[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

i got a question . if i have been away from ffxi for 5 years , how many updates can i expect

Camate has addressed feedback and tweaks to all jobs that received an update this patch except PLD and RDM and WHM. I think every other job has had its abilities altered, shortened, strengthened or adjusted in some way except Palisade/Temper/Spontaneity.

SCH: Klaustra/Embrava/Tabula Rasa boosts
SMN: Stunga casting time
BLM: Comet damage
DRG: Steady Wing strengthened.
NIN: That new Parry JA enhanced
SAM: Hagakure recast reduced.
BRD: Pianissmo reduced and Mercado potency reduced.
BLU: Dark Orb MP reduced, Heavy Strike accuracy reduced.
BST: Pets being voted on right now on BST forums.
RNG: I don't think this was adjusted but they gave evidence and reasons why.

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Oh no! Jobs meant to do multiple things would be desired due to their ability to do multiple things, particular when a lot of one thing isn't needed!

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When your primary, designated job for healing does one thing well, and offers little else yeah. It's a problem. WHM should be the go to being a 'main healer'. And if you want to go without it, invite more hybrids or other jobs that help reduce damage.

ToAU's exp/meriting system was nothing short of a pox on the game and a serenade to mindless melees. Why do you think I want a variant endgame and more variant forms of job play?

I'm not saying remove RDM and SCH from the healers list completely, but tone down their position so that WHM is still a consideration even when their curing ability is overkill, and give RDM and SCH more availability and viability in differing departments so that inviting any combination of these doesn't seem so counter-productive. (Same for giving WHM something to offer in lesser cure Demanding situations.) I'm in support of this for Melee jobs as well.

There shouldn't be any 'one right answer' to approach a situation, regardless of its difficulty. The idea of what makes an MMO so worthwhile is that it is so large and variant.

SE has been doing a fairly good job so far enforcing this approach, in spite of some of the short-sighted bawwing I keep seeing.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

There shouldn't be any 'one right answer' to approach a situation, regardless of its difficulty. The idea of what makes an MMO so worthwhile is that it is so large and variant.

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"We need a white mage, nothing else will do". There's your variety, how do you like it?

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

then, as far as a ja/spell to gain access to ex ws's... i'm sorta hoping we just GET those with the coming proficiency update. rather than atatching them to a spell.

as for fencer.. i don't think it would really outweigh DW. i'd be equally happy if SE just stopped trolling rdm's everywhere and changed the damn name..

healing is a tough one.... not only do we not wanna step on whms toes... but you also need to figure in scholar.. should scholar be a better or worse healer than rdm? because that effects where rdm needs to land, since you may need to leave room between rdm and whm for sch.
for rdm anyway..
1) i'd like to see composure changed, so it effects all members. then give regen3/4 to rdm. with composures duration buff, that becomes a LOT of hp recovered for the mp spent.. it doesn't really solve the "holy shit!" problem but it's a step in the right direction. think about it... regen4 fulltimed?

or

2)alternately, i'd like to see the enmity reductions for cure 5 (and maybe 6) removed, then give whm a significantly stronger tranquil heart trait. make it so they break even (may even buff them when you consider cure4) while making room for rdm or sch to cure5 if it's really critical. it needs to be limited somehow.. regardless of how much "better" whm can cure, if rdm/whm could FREELY cast cure5.. that would be "good enough" and we'd likely be right back to toau.

or

3) lets just get way more fast cast? like a crazy amount. to the point where we can fire off 2 cure4's in the time it takes a whm to do 1 cure5. there is an issue here with that being crazy overpowered when you consider stuff like utsusemi or sleep, but it's something to toy with. maybe just lower the recast on cures?

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I agree, although we really should get fencer for times when we're not /NIN or /DNC. I often find that I'm /DRK or /SCH in fights, having Fencer as a native JT would be handy.

I'm pretty big on HOT's for RDM, they fit right into our style. People keep seeing Regen as healing magic, it's not. The Regen series is enhancing magic and all rules apply, including the crazy long self casts with composure and the 80~90% bonus duration with Emp Armor on others. SE was cheap as hell for making Regen II as lv 75 spell, it should of been lv 60 wtih Regen's III-IV being given by 90. They then need to create a special RDM only Regen that is incredibly potent and scales with enhancing magic, but only lasts 30s (10 ticks). This would be similar to SCH's helix's only a heal for PT members.

