Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Being good at the game makes you a no-lifer with no social skills (especially with the opposite sex) and means you care too much about FFXI, live in a basement and have FFXI as your sole hobby.

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Sounds good to me.

Actually that described me perfectly when i played. And only the last part doesn't still apply. All right!

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Originally Posted by Avidon

So, in a nut shell... How do I factor in haste when compared to other stats?

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If you want a simple answer for level 90, capped skills, point for point Haste will typically win out over most other stats while TP'ing. Unfortunately, you'd have to be more specific to get a better answer than that. Are there any particular sets of gear or any gear slots within a set that you want help with? Specifics are much easier to work with than trying to make abstract rules.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you want a simple answer for level 90, capped skills, point for point Haste will typically win out over most other stats while TP'ing. Unfortunately, you'd have to be more specific to get a better answer than that. Are there any particular sets of gear or any gear slots within a set that you want help with? Specifics are much easier to work with than trying to make abstract rules.

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I like simplicity. So I mean overall generally. I can build off a simple answer. and you answered it enough for me GG. Thank you. :)
And I'm not really the Gear swapping type. I did that with my thf on another character, and over the years I just gave up on trying as hard as I did. I like my new way of playing better, that being of simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Avidon

So, in a nut shell... How do I factor in haste when compared to other stats?

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As stated towards the end of the OP, you need to strike a balance. Loading up on a butt-load of haste won't mean much if you are whiffing a lot. Guess that's why you still see some Aurore and Perle pieces in use--people trying to keep a bit of the ACC factored into the mix, but swapping in some other pieces for the haste. MNK may be a good one to look at...some of the AF3 pieces replace (or increase the haste) from Aurore in the same slots, but also increase Kick Attack rates for free damage. While you loose the StoreTP+8, you are gaining the extra attacks to compensate and balance the DoT, possible increasing it. Would like to see some parsed data between them.

Can't wait to finish my Tantra and Iga sets and hopefully ditch pinks for good.

Raist

After re-reading some of Nature's post I realized that she thinks you lose all your tp when you die. Interesting.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

As stated towards the end of the OP, you need to strike a balance. Loading up on a butt-load of haste won't mean much if you are whiffing a lot. Guess that's why you still see some Aurore and Perle pieces in use--people trying to keep a bit of the ACC factored into the mix, but swapping in some other pieces for the haste. MNK may be a good one to look at...some of the AF3 pieces replace (or increase the haste) from Aurore in the same slots, but also increase Kick Attack rates for free damage. While you loose the StoreTP+8, you are gaining the extra attacks to compensate and balance the DoT, possible increasing it. Would like to see some parsed data between them.

Can't wait to finish my Tantra and Iga sets and hopefully ditch pinks for good.

Raist

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Eh, technically true. However, at level 90 factoring in 360+ skills, atmas/cruor buffs (inside abyssea), and level correction (outside abyssea, and in Visions/some Scars), Accuracy is fairly easy to cap without devoting gear to it. In the rare cases where accuracy is not capped, switching from Curry/Steak to Pizza should be more than sufficient. If it's between Accuracy and Haste, Haste is a clear winner in the vast majority of situations.

Attack is more of a concern these days. Most people are not capped on Attack for most things, so there is a tangible benefit to Attack+ in gear. However, you would need extremely low Attack in order for it to stand up to Haste in the same slot.

If you want a simple, 1 rule to rule them all type thing, gear for your X-hit, then Haste, TA, DA, Attack, and then Str/Acc in that order (I'm assuming fStr is capped in Abyssea, and that there is Str on other good pieces anyways). From there, let your food make up anything you're missing. Bison Steak is an extremely cheap, long lasting, potent Attack food and I highly recommend it. If you find yourself having accuracy issues for whatever reason, Marinara Pizza +1 should fill that gap. It's incredibly unlikely that anything these days will warrant sushi.

