Fencer job trait at lower levels and gain access to higher tiers at later levels. It just makes sense. (See: Fencer's Earring, Fencer's Ring, Fencing Degen, etc.) I'm not sure how SE over-looked this. Why does BST or BRD get Fencer at all? Why does WAR get FOUR tiers of it while RDM gets none!? WAR is never going to use a one-handed weapon and a shield, SE, stop trying to tempt them into doing so. For melee RDM everywhere, let some justice be done. RDM should get just as many tiers of Fencer as WAR, if not more.

2) En-spell II are garbage. Just plain and simple. Anybody worth their melee salt has some variety of multi-attacking weapon, Double Attack, Triple Attack, etc. and it makes En-spell II worthless. En-spell I are almost always more useful. The way En-spells work is also terribly flawed... having to keep wearing as much Enhancing Magic skill equipment as you can forces you to sacrifice valuable Accuracy/Attack/Haste just to have slightly improved additional damage. The potency of En-spell magic should be based off of how much Enhancing Magic skill you have at the time of casting. Equipment, etc. that has "En-spell damage +X" should be factored in after this on a per-hit basis.

i sue En spell II sometimes when i sub DNC so i can get spell dmg plus aspir samba effect when im fooling around but the general dmg does blow

The concept of enspell IIs aren't terrible. It's just how they were handled is. Frankly if they let the enspell IIs calculate their accuracy and potency during cast and let the enspell IIs start at their max value instead of building up they would be a lot better. At least then they would have a situational use for sword and board and cases where you want to activate a sanba on your offhand swing.

I agree 100% RDM deserves Fencer. There is just no excuse. I don't know what I'll do if RDM doesn't get Fencer by the time we get to the 99 cap.

Enspell II are horrible. I almost never use them. I might use them if I'm farming and I have THF sub and I don't feel like using my Joytoy. I don't farm that much anymore so I can say I never use them. Now, if they made Enspell II work like Enlight and Endark for PLD and DRK, I would be a happy camper.

O.o Why would you want our enspells to work like Enlight and Endark? They deteriorate per hit and given not only is Rdm's enhancing skill innately lower then Pld/Drk's Divine/Dark skill (not sure how much they can get with gear), but also the fact that we swing faster then Pld/Drk meaning that we would have to refresh the spell like every 2 mins. Don't get me wrong, their attack and accuracy stat bonuses would certainly be nice, but we already have enough of our DoT reduced from our casting load. We don't need enspells that we would have to recast every min because the damage has already deteriorated. Kinda defeats the purpose of our composure buffs due to the spell "wearing off" not from duration but from reduced affect.

Isn't the advantage of Enspell 2's, that they weaken the enemy's resistance to the opposite element of the enspell? I always use version 2 of these, except for enwater 2, 'coz I don't have it and am too cheap to pay full price for it right now. :P

Only problem is that if you really needed an elemental reduction so badly you are better off /nin and using their elemental nukes since they reduce resistance by like 3-4x as much and since /nin gets dual wield suddenly the T1s are better to use again.

I would like it if Enfire II lowered Fire resistance. I mean it would make sense to be me to be fully exploiting an enemies elemental weakness.

No idea why Enspell IIs don't work on multi hit. Every decent RDM that isn't pretending they are a caster has some kind of double attack. It makes no sense to give them an upgrade that is a downgrade. They could make it so that every round of hits does the same amount and they don't get the +1 damage until the next round of hits. That way RDM don't max their enspell damage within 5 seconds of casting it.

+1 to getting a level of fencer on RDM at some point. I usually am /DRK and I don't usually dual wield, so I would love it.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

+1 to getting a level of fencer on RDM at some point. I usually am /DRK and I don't usually dual wield, so I would love it.

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This is where I'm at odds with myself. I agree that Fencer or a trait like it would help RDM a ton. At the same time, I know that most of us who melee tend to lean towards /DNC or /NIN because of Dual Wield.

