THF and DNC

I know this sounds like a QQ thread and it is in a way. It's moreso that I would like a developer response, and since it deals with two jobs I don't think it belongs in either of the separate job forums.

This thread is not just "QQ over THF" but it also addresses problems with DNC. I am a fan of both jobs and would like them both improved. I will speak mostly regarding THF since I am and have been a passionate THF for a decently long time and my love of DNC is mainly from playing with good ones and not playing the job myself.

SE always seems to fear THF as a DD. Where they are happy to throw DD buffs and incredible power (see: Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite etc) at already extremely strong DDs, they are extremely hesitant buffing THF, often adding utility tools at best (doesn't help that they're often useless too - see Despoil).

Any career THF's greatest hate is the feeling that they are essentially there to contribute Treasure Hunter and nothing else. With the advent of great Atma and the general power of the 1handed DD in Abyssea, this has greatly diminished but as we move outside that realm once again I have some doubts that it may return. I would like to bring up the following:

Dual Wield: DNC was given high native Dual Wield and THF was not. Along with DNC's other DD advantages (Saber Dance, more Dual Wield gear) there is a considerable difference between a DNC and a THF's DD ability. This is silly when you consider the fact that DNC provides a level of support and a BRD-esque Haste buff while eclipsing THF's damage output. Instead of nerfing DNC's, I would propose that THF and DNC be given equal Dual Wield with NIN having one tier above.

Another large problem with THF is that it is largely passive. DNC has Violent Flourish and (although much weaker) Animated Flourish which allows it to control the course of a battle and/or get attention quickly if necessary. THF is forced to either hope Accomplice/Collaborator do something or melee for damage and although many jobs do not have a source of Stun and so perhaps THF does not deserve one, one should never underestimate the power of a Stun ability. Although I lack a suggestion, it would be useful if THF had some method of controlling a battle if it goes downhill quickly.

Speaking of abilities, THF has no defensive JA. We basically stick on Evasion (which is very nice, don't get me wrong - but an 80% upper cap is a bit restrictive; maybe raise that, even if only specifically for THF?) and hope for the best. DNC has the aforementioned Stun, high evasion, Fan Dance for extreme PDT and cures on top of that. It would be greatly appreciated if THF had something like "Perfect Evade", similar to how MNK gained "Perfect Counter" recently (although I'd like to re-emphasise - 80% as an upper cap is quite low (by design?)).

Finally, critical hits. You have recently been giving THF a Critical Damage Bonus trait, which I approve of and feel is a very good way to improve the job. However, you've then given (I'm only mentioning those you would use in a top-end gearset, and only those THF cannot use);

Kamome - NIN: +10% crit damage
Iga Eramaki - NIN: +2% crit damage
Charis Feather - DNC: +5% crit damage
Ravager's Calligae +2 - WAR: +10% crit damage
Lancer's Cuissots +2 - DRG: +10% crit damage ~ but since this is WS gear only, I will ignore it.

THF and DNC both have +8% at max level, meaning

NIN has 4% more than THF
DNC has 5% more than THF
WAR has 2% more than THF (WAR has +5%, and then -5% for the Loki's Kaftan difference).

This just increases the gap in damage between these jobs. If you want THF to be an expert at critical hits (which I would say is a good way of buffing THF, given SA and TA along with low Attack which needs criticals to increase damage significantly), please make us experts at critical hits. Another trait or two would be very welcome.

Now a quick note on DNC's behalf: shared Waltz timers have to go. DNC as a healer is pretty crippled at the moment because of the obscene Waltz timers, all sharing the same timer. Perhaps if not individual, at least separate them into Waltz(healing) and Waltz(statuscure) or something similar.

Yes I know, long boring QQ thread. I just wish to bring these matters to the attention of the dev team, and so thought to compile them here. My intention is not to make THF this unstoppable titan of damage, but instead to firstly not feel inferior to DNC in all ways but Treasure Hunter and secondly to feel like I am honestly contributing something great to a fight. That if a given mob did NOT need Treasure Hunter, people would still be happy to have me along. Feel free to leave comments etc.

I don't wanna add too much cause if i do I will probably beging to turn this into a QQTHF Thread. Cause we're F*cked three ways to friday in almost every way compared to other jobs.