It's funny how many posts are simply bandwagoning off both sides of a one sided argument. Also perhaps some people should use this time off to increase their vocabulary a bit? There must have been like 20 posts calling people "bad" players which is both undescriptive and really just floors the level of the conversation. Inefficient, underperforming, casual may have described the situation better although I am in no way supporting either side with this statement.

That being said this game has gone through so many changes over the years and with each of them come new standards. Its really not too terribly difficult to make a macro or two(dozen) to swap out some easily obtainable gear.

I'm surprised that in 33 pages of garbage no one mentioned that you can swap some gear without blinking which would at least be a slight step in the right direction thus solving the problem(If there ever was one with stal macros)
Waist neck back rings earrings, change em for WS and evasion or whatever floats your boat, you won't blink so even the laziest of white Mages can find you to heal you while scrolling through there hundred spells.

Maybe it just takes an appreciation of how far this game has come. I remember when I TPed in a hauby and full thick gear. Back then it was more than acceptable. Before the two handed update or even back when the /disengage trick still worked (lol anyone remember that?) but times change and so do the standards by which we measure ourselves.

The underlying math is what doesn't change which is what keeps me playing this game. To see the marginal effects of my decisions in both gearing and playing makes me hawt.

Part of me misses the colibri when the dats was plentiful, standards workable and marginal increases were the world. I would like to see an FF where dDex fStr and accuracy play a role again. Haste is an easy decision, has been for a long time and always will be.

@ Greatguardian

yeah...I probly need to redo my sets for aby one day. I was thinking more along the lines of the older content. I spent so much time leveling up old school to around 65 or so before going into abyssea (didnd't want to just squat and leech in there.. wanted to stand a chance at actually hitting crap while in there), all my macros are still swapping in gears to exploit mods for WS and stuff. I need to get some quality time in abyssea to play around and make a new bank of macros for better accessories just for abyssea I guess.

but.. meh...wonder if it would really make much of a difference in there with all the atmas now. It's nothing to give your self +100 STR/DEX and a flat bump to both ACC and ATT with atma in there. Maybe a keen and assailants ring with mermans/coral earrings just to give the ATT a nice shot in the arm. Think I still have a tiger stole floating around too. With 91+ cooking, I always have an assortment of foods on me so I haven't really been arsed to mess with my accessories. Maybe one day I'll get around to tweaking it--so long as no one fusses about my WS damage in aby, probly won't worry about that too much for now.

Raist

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Originally Posted by RAIST

@ Greatguardian

yeah...I probly need to redo my sets for aby one day. I was thinking more along the lines of the older content. I spent so much time leveling up old school to around 65 or so before going into abyssea (didnd't want to just squat and leech in there.. wanted to stand a chance at actually hitting crap while in there), all my macros are still swapping in gears to exploit mods for WS and stuff. I need to get some quality time in abyssea to play around and make a new bank of macros for better accessories just for abyssea I guess.

but.. meh...wonder if it would really make much of a difference in there with all the atmas now. It's nothing to give your self +100 STR/DEX and a flat bump to both ACC and ATT with atma in there. Maybe a keen and assailants ring with mermans/coral earrings just to give the ATT a nice shot in the arm. Think I still have a tiger stole floating around too. With 91+ cooking, I always have an assortment of foods on me so I haven't really been arsed to mess with my accessories. Maybe one day I'll get around to tweaking it--so long as no one fusses about my WS damage in aby, probly won't worry about that too much for now.

Raist

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Rajas ring is still king, so that helps a lot. For a secondary ring, I'd recommend Epona's if you can use it, Hoard if you can't. When you're sitting on that much Str/Dex, it doesn't really hurt that much in the TP phase and extra Store TP may either drop a hit (1-handers) or alleviate the STP burden in other slots (2-hander). Brutal Earring is also pretty boss if you own one. Since it sounds like you don't, I'd stomp through CoP whenever you get the chance. The lack of level caps on the fights now make them practically soloable up to Airship/Tenzen (which may themselves be soloable with difficulty), and even those are definitely duoable. Agasaya's collar is also a pretty nice neckpiece where Tiercel Necklace is not needed to hit the haste cap, I'd just recommend bringing TH and possibly Blue proc'ing the VNM.