I mean, people speculated that /WAR would be very nice once the cap was raised to lv90 because RDM could sub /WAR and get access to Fencer, Double Attack and Aggressor. Only for us to discover Dual Wield still curb stomps Sword&Board.

If Fencer itself gave a huge Store TP bonus in the TP phase, you'd introduce the possibility of single-wielding at least keeping up with /NIN for TP gain. It's harder to say if the actual TP bonus to WS is more beneficial than an extra off-hand hit since not all WS work the same. Then again, now I'm thinking the JA could tweak one-handers to use the 2H formula for STR/DEX stat conversions. All in one would be ideal, but either idea would help the trait gain some steam.

I agree fencer just sounds like a RDM trait & would help RDM melee though in my observation, at least in abyssea, magic WS seems to be where it's at. RDM can bust out some nice Aeolin Edges, I just wish we got Sanguine Blade natively ; ;. And if SE wants to make enspell 2s not just another useless & wasted addition they should change them.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

If Fencer itself gave a huge Store TP bonus in the TP phase, you'd introduce the possibility of single-wielding at least keeping up with /NIN for TP gain. It's harder to say if the actual TP bonus to WS is more beneficial than an extra off-hand hit since not all WS work the same.

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For elemental WSs that would be nice since they can't even receive additional hits anyway. Honestly they should of given Fencer Store TP instead of TP bonus in the first place anyway. I mean how many 1 handed weapons skills are actually going to receive a significant bonus from TP Bonus anyway? Pretty much just elemental ones. Store TP would at least equally benefit all WS (though having both would certainly be nice)

Only issue is that /nin and /dnc still lets you use a Martial Weapon and an OaT at the same time where with single wielding you still have to pick one or the other (which for Aeolian Edge at least is a tough choice)

I would really like it if they made some more offensive shields to balance out dual wield. I don't think there is anything wrong with dual wield, but I would rather have fencer and use Enspell 2s(Buff them).

It'd take a hell of a lot for a shield off-hand to come close to the perks of dual wield. However, I'd put whatever offensive perks a shield could give into the Shield Mastery trait. As is, that's only a benefit if you're the one with the mob's attention, but in general situations against good DDs, the RDM won't be holding the mob's focus.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

It'd take a hell of a lot for a shield off-hand to come close to the perks of dual wield. However, I'd put whatever offensive perks a shield could give into the Shield Mastery trait. As is, that's only a benefit if you're the one with the mob's attention, but in general situations against good DDs, the RDM won't be holding the mob's focus.

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I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that, but why would offensive perks be wrapped into shield mastery? Fencer is a trait that gives perks to those that do no use 2handers and don't use dual wield. I see it as the offensive perks of using a shield.

I agree at present, Shield mastery doesn't do much for us in a party besides maybe give us some free spell interruption resistance.

I also agree that dual wield + enspell 1 > sword and shield + enspell 2. No question. It would be nice if you could go DPS with dual wield and enspell 1 or you could focus on WS, SC, and MB damage with Fencer and enspell 2.

Because the moment you make one "must have" shield for offense, you pretty much invalidate every other shield in the game. From there, you run the risk of SE putting it on some out of the way or exceedingly difficult mob with a rare drop rate that nobody wants to fight because pandering to melee RDMs isn't in the best interest of their linkshell or whatever.

I strongly believe that the things we need to gain some job identity and appeal should be accessible to everyone and not exclusive to endgame. Endgame stuff can further build upon that, sure, but if you're one of those people who thinks, "Get CDC and you'll be okay!" then we're not on the same wavelength. Think of it as climbing steps as opposed to cliffs.

No, I'm with you. I think you should be able to push what you like about a class with equips, subs, and party dynamics. But it should be at least partially inherent to the class to begin with so everyone can enjoy it. I personally like hunting equips down so I can keep pushing.