Except we have treasure hunter.

Should also Bring up Blood Rage and Impetus, Which increase Critical hit Rate and Damage(AF3 body for MNK) for WAR and MNK. while THF Got......... Conspirator. Acc and Subtle Blow. yup. Oh and it doesn't work on the tank.

YUP

THANK YOU SE! I LOVE ABILITIES THAT DONT WORK WHEN I LOW MAN OR SOLO! You know, SA, TA, Despoil/mug(dont work on NMs in abyssea), Conspirator, Hide(doesnt work on NMs)

Next update, Why don't you get MNK and WAR dual Wield V. Oh, and maybe give them an ability that lets their DEX and AGI be added to their weapon and force a critical. MNK and WAR need that too.

Anyway, i agree with your post.I'm done QQ'ing

while i am not a thf i do think walzs do need to be broken up up it is frustrating to have to wate 30 sec to heal my self or sumone els and i end up eating more tools that way.

i would like to point out how THF has a higher dagger skill then DNC

Maybe they could continue the !! proc system (it's a great addition, and I hope to see it in many new events to come) outside of Abyssea to include a THF-only TH-boost !!. Make it so it can only be procced during certain windows of the mob's life, by SATAing the right WS or something. That way, at least when THFs are asked to come TH, it will let them contribute more than just equipping TK and smacking the mob as much as they can to proc TH3 more.

I don't know if that's something THFs would actually want, but just throwing it out there. More DD power (i.e. buffing Rudra's Storm) wouldn't hurt, either.

They do have "Job Adjustments" listed for the May and June updates. Neither of these see a rise in the level cap so maybe thf will catch a break and see an increase in it's native dual weild trait.

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Originally Posted by katiekat

while i am not a thf i do think walzs do need to be broken up up it is frustrating to have to wate 30 sec to heal my self or sumone els and i end up eating more tools that way.

i would like to point out how THF has a higher dagger skill then DNC

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Very true!
but its by a Minuscule amount. Which DNC makes up for with Accuracy Bonus Job traits to actually have more base accuracy than THF, However they do fall behind in attack by a ~few points. Which they more than make up for having Dual wield IV.

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Originally Posted by katiekat

while i am not a thf i do think walzs do need to be broken up up it is frustrating to have to wate 30 sec to heal my self or sumone els and i end up eating more tools that way.

i would like to point out how THF has a higher dagger skill then DNC

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Let's not forget native triple attack, gear that enhances triple attack (Homam, AF3+1, and the triplus dagger epona's (if you can get it)) can equip pretty much all of the same accessories that a dnc can equip to improve TP gain (brutal earring, twilight belt, aurore set, raperre harness, atheling mantel, epona's ring, etc), and crazy high evasion and gear that enhances that too.


Not gonna disagree on separate waltz timers though. But I can see why SE did it. They didn't want dnc to take the place of a dedicated healer. It was never designed to be a main healer. DNC is my favorite job, I do anything and everything I can to improve how I play the job. I would like to see separate waltz timers as well.

As for fan dance and saber dance those abilities are strictly situational. Saber dance effect diminishes 10% every minute over the course of 5 minutes, beginning at 50% during the first, ending at 10% during the last. With VV and Apoc atma saber dance is almost unneeded inside abbyssea. Fan dance is a diminishing effect per hit taken. So taking a lot of hits with no shadows up will render fan dance useless in just a couple of minutes.

Crit damage: WAR also has 8% from trait so it's actually net +5% for them. If you're including Kaftan, most Dancers shouldn't wear it in anything but capped-haste situations due to our AF3+2 body.

Dual wield: Dancer only has 5% more Dual Wield than Thief from traits, but our AF3+2 body is 10%. Our neck is matched by your boomerang, and we both get Suppa. The gear inequality is much larger than the trait inequality in this case, especially because we generally sub NIN anyway.

Saber Dance: Saber Dance (20% DA with 5/5 merits) is basically matched by Thief's 10% Triple Attack (5% base + 5/5 merits). Saber Dance is actually a little worse because it replaces job trait Double Attack from /WAR, which makes our native Dual Wield a little less important.