The nice thing about WSC (WS damage mods) is that it doesn't cap, so even if you have +100 Str you can still use 5 more Str on your WS; as such there's probably nothing wrong with your WS sets if you're gearing for the WS mods. If anything, the fact that dDex (that is, Delta Dex, or the difference between your Dex and Target Agi) is often capped in Abyssea with Razed Ruins and Cruor buffs allows you to drop DEX from critical hit weaponskills that don't have a DEX mod; as extra DEX will not increase your critical hit rate once dDex is capped. fStr (a function of your Str versus the Target's Vit) is often capped inside Abyssea as well, so you're pretty safe gearing solely for AGI for Blade: Hi and things like that. Whatever has the biggest mod wins.

Yeah.. I had pretty much dropped gearing for the DEX a while back. Figured I'd focus on the fSTR aspect more. I'm still trying to digest all the data on it. More often then not.. I just go find targets with a tight level range and just thwack away till I find a balance I like. And I went and got the mage ring as I was doing so much with mages at the time I finished...then fell back in love with SAM/NIN/MNK/DRG/DRK again in abyssea...meh. Wish we could go back and get all the rings and not have to choose just one.

I started going after some sea stuff... but just got frustrated trying to farm and such. Managed to get two obis and about halfway to two gorgets, then got the aby fever. Now that's all the LS wants to do. Hopefully we'll get back to Limbus once we get more AF3 knocked out. I want a Brutal and Boxers... but only have (embarrased to say it) 9 ABC's farmed... lol. But, I have decent stuff for straight ACC/ATT tweaking, and lots of STR to chunk in there. Somehow managed to cobble some decent stuff together. Inventory space was tight for a while too, but I just got my last of 10 jobs past 86 last week. Once I pawn off all that vanila gear I was using I can start going after the better goods. Hope the AH merger happens soon. Got a lot of gear to sell and I could use a recovering market to pawn it all.

So much to do... so little time.

Raist

I can't believe I just read 33 pages of this crap hoping to learn something. Not to sound rude, of course, the OP is a nice reference, as well as serious posts that came after it. Something to reflect on when you want to do the math to understand what your current gear is capable of compared to what you could be doing.

The basic recap that everyone should remember is that to maximize your damage output, the first thing you should do is build 26% of haste in your TP gear set. Stats such as accuracy are becoming almost unnecessary, especially in Abyssea. In fact, atmas seem to create a sort of "loophole" in the need for building certain stats for your WS or magic or whatever, further nurturing newer players, leading them to the belief that "gear isn't everything." Let's go back to the old days when doing a 2k+ damage WS meant you were a beast, and not average.

Anyway... Before I go too far off topic and say more than my half-asleep brain urges me to spew, I'll end with this neat little tool that's available free to the public, and doesn't hinder or enhance game-play in any way. It's merely used as a source of information. If you're lazy like me, you could go here: http://ffxicalculator.com/
The calculator does all the math (in terms of delay and accuracy, among other things) for you. Check it out!

I was never aware of just how much of an increase in damage moving from 75% to 80% delay reduction was. Thanks for the info.

Decided to make an excel sheet to assist the OP in showing this:

Currently its just for mnk/pup, and dual wield. I will add a section later for 2 handers and /sam.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...NDY0ZWEx&hl=en

Follow that, select file, download original.

Notes:
1)i did haste calcs in % form instead of the 1024 form, I will go back later and correct it but the difference is so marginal it wont change anything more then a few 0.0x%
2) Bard haste is assumed to be 25% (+2 march and af3 gloves)
3) any suggestions on what else to add or any calculations i goofed let me know.

I feel this better shows the difference between 24% haste and 25% haste (gear) since it factors in MA or dual wield, as well spell, songs, and JA

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Originally Posted by Relyk

There must have been like 20 posts calling people "bad" players which is both undescriptive and really just floors the level of the conversation. Inefficient, underperforming, casual may have described the situation better although I am in no way supporting either side with this statement.

