After hours of testing, I'm reluctant to say that attributes, such as Int, Str,Mnd, Etc. only decrease burden gain at a capped (25% burden reduction) no matter if your attribute exceeds your pets by 1, 10,25,50,...,999 when using a maneuver, so high attribute sets are not necessary. (As long as your respective attribute is higher than your pet's after using a maneuever you will recieve a 25% burden reduction and a faster burden decay rate, but you will not get any more or less than this.)
As a quick example of what I'm talking about, say you're using Fire Manuevers. Then it has been said when using a "STR" gear set up in conjunction with the fire Manuever it will produce "Good Burden" and reduce burden gain by 25%, as long as your STR attribute (Or any attribute of the respective manuever) is currently higher than your Automaton's STR Attribute (or any attribute of the respective manuever on the automaton).
Most Puppetmasters believe that the more attributes stacked with its respective manuever, the less burden they would gain, but this isn't the case... I've done two simple tests while closely monitoring burden gain.
First Test: Using all the "Optimal" gear for every attribute
STR - Fire Maneuver
INT - Ice Maneuver
AGI - Wind Maneuver
VIT - Earth Maneuver
DEX - Thunder Maneuver
MND - Water Maneuver
CHR - Light Maneuver
MP - Dark Maneuver
In this first example I tried spamming fire manuevers at STR +0, STR+30, and STR+78 on the test server and tested burden gain and overload rate incomparison to no STR gear on. In result, burden rate for STR+0 overloaded at a higher rate than the STR +30 and STR+78, but the STR+30 and STR+78 both gained burden and a 25% reduction and niether cases were better than the other. Burden also decayed at the same rate for STR+30 and STR +78.
In my second test I tried using a Primival Brew and comparing it to the same data collected from above. With STR+999 and spamming Fire Manuevers Burden still decayed at the same rate as STR +30 and STR+78 and also recieved a 25% reduction.
*Keep in mind all of this testing is being used with Stormwaker Frame in order to insure that STR of the master can easily exceed the Automaton*
In conclusion, this proves that creating high STR/MND/AGI/etc. macros for maneuvers is not necessary to still recieve the same reduction in burden and burden decay, and Puppetmaters can get away with not using these type of macros at all granted that most attributes on the master are higher than the automaton to begin with.
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08-31-2011, 04:09 PMNezhaTest Server Check: Seeing if higher attributes directly affect Burden gain.
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08-31-2011, 05:29 PMTheytak
Not sure why you needed the test server to test this, since it's easy to do on the regular servers, and has already been done, but thanks for proving it again?
Wait...
Say what? Since when? Who in the world convinced people of this nonsense?Quote:
Most Puppetmasters believe that the more attributes stacked with its respective manuever, the less burden they would gain
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08-31-2011, 11:27 PMShinron-PUPWell actually with the fact that you can obtain any armor set and use infinite Primeval Brews, testing this becomes a little easier, and there really isn't any need to be sarcastic. Most Puppetmasters on my server literally don't know about this, probably because they read off FFXI Wikipedia which gives inaccurate information pretaining overload, so in essence, this thread is insightful because there're too many people out there still using INT sets for Black Mage pet Ice Maneuver spams for Ice maker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theytak
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09-01-2011, 01:01 AMTheytaker.... wait, what? FFXI wiki's info is mostly accurate, if somewhat out dated. The fact that stats affect overload and burden has also been proven time and again, in the above link, in my own tests, and even in your test. The wiki doesn't say anything about the benefit scaling with more of a given stat, and nateypoo even went so far as to both test and prove that fact in his thread (which is linked on the wiki page). Additionally, outside of abyssea, carrying an INT set for your ice maneuvers IS the correct thing to do (even according to your testing). Admittedly, there's no point to it in abyssea due to cruor buffs guaranteeing that your stats will always be higher than your pet's, but that's only true in abyssea. Any time your INT is lower than your Puppet's INT (and pup's int sucks, while SW has fairly nice base INT, in addition to the increase from maneuvers), you will get more burden from your maneuvers, and are going to be more likely to overload, and overload for longer periods of time. That's a tested and proven fact. I'm not really sure what you're trying to debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Also, I can't help that I come off with a sarcastic tone. It's a combination of my personality and my manner of speech, and not something I have any intention of changing, because we're all big kids here and I don't think it's appropriate to sugar coat my words for anyone that's over the age of 13.