Haste Samba, a ton of STP, and Waltzes vs. SA, TA, TH, and marginally higher dagger and evasion skill <-- situational, but Haste samba and STP probably wins from a damage perspective.


People always say that SE neglects Thief. They want Thief to be for TH only. etc, etc. I absolutely think the opposite. SE initially based their entire battle system around Thief's Trick Attack. They created a handful of jobs capable of tanking and several jobs capable of briefly taking hate (through SA or TA) and surviving an attack round or two. Third Eye (and the stupid far-eastern defensive gear), Utsusemi, Super Jump, Counter/Counterstance. All not meant for permanent tanking in a Refreshless release-world with a paucity of Haste gear. The idea is that Thief briefly shifts hate around in the party to facilitate damage spikes. I'm sure many of us can remember a time when the game actually worked like this, and a THF with SATA Viper Bite was king (mostly because it doubled Attack, though we didn't realize it at the time).

Obvious problem is that the game hasn't worked this way in half a decade. I've entered and graduated college since the game worked this way. SE still hasn't come around, and gives Thief crappy unstacked WSs like Rudra's Storm.

Overall I would say that, while Ryan and Krab here (lol) would like Thief to balanced in terms of the DD hierarchy, SE is trying to balance the jobs in terms of desirability. Even though Dancer is a much better DD than Thief, they're less desired at the moment because they don't have TH. Treasure Hunter is a hugely desired job trait, and because Thief has it they don't need the DD advantages the other jobs need to see use.

i also think and maybe its just me but does anyone else think DNC should get a different WS on twashtar? it seams like that WS only really does a lot of dmg w with SA or TA on it

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Crit damage: WAR also has 8% from trait so it's actually net +5% for them. If you're including Kaftan, most Dancers shouldn't wear it in anything but capped-haste situations due to our AF3+2 body.

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I wasn't aware the WAR one increased to 8%; thanks for the correction. I also made a foolish oversight there with respect to the DNC body.

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Dual wield: Dancer only has 5% more Dual Wield than Thief from traits, but our AF3+2 body is 10%. Our neck is matched by your boomerang, and we both get Suppa. The gear inequality is much larger than the trait inequality in this case, especially because we generally sub NIN anyway.

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Yeah, 15% DW is one hell of a difference in situations where you're not hitting the delay reduction cap :x

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Saber Dance: Saber Dance (20% DA with 5/5 merits) is basically matched by Thief's 10% Triple Attack (5% base + 5/5 merits). Saber Dance is actually a little worse because it replaces job trait Double Attack from /WAR, which makes our native Dual Wield a little less important.

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Ah, it's down to 20% and replaces DA trait? I wasn't aware that it was that weak - I obviously haven't kept up to date on latest thingies.

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Haste Samba, a ton of STP, and Waltzes vs. SA, TA, TH, and marginally higher dagger and evasion skill <-- situational, but Haste samba and STP probably wins from a damage perspective.

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Also worthwhile noting that DNC can sub WAR for damage whereas if THF does this, it'll lose even more Dual Wield, giving DNC Berserk/Aggressor/10% DA trait (though this was covered somewhat in the Saber Dance discussion) or 10% more DW in favour of it.

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Overall I would say that, while Ryan and Krab here (lol) would like Thief to balanced in terms of the DD hierarchy, SE is trying to balance the jobs in terms of desirability. Even though Dancer is a much better DD than Thief, they're less desired at the moment because they don't have TH. Treasure Hunter is a hugely desired job trait, and because Thief has it they don't need the DD advantages the other jobs need to see use.

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I would agree with your logic here, but would contest that it is not the best way to balance the game. I hate feeling like I am just around because of a job trait and doomed to constantly have stuff thrown at all other jobs but mine. If a job came out which doubled droprates say in a theoretical world but was incredibly boring and useless except from that one ability, it would be desired. However, it would be very boring for the player - while it may make logical sense to keep it that way because the desirability remains relatively unchanged, I feel that in terms of making an overall enjoyable playing experience that this is not the best way (though of course this is an exaggeration).

I'm glad you responded since you're one of those very good DNCs whose opinion I value greatly!