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I think casual as an implied synonym with bad/inefficient/underperforming is a bit insulting to a casual player. Not gear swapping and learning to gear your jobs is not an example of a casual player - it is an example of a lazy/uncaring/undesirable one.

NICE Dfoley. didn't notice I was so close to capping haste on MNK if I /WHM and haste myself. Guess that explains why MNK is such a hate monger now with AF3 pieces on--and I only have 2 pieces completed so far.

Just a note for the future. When publishing to the web, save those office docs to the older compatability types (File/Save As and pick .XLS/.DOC format and not .XLSX/.DOCX). Not everyone has the newer Office products. I had the add-on conversion packet installed to revert it back to XLS though, but not everyone knows about that.

Raist

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Originally Posted by RAIST

NICE Dfoley. didn't notice I was so close to capping haste on MNK if I /WHM and haste myself.

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...or get the mages in your party to do it for you?

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Guess that explains why MNK is such a hate monger now with AF3 pieces on--and I only have 2 pieces completed so far.

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Many jobs can cap attack speed and haste now. It is a contributing factor to monk's strength, but it is far and away from being the sole reason.

okay fixed dual wield and changed the file type to xls

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...YTUwMGY4&hl=en

as a monk with spell haste, you are 20~30% away from the cap. You need bard and /dnc to reach it.

Ideally use brd/whm for 40% haste then use mnk/dnc to cap yourself.

@ Dooom

lol.. I usually do /DNC or /NIN for the survivablity factor, but sometimes I just know that, no matter what, I'm gonna die a lot so I'll /WHM just to make sure I have reraise up. Not ideal I know, but hell... MNK is just such a beast on it's own now, regardless of subjob. Even with just WHM Haste it is crazy enough... but when we manage to con someone to come BRD too... omfg it is INSANE. I really wish we had more SMN available--I miss being able to dish out the beat down sometimes...

Raist

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

okay fixed dual wield and changed the file type to xls

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...YTUwMGY4&hl=en

as a monk with spell haste, you are 20~30% away from the cap. You need bard and /dnc to reach it.

Ideally use brd/whm for 40% haste then use mnk/dnc to cap yourself.

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If you're giving a MNK bard support you may as well add a DNC main to the mix and go MNK/WAR =/

omg I wish. I can't EVEN go SAM/WAR anymore unless we are just flat out raping stuff in there. That Double Attack boost is just too much damage...among all the other wonderful goodies /WAR brings with it.... heheheheh. And don't EVEN get me started on DRG/SAM's TP gain <drool>.

Really sucks when you have to nerf yourself sometimes to stay alive...takes me back to when I used to play RNG... /sigh

Raist

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Originally Posted by RAIST

omg I wish. I can't EVEN go SAM/WAR anymore unless we are just flat out raping stuff in there. That Double Attack boost is just too much damage...among all the other wonderful goodies /WAR brings with it.... heheheheh. And don't EVEN get me started on DRG/SAM's TP gain <drool>.

Really sucks when you have to nerf yourself sometimes to stay alive...takes me back to when I used to play RNG... /sigh

Raist

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What is "too much damage"?

I had to get out the popcorn for this thread.

MMM popcorn! But seriously, if mages in abyssea cant keep you alive, there is an issue- unlimited mana pool, godly cureskin, etc and you're worried about dying? Time to find new mages.

hehe.. it's more that they don't want me to do it b/c I become too much an mp sponge. /WAR and /SAM can make so many jobs such hate mongers now. I usally have the gear to hold my own...took on 5 mandies the other night and killed them all after the "tank" died... but... meh. Held Sippoy on WHM once while the "tank" recovered from Weakness. I'm forever told to turn around on an NM so the NIN can get hate... asked not to WS so much... have to spam jumps to shed hate on DRG... I'm like WTF am I supposed to do, sit on my ass? It's frustrating sometimes how crazy hate is on some targets now. For the last month or so, they've always had me come WHM or SMN for the triggers...which is getting a little old. While it's always fun smacking things with Garuda...I'd like to feel the rush of beating something myself once in a while. But noooo... Cataclysm is bad... makes amber if it kills.... meh.

