The chage would do little since RR is not the only crit hit atma. If anything it would help war and drg more. So we could still get a high crit hit rate and then on top of it the 30%damage bouns to those hits that do crit.Quote:
empy drk wins outside abyssea outright all the time <_< not because we do more DMG per WS but we hit so much faster unless the war is getting ideal buffs it will lose. ( my LS has multiple ukko's and torcleavers and we run dyna sometimes)
but wait this isnt a war Vs. drk thread gtfo troll if you think this will just make war better explain to me how it wont make non crit jobs much much stronger. like war goes from 5 to 6 and none crit goes from 3 to 5 :P
anyway im closeing the thread its just trollololols that are coming in now no logic no thought more or less just complaining.
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07-02-2011, 06:47 PMRavenmorereopened "Change the Atma "Atma of the Razed Ruins" to better aid all jobs!."
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07-02-2011, 07:10 PMCream_Soda
People already cry about how broken razed ruins is. This isn't going to happen lol
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07-02-2011, 07:58 PMRavenmore
I should have put the opening post in too but meh didn't feel like it. Anyone that puts alittle thought into why it really wouldn't help unless you removed every crit hit atma. Then it would be either the same jobs still being on top or different jobs but only in exp.
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07-03-2011, 07:10 PMJar
If you going to reopen a thread at least post the original OP and put my Name in the quote you put at the top. also dont name it something stupid like reopened be original
also if you have i find it quite offensive that you recreated my thread after i closed
i found the old thread to be quite done with no new information being added just trolls coming and posting after not even reading the OP or anything said.
therefor reported for spam i hope the mods agree with me -
07-03-2011, 08:41 PMLeonlionheart
I don't think this is spam.
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07-03-2011, 08:51 PMLeonlionheartRavenmore isn't flaming in any way, he's just bringing up the issues you left the thread with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jar
Issues with changing RR from +30% Critical Hit Damage to +30% Physical Damage Dealt:
1: Would put WAR even further ahead by:
-More damaging double attacks.
-More damaging retaliation.
-Higher average DPS.
-Higher average Ukko's Fury.
2: The increase to damage for DRK and SAM would be:
-Torcleaver and Fudo goes from 2500 damage to 3250 damage. Barely a large difference in average damage in comparison to what Ukko's Fury would get.
-Higher average DPS, but lower increase since neither job has native Double Attack. Assuming in a non-buffed situation.
3: Would put MNK way ahead of everyone (but WAR), always because:
-MNK gets most of it's damage from "white damage" (non WS damage).
-MNK gets stronger WS than DRK and SAM anyways.
-Large amounts of damage from counters, which would just get stronger.
4: Would just barely even out the playing field between DRG and SAM or DRKs.
-Jumps would do the same damage and no real increase since they can auto-crit.
-Drakesbane average would go up, Empyrean WS would give damage closer to Fudo/Torcleaver
5: Would surpass the Critical Damage Cap (100%) that some jobs (WAR) is already easily hitting.
(Shown for WAR)
-SS= 30%
-Blood Rage = 20%
-Trait = 8%
-AF3+2 Feet= 10%
-Cavaros = 3%
-Byakko's Haidate = ~4%
-Hecatomb Mittens = ~3%
-Total = +78%
-This means that WAR easily goes over Critical Damage Bonus cap with Razed Ruins (8% over), however with it being Physical Damage Dealt instead of Critical Damage Bonus, WAR would fly over everyone else more than it already is.
Changing this Atma is just one of the bad ideas produced by this forum. -
07-03-2011, 09:42 PMJarall posts but this one can be answered by my posts in the old thread therefore spamQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
no one listed the amount of crit damage WAr gets in old thread i could see that being a problem :x hmmm
would need to follow the cap that crit damage has as to not go over the +100% on crits -
07-03-2011, 11:24 PMNeisan_Quetz
Critical Attack Bonus 8%, Emp+2 Feet 10%, Blood Rage 20% 1/5 of the time, RR/Sanguine Scythe (Assuming not using VV for regain) an additional 30% each, Augmented Breeches/B. Haidate 2-4%, I don't recommend augmented K Osode or Brave Grip.
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07-04-2011, 07:10 AMRavenmore
Seeing how the mods done nothing with the threads on the main page don't see it happing. It was worse of a move to close the thread after posting a smart remark with no one being able to rebut.
You still didn't add to why RR would be the only atma to get changed since its not the only Crit hit atma. -
07-04-2011, 02:33 PMJarBecause RR VV apoc are the big ones used and capping crit damage with SS isnt a big deal because VV offers about the same damage boost parse wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
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07-04-2011, 03:09 PMRavenmore
Those are what are used now though, not what would be used if you changed RR to your idea.
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07-04-2011, 04:18 PMJarread what i said agian and than read up another postQuote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
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07-05-2011, 12:50 AMRavenmore
Yeah should have posted the first post since that poster wasnt paying mind to the idea. It still make war better then every other DD job in the game. War and whm and people pay you while you FC pop sets and this 30% dmg boost would help that more then DRKs or sams.
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07-05-2011, 01:23 AMCatsby
Better suggestion; make other atmas worth using so we don't have every job converging onto 1 atma.
