Weapom Skill Adjustments: What we have and what we need

*Because the other topic turned into a flame-filled mess between me, Jar, and Afro that spanned over a few full pages, I have recreated the topic and took the proper procedures to make sure I don't get caught up in that childish mess again. I have added a Notes section for any interesting suggestions and who made them, starting with the relevant posts from the previous topic.*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

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Seems many people have gotten through to SE developers in regards to Weapon Skills. So in order to make it easier for them, I wanted to make a topic dedicated to Scythe and Great Sword Weapon Skills. Not just Guillotine, not just Quietus, not just Torcleaver. All of our main ones.

As always, with all of the topics I make, please be respectful towards opinions. Not everyone will feel the same way you do about something, but the fastest way to look like an idiot is to treat someone else like an idiot. So please, be respectful.

Note: There will be people who ignore this and will proceed to completely flame you for your opinion. Don't do what I did and flame back. Instead, completely ignore them and only respond and hold conversations with people who are mature enough to agree or disagree with someone's posts in a calm and grown-up way.

Now then, here are my opinions on the top Weaponskills we have for Scythe and Greatsword, what their problems are and how to fix them without ruining balance.


[SIZE="5"]Scythe[/SIZE]

Guillotine
The Problem: Our only consistently good Scythe Weapon Skill.

The Solution: Adjust one of the other Scythe Weapon Skills so we can have something stronger than Guillotine that we go out of our way to earn.

Insurgency
The Problem: Time-Consuming to get, even without getting the Weapon itself. Delivers a fourfold attack like Guillotine but uses weaker modifiers and has far more inconsistent damage overall, making Guillotine a better overall choice. Requires 300TP to show any real noticeable damage but 3 100TP Guillotines would do far more damage.

The Solution: Strengthen the modifiers and TP damage multipliers in order to make a 100TP Insurgency have damage consistently stronger than Guillotine. Insurgency was crafted to be a pure damage Weapon Skill so it should reflect that.

Catastrophe
The Problem: I personally do not see any other than it requires Apocalypse.

The Solution: I don't recommend any.

Quietus
The Problem: Requires Redemption or Penitence. Damage does not reflect the modifiers and TP effect for the kind of Weapon that uses it and the difficulty to obtain it.

The Solution: Damage should be adjusted to be higher than it currently is. Most of it is in regards to the amount of Defense it ignores. I feel Quietus should reflect the properties of Twilight Scythe, but in Weapon Skill Form.



*Overview: I feel Quietus should be ideal against high defense monsters with defense boost skills and traits while Insurgency should be ideal against everything else. Guillotine has been a nice WS so far, but it's time to move on. Both Insurgency and Quietus should be noticeably stronger than Guillotine by now, especially considering they're quested Weapon Skills.


[SIZE="5"]Great Swords[/SIZE]
Torcleaver
The Problem: It's DRK's only strong Weapon Skill that can keep up with other job Weapon Skills. Exclusive to Caladbolg and it's Walk of Echo's alternate (forgot the name).

The Solution: None. It's a fantastic weapon skill for Great Sword, even if it's the only good one we have.


Scourge
The Problem: Damage and Effect do not reflect the power of the weapon and difficulty to obtain. Basically, might as well just get Caladbolg with Torcleaver.

The Solution: The weaponskill itself needs to be a lot stronger than it already is, though not as strong as Torcleaver. The aftermath effect should offer a stronger critical hit rate as well as a boost to critical hit damage. To further boost Scourge, it should become a critical hit weapon skill so it's own aftermath boosts it's critical damage even further.



*Overview: I think both weapon skills should have their uses so that there is more freedom of choice between weapons. Since Ragnarok is harder to obtain (by a lot), making Scourge a critical hit weapon skill so the aftermath boosts it even more, Scourge should do damage that rivals Torcleaver in the end, yet still boosting normal melee swings.


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[SIZE="5"]Notes:[/SIZE]

*Urteil suggested a Greatsword Weapon Skill that's similar in properties to Catastrophe.
*Rezeak suggested boosts to our magic-based weapon skills such as Infernal Scythe. Also agrees that Insurgency needs a boost.

I had such a beautiful post all typed up!

Catastrophe: Will reclaim it's spot back on top of scythes in my opinion if the aftermath is switched to JA haste instead of gear haste.