I'm not too happy that dual wield with enspell 1 being the dominant build. I think Enspell 2 got shafted and I would like to see more options. It isn't very easy to find shields that are worth much to a RDM, but we get shield mastery and I would like it to be used. I run /DRK so i get every WS possible to me. I also get a larger selection of useful magic and more offensive abilities than most RDM get for a 1 handed weapon. I like the idea of enspell 2, but their execution was flawed at best. I would like to add Fencer to the list of things I can use to expand my build.

there are other options for still utilising enspell 2s, subbing DNC for example, since then you get whatever samba you're using plus enspell 2 from your mainhand, or offhanding twilight dagger for the drains from that. but its still annoying not being able to get the max out of enspell 2s, but equally they would be fairly overpowered if they procced on every hit. maybe a tweak to make it the first hit from each hand?

I just want it to apply to every hit done by your main hand. In the case of multiple hits, you get the same damage for the whole round. If your initial damage is 20 and you double attack and hit once additionally with a Joyeuse, you deal 20 x 3 additional damage. On your next round you hit for 21, not 24. It still takes X amount of rounds to hit your max damage. Not X amount of hits.

In the case that you use enspell 2 on dual wields, your main hand damage goes up in all cases. You can still /DNC and use your offhand for any additional affects or Sambas you want to use. That way, you have more choices and options to play with.

In the case that you have a bunch of enhancing gear and you are /NIN you can still use enspell 1 for better up front DPS or total DPS in the case that you have 2 weapons with multiple hits.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I just want it to apply to every hit done by your main hand. In the case of multiple hits, you get the same damage for the whole round. If your initial damage is 20 and you double attack and hit once additionally with a Joyeuse, you deal 20 x 3 additional damage. On your next round you hit for 21, not 24. It still takes X amount of rounds to hit your max damage. Not X amount of hits.

In the case that you use enspell 2 on dual wields, your main hand damage goes up in all cases. You can still /DNC and use your offhand for any additional affects or Sambas you want to use. That way, you have more choices and options to play with.

In the case that you have a bunch of enhancing gear and you are /NIN you can still use enspell 1 for better up front DPS or total DPS in the case that you have 2 weapons with multiple hits.

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That might be very...impractical to code.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

That might be very...impractical to code.

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Or maybe it wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Luces

Who uses enspell 2's? my ones do 33 and my 2's do 48, and with 12 double attack and + other da/ta atmas in abyssea this makes enspell 2's fall way behind, ntm if you use any kind of atk more then once weapon or duel wield enspell 2 are automatically a vast amount of damage short. Now if SE where to fix it so we didn't have to choose bt 60+ enhancing magic skills and the main piece of gear haste rdm has access to then they would be slightly more useful but only prcing on 1 out 2-6+ hits depending on gear/atma in an attack round = lets say 70 damage wearing your enfebling gear, vs enspell 1 where all procs out of 2-6 =(35 each and gear doesn't have to be kept on) 70-210. Also if you miss your first swing with enspell 2 you just lost a ton of damage where as with en 1 you will still get some damage, Enspell II's where about as useful as cow poop. It you have really low double atk rates and don't use ANY OAx weapons(that means no joy toy) though then you can make some use of them.

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Basing everything on abyssea is your first mistake, try doing things outside abyssea. thats where the majority of the new content will be.

On topic of the thread SE screwed up a lot on RDM and I think the job needs a total revamp, No special subjobs to access weaponskills, RDM only spells that no one else can access via subjob, maybe even our own magic type to rival blue mage.

We may be the "jack of all trades" but theres nothing we can do that no one else can do, 3 enfeebs wont cut it forever.

I wouldn't want a revamp. We just need the right adjustments. Blue magic is Blue magic, you shouldn't be competing against it, you should be playing with it. As a jack of all trades, it wouldn't make sense to have our own magic type because we borrow from everyone, that's why we can use all the magic types that WHM and BLM can use. We can also use every defensive skill that a WAR can and every 1h weapon as well as Archery and Throwing. They are just better at them than us.