WHM would still have the raw cure power, but RDM could step in and support the WHM's much easier then me sprinkling cure IV's everywhere. I can see giving SCH cure V under Apend White, it would limit them enough that they couldn't access their DA abilities without wasting a charge. Then as a coupe de grace, make accession work with ALL enhancing magic period, end of story. Refresh II -ga, Haste ga, Regen III/IV -ga, Temper -ga, whatever it should work. Even RR-ga would be on the table due to the insane casting / recasting time it would involve.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm not saying remove RDM and SCH from the healers list completely, but tone down their position so that WHM is still a consideration even when their curing ability is overkill, and give RDM and SCH more availability and viability in differing departments so that inviting any combination of these doesn't seem so counter-productive. (Same for giving WHM something to offer in lesser cure Demanding situations.) I'm in support of this for Melee jobs as well.

There shouldn't be any 'one right answer' to approach a situation, regardless of its difficulty. The idea of what makes an MMO so worthwhile is that it is so large and variant.

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Ideally, I'd want a creative solution that would let all jobs with Healing and Enhancing ability work together for difficult content while also allowing any one of those jobs to fill the role for more laid-back content in a smaller group. I'm not really sure what kind of spells would accomplish this, but Cure IV forever is a pretty boring way to keep people alive when it is sufficient.

There's always going to be one choice that's better by some margin, since FFXI is built out of math equations. I'm fine with this as long as the options are appealing enough for it to feel like a choice.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

"We need a white mage, nothing else will do". There's your variety, how do you like it?

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Sounds a whole lot like the ToAU mentality that players never evolved out of, actually.

Except back then it was 'Red Mage'.

If some people insist on having one person to bear the responsibility (and therefore, the blame) for their healing duties, that is on them. For the 99 endgame, there needs to be a different role or niche to bring to the table for each job, or SE failed in the intent of their manifesto.

White Mage is "THE Healer.", and if elitists insist that means they the only way to do things, then they can watch their community shrink as the alternatives get larger and more enjoyable. Otherwise, as their are plenty of underused hybrid jobs in the game, the best way to assure the increase of their use is to tone back the general healing power of the base (Save for the healing specialist), and make a game that relies upon an intelligent defense rather than an overpowering healing or damage output.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Ideally, I'd want a creative solution that would let all jobs with Healing and Enhancing ability work together for difficult content while also allowing any one of those jobs to fill the role for more laid-back content in a smaller group. I'm not really sure what kind of spells would accomplish this, but Cure IV forever is a pretty boring way to keep people alive when it is sufficient.

There's always going to be one choice that's better by some margin, since FFXI is built out of math equations. I'm fine with this as long as the options are appealing enough for it to feel like a choice.

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I don't understand why this is so difficult for people.

Gradual regeneration would be the answer to this circumstance. The biggest danager that would be the issue as far as keeping WHM in it's spot is the fact that it the most consistent burst healer in the game. Dancer has long timers on its heals, Soulsouther puppets have uncontrolled targeting, and Blue Mage has limited space/MP to use it with.

But any of these paired in with less intensity needed in curing is more than fine.

Where RDM and SCH can fill in, as it's a gap, is a sustained healing over time. The biggest standing concern really against Cure IV besides the hate is that we have to cast it over and over again to manage our gradual cure. So the solution would be of course to give us a stronger cure over time.

In other words: Regen.

The simple and most effective solution, in my view is this:

Give Regen III to Red Mage an Scholar both, make it Accessionable.

Then give Scholar a 'Curehelix' that restores HP exactly in the same fashion as a Helix spell does, but effected by Cure Potency gear on the initial tic.

Give RDM a Debuff to, at the very minimum, reduce the damage inflicted by TP moves. (Perhaps a fast cast, limiting recast spell that severely hampers the damage of the next enemy TP move).

If both of these factors are not enough to count them as "Viable" for long term healing, repeat the process with Regen IV for one or both of the jobs.

As far as Short term, spike healing, there are plenty of jobs now that have burst healing available, use them.

SCH has Regen III, also SCH should really get Regen IV and maybe even V way before WHM. I've never understood how they got Regen and Regen II earlier than WHM but not III or IV.

I like the helix idea for SCH, maybe as an idea to aid the party RDM could just get an Enhancing Spell like BLU's new new one that grants a set % of -Damage taken, maybe even stick to the Phalanx line and call it Phalanx III (party targetable).