...no respect...

Raist

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Originally Posted by RAIST

hehe.. it's more that they don't want me to do it b/c I become too much an mp sponge. /WAR and /SAM can make so many jobs such hate mongers now. I usally have the gear to hold my own...took on 5 mandies the other night and killed them all after the "tank" died... but... meh. Held Sippoy on WHM once while the "tank" recovered from Weakness. I'm forever told to turn around on an NM so the NIN can get hate... asked not to WS so much... have to spam jumps to shed hate on DRG... I'm like WTF am I supposed to do, sit on my ass? It's frustrating sometimes how crazy hate is on some targets now. For the last month or so, they've always had me come WHM or SMN for the triggers...which is getting a little old. While it's always fun smacking things with Garuda...I'd like to feel the rush of beating something myself once in a while. But noooo... Cataclysm is bad... makes amber if it kills.... meh.

...no respect...

Raist

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The problem doesn't seem to be with you, it seems to be with them.

OMG not another 'I dont swap gear because then the mage cant cure me" bs. As someone that mains whm and rdm, this is total bs. This is sheer laziness, and bragging that you lead/sack w/e in a ls is doing no justice to them because you are a sheer moron. Been playing since 2007? and you dont know how to gear swap to optimize play? that is nothing to brag about. But yet you sit here and bash on people for trying to help you improve. Obviously you and anyone else that holds this position needs to not post n forums until you learn how to play the game. And you accuse people of trying to troll you/harrass you for giving you tips on gameplay?Seriously what drugs are you on. This is not opinion, it is fact, math >your self righteous blabber on some forum that you think will get noticed. Pease don't indulge us anymore with your pitiful excuses for a melee not swapping gear.

I think you're a few pages too late :P

So I put on haste gear and I don't notice my casting going faster. What am I doing wrong? Is this a bug?????

I'm being very sincere when I say this, so bring on the tough love.
I've been playing this game since the release of the NA ps2 release (off and on). In times past I use to gear swap, but as I got older and took on more responsibilities, this game turned more into a leisure thing and I do what the capacity of my brain will let me. :P
So I don't gear swap anymore, I sorta try to find that happy medium, and i have varying sets of gear I use for one job based off a situation but I don't change them that much to count as gear swapping. And I'm in no way in disagreement over fact. Math doesn't lie. But does that make me a bad player? I'd like to think skill vs gear can find a happy medium.
Educate me. Thanks :)

Yea probably lol. I didnt follow this thread step by step then saw this same bs about not gear swapping elsewhere and read this one. Jus saw a lot of the posts and the brag sigs and had to laugh. Finished cop the hard way and started playing in 2007? Okay, i need some of w/e they are on. A sack and shell holder and doesnt know that haste improves dps output? And doesnt swap gear to improve said output? this has nothing to do with being an elitist, this has to do with common f***ing sense.

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Originally Posted by Yarly

So I put on haste gear and I don't notice my casting going faster. What am I doing wrong? Is this a bug?????

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Haste doesn't affect casting time...that's Fast Cast traits. Haste reduces delays between actions, not the speed of the action itself, so it reduces the time between things like when you swing your weapon again and the cool down timer between recasting the same spell.