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07-05-2011, 01:34 AMJarannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd read the first thread when i say i dont want it to change who is best just change the gap between the bestQuote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
and not going into how DRK can cleave too w/o a prob not as good as war but still only 2 ppl
You read anything man you sure talk like I did a great wrong closing the other thread when you dont even seem to know what was talked about there. -
07-05-2011, 01:35 AMJari can go for this idea too :D just i couldnt think of any that wouldnt just be paired with RR and make me QQ moarQuote:
Originally Posted by Catsby
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07-05-2011, 01:36 AMRavenmore
Till they get rid of how much dmg crit hits do, no atma that doesn't helps crit hit rate dmg will help.
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07-06-2011, 03:01 AMArmaukI think this is the only real fix. I'm not talking about improving one atma to compete with RR. They should go across the board and review every atma and reconsider their stats. Quite a few of them are really, really bad. Yeah if you improved a bunch of the bad atmas to be on par with RR some of them might get stacked with RR. Then again you would have a bunch of new options and maybe there would be a new atma combination that could close the gap some more for DRK and SAM. If there were 5 or 6 viable (non-critical) alternatives to RR then you can't stack all of them RR because of the atma limit of 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jar
One of the things that makes RR so good is that every stat is related to the same use (melee crits). +DEX for crit, +crit dmg, and +crit rate. On top of that it gives two superior effects and one major. The problem with a lot of the bad atmas is that the stats don't go together or they dont have superiors. They mix things like attack and magic attack (melee blm ftw?) or VIT and INT (clearly for pld/blm DD tank) or Song recast and Dia effect (wtf?). Then there's those atma that only give you stats on a certain day or weather condition even though there's no weather in aby... making them useful just one day of the week and who is really going to go change their atma because it's fireday or something? There's a lot of atma that only give two stats and don't even have a superior effect some are just two minors. There's a lot of atma that just give three minors and no superior/major.
I just think they should review a lot of them and reconsider the stat bonus combinations. Make them more specific to buffing one thing like RR and balance the superior/major/minor bonuses across the board. Every atma should give 3 stats too but some dont. Of course the harder the atma is to get the better it should be but a lot of the atmas out there are just plain useless. -
07-06-2011, 06:34 AMRavenmore
If you make any atma that increase dmg to close the gap you can't have it so jobs that you your trying to gain on can't make use of it to keep the gap. Best way would be to make a atma that boost all non-crit WS by ??% Then wars, drg, Emp. crit hit WSs would not benift from it and sams and drks could close that gap and keep thier DoT from apoc and RR crits.
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07-06-2011, 07:55 AMLeonlionheartWhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jar
Maybe for DRK, but LOL not even close for WAR.
1. VV doesn't close the gap between common 6hit builds to a 5hit build without rose+tactical+hoard(huge loss in attack and stuff)
2. fSTR is easily capped in Abyssea through gear and furtherance abyssite
3. Whether you use Raging Rush or Ukko's Fury, SS is better than VV.
4. 5% DA when you already have (assumed) 32% is not a very big upgrade. -
07-07-2011, 05:06 AMJarits alot closer than you think for ukko's man learn what WSC is and the 5 hit with VV will beat a 6hit with SS because like fstr attack is not that hard to cap on most things exp. with drinks and stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
and i just replied to an Asura lmao trolltastic -
07-08-2011, 08:04 AMLeonlionheartI'm serious. VV is pretty crap, I already explained why. WSC is for WS only, and even then 50 STR, when fSTR is already capped, DOESNT beat 20% Critical Damage Bonus. I've tested it all myself, and the builds are not even close. Not to mention the huge damage bonus you get from SS to white damage- that's what makes the 5hit lose so much, since you sacrifice something around 85 attack to do it. It's not worth it, ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jar
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07-08-2011, 09:04 PMJargoing from a 6 hit to a 5 hit is about a 20% boost to WS damage itself than 50 STR for WSC should make up for the melee loss because in all honesty your only at about 50% crit rate w/o blood rage up and that makes the melee boost a little smaller than you think. also try and read before you reply most of what you said i answered in the post you replied too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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07-09-2011, 05:29 PMLeonlionheartThe math has been done, 5hit loses to 6hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jar
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0A...t&num=50&pli=1, thanks to Nightfyre from ffxiah.com I believe.
As for "20% boost to WS damage"... You actually LOSE out on white damage, since every WS is 2 seconds of delay, and your normal delay should be less than that at capped haste.
You can argue against it, but you're wrong. Completely. Like I said, I've played with both setups- RR/SS/Apoc is pretty much a clear winner, considering with apoc you go over 100% TP even with a 6hit.
Also, unless you reply with more substantial proof than personal tests and or math disproving the sample used above, I'm going to ignore you completely and let the thread die.
Edit: This is however about WAR only; Scythe DRK should still try to aim for 5 hit I believe (although you should probably be using /war in abyssea for red procs, or changing jobs.) -
07-09-2011, 08:59 PMJarthat doc goes to nothing <_<Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
and you need 2 houred brd songs or a dancer main to get below 2 sec of delay on ukon war -
07-10-2011, 10:16 AMLeonlionheartMarch+4 = cappedQuote:
Originally Posted by Jar
March+5 is possible -
07-10-2011, 06:25 PMAtomic_SkullWouldn't matter, people would converge on whatever atma was the best. There will always be an "ideal" build because perfect balance is impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catsby