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher"

I like the helix idea for SCH, maybe as an idea to aid the party RDM could just get an Enhancing Spell like BLU's new new one that grants a set % of -Damage taken, maybe even stick to the Phalanx line and call it Phalanx III (party targetable).

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With Phalanx II as a merit spell, you'd have to remove the catagory and give us the spell natively for us to receive a tier III in all fairness.

Not that you'd hear me complain if that were the case, mind you.

But I would also like an Enfeeble that was straight damage reduction of a TP move, or other consequence to it that would give RDM's some leeway on these TP move Heavy mobs.

In any case, RDM's direction towards being a better 'healer' should really be more in preventing damage rather than curing it. But no augments here about them getting Regen IV. But lets leave the burst curing to the jobs that currently have it, and give SCH and RDM a more gradual recovery scale. It's likely the best way to increase their potential and not step on WHM's toes so much.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Ideally, I'd want a creative solution that would let all jobs with Healing and Enhancing ability work together for difficult content while also allowing any one of those jobs to fill the role for more laid-back content in a smaller group. I'm not really sure what kind of spells would accomplish this, but Cure IV forever is a pretty boring way to keep people alive when it is sufficient.

There's always going to be one choice that's better by some margin, since FFXI is built out of math equations. I'm fine with this as long as the options are appealing enough for it to feel like a choice.

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INSPIRATION!!

you know that new earring that had "potency of cure effect RECIEVED +5%"? lets make that a spell! give it a strong duration, single targetable, and HEAVILY influenced by enhancing magic skill (this way if they decide to give it to whm later we may still have the "better" version) you put it on your tank, and huzzah!

then in a bigger group situation, this is still helpful even if you have a whm. you're helping him cure more efficiently. this also mitigates the issue of being as overpowered as giving rdm cure5 proper because you can't cast these bigger cures freely, you have to setup and "predict" who is going to be taking the damage. and if you end up "needing" it on 4-5 melees.. well.. then you get a whm?

Needs to break the potency cap, or be calculated differently but not bad imo. I'll mull over it later.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Lots of stuff about Regen

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Sometimes I have to wonder if we're even playing the same game Hyrist. I love regen to death and abused it shamelessly whenever possible, but as it currently stands Regens aren't a realistic approach to keeping people Not Dead.

If you want Regens to be even remotely viable, you're going to have to overhaul the entire spell line and even then you're still going to run into balance issues because all you're accomplishing is buffing White Mages to make them even more overpowered than they already are. Anyone who thinks White Mage is ever getting dethroned has their head stuck in a 2005 colibri merit party and is completely out of touch with how the game works in 2011. White Mage is king and nothing is going to put a dent in its powerbase short of SE bludgeoning it to death with the nerf bat.

Speaking purely outside of Abyssea, this is true to an extent cid, unlike back then WHM has access to most of RDM's means of MP longevity. The fact that all jobs do now means they no longer have to heavily rely on RDM to support them like in the olden days. However there is a degree where the ToAU days could happen again when you consider the following

-HP pools are not 2-4k outside of Abyssea giving Cure IV/V greater impact
-RDM is still the king of mp longevity
-Buffs last longer giving greater mp returns and more casting leeway
-More available fast cast and cure potency gear

RDM might NOT be the best of the best at curing, but as long as the payload is manageable where one person can take sole responsibilities for the mage duties most wont think twice about giving up a second mage for another melee even if it's less than optimal or detrimental to performance. And sad as it is to say, most people have not grown out of the bird camp mindset even with the introduction of Abyssea, it just pushed other jobs into the bandwagon positions with triggers and high DPS/Nuke/Cure numbers.

Again, Cid, you speak of HNM endgame a if it is the entirety of FFXI. You really should be on my ignore list by now but somehow I seem to have masochistic tenancies to listen to you.

Red Mage does NOT need burst healing to be considered a "Viable Healer", and if you need a burst healer, you need someone besides Red Mage to do it.

As far as general healing purposes, situations in which your players' HP don't go from full to near empty from 1 move. RDM just needs a more potent healing over time to offset Cure IV spam. My take is that Regen 4 and better damage prevention spells is suited better for this instance.

You really need to get your head out of the boxed-in mentality you've sunk yourself into. Red Mage should be more about damage prevention than HP restoration. Cure V is not the answer to RDM's woes in being a support, and it most certainly does not need to be another 'main' healer.