Why do people always forget the additional effects of enspells2? Just in case you don't know, it lowers a mobs resistances to particular types of magics so that you don't get as many resists(u know 25%,50%, etc). Not to mention that the more hits that lands the more stronger the damage and effects are.
Yes, when you look at it solo, enspells don't really do much for an individual, but in parties, everyones magic spells and elemental Weaponskills go way up.
My only issue is that RDM's often get stuck pulling or buffn. The really cool effects of magical resistance down aren't monopolized...and yes, in Abyssea most mobs die to quickly. At the very least, there should be a party casting option for redmages even if it goes slightly against the whole "self-casting" notion of the job.

Enspell T2s only lower the enemy resistance for one element by -10.

If you really needed additional elemental accuracy you would be better off subbing /nin and using their ninjitsu. Those reduce resistance by -30 and to my knowledge do NOT stack with T2 enspells (not that you would want to use them when subbing ninja).

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Blue magic is Blue magic, you shouldn't be competing against it, you should be playing with it.

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I look at it more melee mage vs melee mage. What does the one that works and is accepted (BLU) have that the one that is not accepted and does not work (RDM) lacks.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I look at it more melee mage vs melee mage. What does the one that works and is accepted (BLU) have that the one that is not accepted and does not work (RDM) lacks.

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I can accept that. I just see them as the physical equivalent of what we are supposed to be, so I don't hate on them.

To me, BLU = physical DD Mage and RDM = magical DD Mage. Both have burst damage, but nothing compared to a BLM.

BLU has spells that scale nicely into higher levels. RDMs get Tier IV nukes and Enspell 2s. Tier IV nukes are nothing to scoff at, but enspell 2s are restricting and were outdated the second they were released. (1)They don't lower elemental resistances much, (2)they don't work on multihits/dual wield, (3)they don't work with other additional affects, (4)and their damage is only affected by your current enhancing skill.

(1) Compare to NIN or BLM. If this is our highest Tier Enspell, then it is far from Iconic... or good for that matter.

(2) Hey remember Joyeuse? Sorry it doesn't work with II, you're better off with I. /NIN same deal. /DNC you can have Haste samba.

(3) OMG TWILIGHT KNIFE!!! LOLRDM!!!! If you want to get any use out of Twilight knife or any other additional affect with Enspell 2 you need to be /NIN. If your main hand is a sword that isn't Excalibur, Murgleis, or Almace, then have fun with Savage Blade, it opens light and does sub par WS damage. If you are using Excalibur, you don't get your on hit additional damage. For Murgleis you don't get an enspell proc on your aftermath occasionally attack twice hits. Including Mandau, these are the best Main hand weapons you can get on a RDM for damage; 3 out of 4 have parts that don't work with enspell 2s.

(4) you can get 86 additional enhancing on a RDM past the cap, most of this equipment that isn't optimal for DD or there are better pieces available in the slot. 86 enhancing which add 4.3 to enspell 2 base. At max you get 5 extra damage to your base and 10 to the max. For 9 Pieces of equpment, you get 10 damage a round.

You can get 12 additional damage from Sword enhancement spell damage in the form of 2 earrings and a Chimeric Fleuret. But it doesn't get doubled like normal Enspell 2 damage. You also have to use a Chimeric Fleuret as your main hand unless you want to dual wield. If your HP is in the yellow you can get an extra 5 damage from a Fencer Ring. And if you want to, you could dual wield an Enhancing Sword as well for an additional 5.

Grand total in optimal conditions and full enhancing gear is 74 additional damage on your first hit of your main hand per round. With double weather and the corresponding day it could be as high as 102, which would never happen. Normally you would get 82 for weather or day correspondence.

These numbers are assuming you are wearing full enhancing gear, your hp is in the yellow, and dual wielding a Chimeric Fleuret and Enhancing Sword. You may choose your Equips for your Head, your ranged attack/ammo, and 1 of your rings.

If you choose to use enspell I you can get 48 Damage per hit. With dual wield you can do 96 points of damage per round without counting additional attacks. You can also Macro all your equips on for when you cast the enspell and thus pick all of your equipment. This equipment could include Suppanomimi and Royal redingote to reduce your dual wield delay to 33% from both hands. In 3 swings of a single wielded Chimeric Fleuret you could have swung 2 times with both an enhancing sword and a chimeric fleuret. Enspell 2 would have done 207 (because you can't have the enhancing sword bonus as well) points of damage max, while the dual wield enspell 1 damage would have done 192. That being said, enspell 1 can proc on multihits and additional attacks, so any additional attacks will put the damage in the favor of enspell 1 and will allow the user to choose their gear while meleeing.