Quietus: Make it 2-3 hit and call it a day, there's your guillo replacement. Redemp hits hard, a buffed Q will be a serious rival to Cala.

Guillotine: Use it while farming for Caladbolg, then never use it again.

Insurgency: See guillotine

Torcleaver: 100% worth the work for it, easiest empyrean path to 90, get it and you won't feel the urge to make a thread like this

Scourge: Who cares if you have torcleaver! But for the few that were crazy enough to get a raggyrok, a dmg increase would be nice for it. The crit rate of the gswd and aftermath might be enough to trump Cala, but scourge is going to need a hell of a boost to do it.

COME AT ME

Except with update catastrophe switching to ja haste will work for 1 min when lr isnt up

caladolg honestly, hmm, id like to see it become multihit, myth behind cala and all, but no serious issue beyond wsc mod
ragnarok---- turn the weaponskill into crit hit and the mods are complete bs should be str dex not mnd chr
redemption-- my biggest thing is its oogly in my opinion, the ws is has shit mods an ftp and tp-def thing is poop too, needs so much fixed with it i cant even start

as for weaponskills

guillotine-- we had some good times my friend but all good things must come to an end
insurgency-- mods are more in line with drk being str an int but theyre low, really low, and ftp mod is low too, and there was some weird unknown crap bout damage spikes i still havnt seen any real solid info on, overall, i havnt bothered to quest it, no reason too since it underperforms

otherwise yea, spiral and ground strike need work on em spinning slash was good for what it was, but it can join guilly in the pasture in my opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vedder

caladolg honestly, hmm, id like to see it become multihit, myth behind cala and all, but no serious issue beyond wsc mod
ragnarok---- turn the weaponskill into crit hit and the mods are complete bs should be str dex not mnd chr
redemption-- my biggest thing is its oogly in my opinion, the ws is has shit mods an ftp and tp-def thing is poop too, needs so much fixed with it i cant even start

as for weaponskills

guillotine-- we had some good times my friend but all good things must come to an end
insurgency-- mods are more in line with drk being str an int but theyre low, really low, and ftp mod is low too, and there was some weird unknown crap bout damage spikes i still havnt seen any real solid info on, overall, i havnt bothered to quest it, no reason too since it underperforms

otherwise yea, spiral and ground strike need work on em spinning slash was good for what it was, but it can join guilly in the pasture in my opinion

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I pretty much agree with all that you said. Our Scythe weapon skills just aren't solid performers outside out old level 60 skill-obtained WS. It's time to have a reason to move away from them. Thats why I want both Quietus and Insurgency to recieve a buff in some form to make them better performers than Guillotine.

personally i'd be fine with a crit mod for insurg. I'd love to see the tests that kirschy could do with it.

The only reason I said the same for guillotine is how they did Raging Rush. Added a crit element, and was easy to do for them. BAM broken ws. (yes even before abyssea)

YES TO JA HASTE FROM CATASTROPHE

Also make the double/triple dmg procs the same as empy aftermath. 30-50%

I still don't think crit damage is what we need. After all, it only really caters to the Razed Ruins atma. Would it be nice? Hell yes. I just think the problem lies mostly in the modifiers and fTP. Look at Insurgency, for example. Like I said, it's a mere .5 damage dealt from 100TP. You'd need 300TP do do the full amount it was designed to do.

I'm not disagreeing but I'm not talking about razed ruins entirely either. With proper gearing RR is war's strongest non empy ws. Yes even outside abyssea, You just need that 50 dex, and drk can do this as well. Especially now with all the gear selections we have. We also get access to stuff like Zahak's mail etc.

Highest base dmg weapons in the game, highest base str. Str/dex gear availability out the ass. Crit mod on guillotine or insurgency would fix our ws phase in and outside abyssea. It would just require some actual effort in our gearsets on our part.

Again outside you just need that 50 dex, which is fairly easy to do now.

why would you want cata aftermath as ja haste when that gimps it after update(assuming lr isnt nerfed a bit)?
I havent used guillo for a long time, but outside of abyss I don't think that other regular ws's destroy it by any means,
and I think that giving us a crit mod to our ws's, just so we can do more dmg inside of it is not what we need..

go back and reread what I typed