And completely ignoring the White Mage argument; there are 4 other jobs in the game with Cure V capacity or higher, on top of EVERY job capable of at the very least subbing cure 4. You don't need more, nor does RDM need Cure V to get by. That's a bad cop-out to fix what the job REALLY needs, which is some TP attack mitigation.

What 4 other jobs? I count 1, and it's called Whm. Dnc is a 23(?) second timer, Blu is Cure 4.5/aga 4.5 with no access to as much cure potency/fast cast/recast, Sch is 4.5 while blowing strategems slowing down their healing capability.

As long as SE refuses on the basis 'it would make the game too easy' it is the easiest solution over... absolutely nothing they've implemented so far.

Clarification, four other jobs aside from Red Mage and Scholar.

WHM Cure V, Cure VI

Soulsoother (Puppetmaster): Cure V, Cure VI

Blue Mage: Plenilune Embrace (Belittle if it you want it is still burst healing category, and cry more on the Cure potency, you gain an Atk/Matk bonus from the spell. What are you doing with that Add-on gear anyways?)

Dancer: Curing Waltz V (Learn when to use it properly and you won't have a problem with the timer.)

Any one of the Hybrids + a RDM or a SCH can manage the curing load of all but the toughest category of mobs without any need of Cure V. Just because these are not your spam-happy classes does not mean the combinations are not viable. Even the non WHM jobs can handle specific curing loads for NMs and events on their own of the circumstances are right for it.

If you need spammed burst high damage curing, then of course you would need the curing specialist (Read:WHM) or you would need better damage mitigation.

This idea of approaching an event with brain-dead melees with paper thin defenses (Read, little to no PDT/MDT gear), and complaining that your cure power isn't high enough to make up for bad defense set ups and tactics isn't intelligent game development or even game-play.

For Red Mage, development should take the route of providing better damage mitigation, not taking on some arbitrary spell that pulls RDM further away from being the enfeebler/enhancer everyone's crying for them to be.

I've yet to hear a valid argument for more burst curing jobs in general play in the game that doesn't amount to lazy invite habits and the cure version of BNS. Seriously, why would you want Cure V over spells that would PREVENT more damage? Same goal met, different method, and more usefulness in endgame events in which you're going to end up with a WHM + RDM anyways, and this way you're wasting less HP cured than if you both wound up hitting Cure V and over-topping the player.

Because at this point, you might as well call it as a decision between those two solutions because the likely won't develop former due to balance issues if you give RDM the latter.

You can throw PUP out the window because its AI is retarded. Once again, a healing spell on a 23 second timer and requiring TP and locking them out of using any other support ability related to healing does not a healer make. If Cure V was on a 23 secone timer and you couldn't use Erase/na's in the meantime, do you really think anyone would bring a whm for anything?

My add-on gear is locked into ws/cure potency hat for rdm, dw/acc body for melee, and soon to be cure pot/PDT legs for rdm and whm (whm only benefits from the PDT). And no, I do not care that much about BLU to make add-on augments for it. My main job is still Rdm.

Until RDM gets a useful buff, there's no reason to use it over WHM simply because WHM can do the same job and neither job has MP issues these days if geared properly. RDM brings Dia III to the table (-5% DEF over Dia II), but it has to sub Scholar or White Mage for status removal. My poorly geared White Mage mule subs Thief in Dynamis and keeps me alive through 5-mob Aeolian Edge spamming pulls without downtime.

Temper could have been that buff, if it was 3~4 times as potent and party-target. It isn't, so it's not.


I've turned the problem with supporting role RDM into this handy decision tree:
1) How much Refresh do you need for what you're doing? (2 - A lot!, 4 - Not Much)
2) How hard does what you're fighting hit? (3 - Really Hard!, X - Why do you need a lot of Refresh then?)
3) End: Okay, go WHM/RDM
4) Is what you're doing affected by Treasure Hunter? (5 - Yes, 8 - Not rly)
5) Are there any status debuffs? (6 - Yes, 7 - No)
6) End. Go WHM/THF
7) End. Go RDM, WHM, or SCH/THF
8) End. Go any job with Cure IV

So if you were going to gear one job with Cure IV for the purpose of filling a supporting role, White Mage should be that job.

I agree, we don't need cure5, we should heal as well as a brd/whm, it only makes sense.

We also shouldn't balance around the most challenging, fun, rewarding content in the game. We should be balancing jobs around la theine worm pts, not voidwatch!