Add to that the fact that I still can't grasp what you're trying to prove with this testing, beyond further confirmation of accepted facts. This confusion is further confounded by your seemingly contradictory response. I'm not intentionally being sarcastic or argumentative, nor am I trying to insult you. I'm just honestly confused, primarily by this statement:
Creating high str/mnd/agi etc macros was only ever necessary if you were in a situation where you were spamming 3x of a particular maneuver (read Ice, and to a limited extent fire, light, and now wind), and you were of a race whose base stats required more than a little increase to eclipse your puppet's stats, or you accounted for the additional +14 to the stats the puppet would have upon the third maneuver (read: the proper way to measure how much int you need for ice spamming). This, like I already state, IS still necessary outside of abyssea, due to the lack of cruor buffs.Quote:
In conclusion, this proves that creating high STR/MND/AGI/etc. macros for maneuvers is not necessary to still recieve the same reduction in burden and burden decay, and Puppetmaters can get away with not using these type of macros at all granted that most attributes on the master are higher than the automaton to begin with.
I guess my fundamental issue with your post is your lack of clarity as to what in the world you're trying to tell people. (Note: I agree with you in regards to most pups not having any idea wtf they're doing) -
09-01-2011, 09:44 AMShinron-PUPI can somewhat see where you're coming from now if you don't grasp what he's trying to say. In my interpretation, this testing is saying, in laymen's terms, that no matter if you have Int+ 1 or Int +50 over your pet's current int when using maneuvers, you will recieve the same amount of burden gain incomparison to having a lower amount of int or any attribute, when using a manuever, than your pet. This actually is vital information if you "read" it correctly because for people who mainly create huge Int sets to accomadate for the high overload you receive when using Stormwaker to nuke, they no longer need to do that. As long as your Int exceeds your pet's int after a manuever, no matter by how much, you will recieve the same overload burden down. He's not attempting to prove, in no manner, whether or not burden down is recieved when having a higher attribute than your pet with the same manuever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theytak
Now on the case of your sarcasm, I'm not saying that you should stop doing it or even sugar coat your words, but the fact that you shoot a "Thread" down before you completely understand where a person is coming from is rude. When you take the time to create a thread for public view after hours of testing, the least a reader can do is respect the person for actually taking the time to "Brighten" their knowledge over the topic. There has been no threads even covering this topic on this specific forum, and although something similar may have been on alkazham, people who turn to this forum for information will at least be able to find things regarding burden rates. Even in the case of if someone is wrong, having a debate over a topic will only help to understand the topic at hand and not necessarily have any negative affects. -
09-01-2011, 01:00 PMTheytakAlrighty, that makes sense now that I'm actually awake (as opposed to reading the thread at 5am... lol... I didn't even realize I was talking to two different people)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Well, I'm from alla, and this forum is fairly new. About 70% of the threads created, intending to "brighten" the knowledge of the player base on alla (and about 95% of the ones on ffxiah and ffxiclopedia's forums) are only serving to spew utter nonsense without any actual useful information besides the thread's particular poster's opinions/guesses being presented as scientific fact. I've developed my tone for these kinds of threads for two reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
1) if the OP can't accept that their idea/testing methods could be questioned, they're better off not continuing with the thread because they'll hinder the proper flow of logical discourse that normally comes from these threads when they're done correctly
and 2) In a thread meant to discuss and refine knowledge of the inner workings of the game, there's nothing rude about questioning or poking holes in a theory or idea if said holes exist, so long as it's done with some modicum of tact and not just blatant "YER STOOPID BECUZ I DISAGREE!" posting. The thread can't go anywhere if the only replies are "oh, cool, good job and keep up the good work!" in spite of glaring flaws in logic or lack of research/information.
Note: I'm not accusing the OP of being inept or lacking the testing/proof to back up their claims, I'm merely explaining the reasoning behind my posting style and why it works. -
09-02-2011, 03:13 PMTetsujinYes, absolutely true, but keep in mind that each maneuver increases the puppet's stat (e.g. INT+6/ice-maneuver), so your set/macros will depend on how many maneuvers you'll want to have up at the time. Just tossin it out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Thanks for the testing - reinforcing what several people have arrived at and brightening points that not everyone might have seen. Good effort!