ENSPELL 2's SUCK BECAUSE THEY DON"T SCALE INTO LATER LEVELS BECAUSE OF THEIR RESTRICTIONS. THEY ARE WORSE FOR DD THAN ENSPELL 1's EVEN IN OPTIMAL GEAR.



My biggest gripe is that all our New gear is cloth. It is centered towards magic accuracy and magic attack bonus. So we can keep our full enspell damage with the magical accuracy, woo. I almost never get resists anyways. Why doesn't magic attack bonus gear affect our enspells?

We don't get Scale Mail anymore. We occasionally get graced by some decent THF or MNK gear that almost everyone else can use anyways. At least make all that caster gear that SE seems over zealous to make for us do something for us besides try to make us BLM-1.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

To me, BLU = physical DD Mage and RDM = magical DD Mage. Both have burst damage, but nothing compared to a BLM.

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I'm fine with this. It's also why I would put RDM's emphasis on "magic melee" (hence my Spellblade suggestion) and Enspells.

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you can get 86 additional enhancing on a RDM past the cap, most of this equipment that isn't optimal for DD or there are better pieces available in the slot. 86 enhancing which add 4.3 to enspell 2 base. At max you get 5 extra damage to your base and 10 to the max. For 9 Pieces of equpment, you get 10 damage a round.

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Looking at how II's were designed, I think the whole "Enhancing Skill on cast" mechanic for enspell I's may have been a developer oversight that (just like a lot of the things they messed up in XI) they never got around to dealing with until it was too late.

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ENSPELL 2's SUCK BECAUSE THEY DON"T SCALE INTO LATER LEVELS BECAUSE OF THEIR RESTRICTIONS. THEY ARE WORSE FOR DD THAN ENSPELL 1's EVEN IN OPTIMAL GEAR.

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Agreed. Enspells in general not scaling has reared its head in abyssea more than anywhere else. Granted, that's no longer the focus of development, but is still there.

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My biggest gripe is that all our new gear is cloth. It is centered towards magic accuracy and magic attack bonus. So we can keep our full enspell damage with the magical accuracy, woo. I almost never get resists anyways. Why doesn't magic attack bonus gear affect our enspells?

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They're trying to push the spellcaster side for some ungodly reason. All it does is keep the damage generated mediocre, either way. If you're meleeing in mage gear you're not getting Accuracy, Haste and +Attack, which adds up nicely to enspells when unresisted.

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We don't get Scale Mail anymore. We occasionally get graced by some decent THF or MNK gear that almost everyone else can use anyways. At least make all that caster gear that SE seems over zealous to make for us do something for us besides try to make us BLM-1.

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See, I'd lean more to putting RDM on more melee gear and adding conditional stat conversions (reliant on Composure or some other melee-oriented mechanic) over just throwing in more mage gear. The benefit there being that you would viably grown into the magic melee theme instead of being gimp for x amount of levels until you end up getting Y piece of mage gear that starts picking up the slack.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Looking at how II's were designed, I think the whole "Enhancing Skill on cast" mechanic for enspell I's may have been a developer oversight that (just like a lot of the things they messed up in XI) they never got around to dealing with until it was too late.

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Enspell T1s used to work like that as well. It wasn't until that Sch got access to enspells and started trying to AoE them only to find that their melees would only do 2 damage per swing that it got changed.

Then they released Enspell T2 and gave them their original accuracy formula and everyone was pissed XD

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Enspell T1s used to work like that as well. It wasn't until that Sch got access to enspells and started trying to AoE them only to find that their melees would only do 2 damage per swing that it got changed.

Then they released Enspell T2 and gave them their original accuracy formula and everyone was pissed XD

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Everyone is still pissed, being the problem. Well at least RDMs.