40 HP regen ticks is also going to outheal those 1k+ gas/t4's/tp moves with capped PDT/MDT sets!

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Again, Cid, you speak of HNM endgame a if it is the entirety of FFXI. You really should be on my ignore list by now but somehow I seem to have masochistic tenancies to listen to you.

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It's because I bring up legitimate points, even if they make you uncomfortable.

What you're basically arguing for Hyrist is that our healing capacity should be limited to being useful on stuff that any evasion heavy class could solo with relative ease and no outside assistance. That's an extremely limited scope of usefulness.

That's exactly how RDM and SCH healing works, we can mainheal stuff that.....evasion jobs can pretty much solo or can solo. Yay?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

You can throw PUP out the window because its AI is retarded. Once again, a healing spell on a 23 second timer and requiring TP and locking them out of using any other support ability related to healing does not a healer make. If Cure V was on a 23 secone timer and you couldn't use Erase/na's in the meantime, do you really think anyone would bring a whm for anything?

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*headdesk*

You're really not following.

You bring the listed jobs above for your acclaimed 'Cure V'.

23 second Cure V is nothing in these situations because you're divying up the cure load. In this case your DNC dose't need to have erase or need to care about anything else but to spot heavy damage and cure it. Satus removes are coverd by your present SCH or RDM and there's absolutely no need for Cure V on behalf of either of those jobs in the presence of a hybrid.

Atomoton AI is easy to understand. Status Removals first, then it cures itself/master (whoever has highest enmity), Then whoever has the highest enmity in the party in that order. Once you understand the rules it's easy to make it a potent cure presence.

It's that players are lazy and don't want to work beyond their zerg mentalities to figure these things out, or to actually make them work as they were designed.

And you've still not addressed the core argument here: Why are you asking for cure V when our damage mitigation is a more important (and more core) part of our class?

In the end all I'm hearing is "Whaaa we're not popular anymore!" and wanting Cure V so they can bump WHM back off the invite list for anything that's not HNMs, which also bumps off Hybrids off general party slots for more 'Pure DDs'.

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What you're basically arguing for Hyrist is that our healing capacity should be limited to being useful on stuff that any evasion heavy class could solo with relative ease and no outside assistance. That's an extremely limited scope of usefulness

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You've got the degree of limit wrong, but yes, Red Mages and Scholars curing capacity should be limited. I'd go so far as to say curing capacity in the game itself should be more limited than what it is, WHM included, but that ship has sailed. There doesn't need to be more than one healer class that is frankly OP in the healing department. Healing 'Capasity' can be filled by pairing a light healer with a job like Dancer, Puppetmater, Blue Mage, etc to split out the curing load for everything NOT required of a WHM to manage (which is basically HNM endgame.) That way, you MUST choose between a wider birth of combinations, rather than RDM, SCH, WHM. Because, flatly, not everyone is going to want to play a WHM, and, like any other prima job, it's not always available.

And a better choice than simply giving RDM more cure, is to give them MORE POTENT DEBUFFS. You could achieve the same results you desire through that route instead of pouting about Cure V, AND be more useful for high NM endgame in the same motion.

At the bare minimum, that route should be attempted first in the test server before SE caves and gives RDM and SCH a potentially very toxic spell.

The /headdesk is thinking the auto or Dnc are viable at using their cure V variants outside of... pretty much never for dnc, and if PUP AI was so 'easy to control' Pups wouldn't be clamoring for a fix to the automaton's behaviour. You're ignoring the fact for 23 seconds the DNC is completely incapable of supporting the party in -any- way whatsoever from using Waltz V. If your support is only good for casting one spell every 23 seconds then your support healing is pretty lol. I'm also confident the auto suffers from a similar problem to summoner elementals.

Wait are you suggesting a pt of Dnc + Whm + Rdm or Sch really? With Dnc using Waltz 5 once every 23 second to 'support' the party? Am I reading this right?

It's not that players don't want to make things work, and it's not that players don't try to make these things work; it's that some things do not work. Plenty of people have tried to wring blood out of these stones, only to give up.

Curing Waltz V goes above and beyond a twenty-three second recast. It disables any and all Waltzes for twenty-three seconds. Congratulations, the guy with whom you're divvying up healing duties is now just another melee in range of various Area of Effect stuff for the next twenty-three seconds. Many a sad soul in many a sad subligar has used this ability once only to go back to "Curing Waltz III 4EVAR" because of this.