Raist

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Originally Posted by Avidon

I'm being very sincere when I say this, so bring on the tough love.
I've been playing this game since the release of the NA ps2 release (off and on). In times past I use to gear swap, but as I got older and took on more responsibilities, this game turned more into a leisure thing and I do what the capacity of my brain will let me. :P
So I don't gear swap anymore, I sorta try to find that happy medium, and i have varying sets of gear I use for one job based off a situation but I don't change them that much to count as gear swapping. And I'm in no way in disagreement over fact. Math doesn't lie. But does that make me a bad player? I'd like to think skill vs gear can find a happy medium.
Educate me. Thanks :)

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To be honest it's really not that bad to set up basic macros, and the Improvement : Effort ratio is enormous. It may take 2 minutes to change your WS macro to include going from Walahra Turban to Varangian Helm and back, and each time you WS after that macro is set up you are reaping benefits from it. Obviously that's only a single slot being changed, but even just that one slot makes a huge difference in your damage output. Doing that even for just a couple slots is tons better than not doing it at all, and really isn't much work.

Yeah you're right man. lol. I'm being such a lazy ass. I guess if I'm paying for a game and invest time into it, no matter how tired and shot my brain is at the end of the day, I should try to make the best of it. And it'll only improve myself as a player.
/sigh better start working on some builds. And as for my pld, Haste is a god sent because as for the moment we wont be used for anything but what little Dps we can offer. (I say that realizing I have no grounds on which to back that claim up.)
Thanks again GG.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

hehe.. it's more that they don't want me to do it b/c I become too much an mp sponge. /WAR and /SAM can make so many jobs such hate mongers now. I usally have the gear to hold my own...took on 5 mandies the other night and killed them all after the "tank" died... but... meh. Held Sippoy on WHM once while the "tank" recovered from Weakness. I'm forever told to turn around on an NM so the NIN can get hate... asked not to WS so much... have to spam jumps to shed hate on DRG... I'm like WTF am I supposed to do, sit on my ass? It's frustrating sometimes how crazy hate is on some targets now. For the last month or so, they've always had me come WHM or SMN for the triggers...which is getting a little old. While it's always fun smacking things with Garuda...I'd like to feel the rush of beating something myself once in a while. But noooo... Cataclysm is bad... makes amber if it kills.... meh.

...no respect...

Raist

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I often find myself telling several people not to fight certain NMs and to let the "pros" handle it. But I only do this when the situation sees fit. If you can't put out sufficient dps to make up for the tp you're feeding to the targets, you're better off not getting in the way. That's not to say I don't give people a chance. If they can't perform up to standard, they are only hurting the cause. That's why I find this thread helpful to people who are willing to learn to adapt and improve themselves, so they aren't constantly asked to sit on the side twiddling their thumbs.

Edit: with 1-2 above average WHMs, TP feed shouldn't really be an issue with a majority of NMs that are popular today, so if anyone is dying, you can put the blame on your slacking mages.

In your case Raist, it sounds like your DRG should be up there tanking and you should fire the NIN that can't keep up enough dps to maintain a solid hold on hate (although since enmity has a cap that's easy to reach, it's almost impossible for any single person to have hate at all times, assuming everyone is doing their job correctly).

With Abyssea, it's obvious which jobs are most useful for the biggest situations, namely triggering NM weaknesses. When you want a WAR and NIN on the front line, and you bring say RNG or BST or DRG, you are definitely going to be doing a lot of bench warming. That's not to say they are completely useless, but most situations wouldn't generally call for them. In the end, it's all situational.

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Originally Posted by Avidon

Yeah you're right man. lol. I'm being such a lazy ass. I guess if I'm paying for a game and invest time into it, no matter how tired and shot my brain is at the end of the day, I should try to make the best of it. And it'll only improve myself as a player.
/sigh better start working on some builds. And as for my pld, Haste is a god sent because as for the moment we wont be used for anything but what little Dps we can offer. (I say that realizing I have no grounds on which to back that claim up.)
Thanks again GG.

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This is too great, I cried a little inside.

Does gear haste effect casting times as well?

recasting time, but not casting time--that's Fast Cast.

Raist

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Originally Posted by RAIST

recasting time, but not casting time--that's Fast Cast.

Raist

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Tis what I was referring to. Thanks.

yeah, now if you can combine fast cast gear and haste gear, that would be sexy ^.^

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

yeah, now if you can combine fast cast gear and haste gear, that would be sexy ^.^

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Homam Cosciales