How effective a Soulsoother can be at healing depends more on the monster in question than the group in question. Also, a healer needs to be 100% reliable more than anyone in any role, and this isn't something a puppet can provide without staggering amounts of effort against even the easiest of content.

It's true that Blue Mage has some awesome spells to restore HP. I really like Blue Mage's unique take on healing with stuff like Peeonallofthem Embrace and (as of next week) White Wind. I think Blue Mage is a really good example of where not-White Mage jobs with healing capacity should stand, while Dancer and Puppetmaster are definitely not.

would have been nice if it was pt member castable....
even so. its not a bad spell... and yes rdm is a weak melee
will this fix rdm weak melee? not at all... there is the problem
stack this with giving rdm an A sword skill (at least A- like blu), what seperates a job like pld from rdm should be A+ to A- not ~30 skill points :( (even more when u consider pld and blu get sword boosts from gear). our gear is highly favored to mage as well. i dunno bout it yet. we'll see i guess

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Originally Posted by Anucris

would have been nice if it was pt member castable....
even so. its not a bad spell... and yes rdm is a weak melee
will this fix rdm weak melee? not at all... there is the problem
stack this with giving rdm an A sword skill (at least A- like blu), what seperates a job like pld from rdm should be A+ to A- not ~30 skill points :( (even more when u consider pld and blu get sword boosts from gear). our gear is highly favored to mage as well. i dunno bout it yet. we'll see i guess

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No, because RDM is a Buffer/Healer/Nuker class, with the CAPABILITY to solo DD and should not rival BLU, or else it would make the class irrelevant and a waste of designer time. This is why RDM does not get our DD WSs natively and why they are given a sword skill too low to rival our own. They also receive no native DD traits, therefore, it is not a DD class of any sort. The point of being a DD is that you are given traits or the capability to receive traits that enhance your DD capability. As most RDMs in this thread know, I'm the one that comes in when the post with a crown on it get s posted in. Hi, I'm Scuro, and I'll be putting out this fire today. BTW Shiyo a pleasure as always to see you fighting the good fight haha.

P.S
In defense of PUP's as a PUP enthusiast myself, there is nothing wrong with the AI when it comes to curing, just PUPs bitch when they have to work hard to actually be fantastic at the job as it is capable of. While PUP isn't the best main party curer, god damn can it cure people in a pinch (my cousin (PUP) kept me (BLU) healed against a pugil in golden salvage at 75 with his automaton as we duo'd it, and killed it). Of course it can't save someone that is taking damage like a ugly red headed step child. In short, PUPs want the ability to not be good at their job, and still be acknowledged as skilled at it.

du-du-du-duh~ Everyone fear, Scuro is here! Misconceptions and skewed view of a job he has at lvl 47 is his specialty, cause he obviously knows how to play it better than a lvl 95 career rdm!

Must we go over this again, you're labeling a class based off the gear available to it. Same thing can be said about blu due to the gear they have available including the buffs and nukes which also has gear tailored to this form of play in the form of AF3. Heck, in some situations a blu nuke is far superior to that of a rdm nuke, we also have cures equal to Cure V and Curaga IV~V, the only draw back being the hate generated...oh wait...rdm has that same problem. Blu has buffs that can in some cases only be transferred over to others by use of a JA....oh wait, rdm has that same problem. About the only thing that seperates blu from rdm difinitively is the Physical damage spells, higher sword skill, and access to certain ws natively. Then again the WS difference becomes negligible if both have Almace. Gear has been added that brings rdm haste and WS sets up some this time also, leaving the only gap primarily present is the Attack and ~+10-20 dex difference depending on the layout of the blu's spell set. So the comparison isn't so much Apples to oranges, as it is Lemon to Lime.

Then you consider the fact Rdm has access to gear that can also increase Crit Dmg (Onerios Knife), which if I recall was found to be 5~10% increase, new da% on a slot they can afford to leave in place over other options (neck slot). New swords? Rdm are on those too. There is a variety of gear set combinations becoming available to rdm as of late that also increases the main attribute for CDC. So, unless you are willing to put the time and effort into leveling rdm, getting a gear set and ws set situated as well as use tools available to rdm in spell form to further enhance melee damage on rdm....you really have no right to come into the forums, crown or not, and state what a rdm can and cannot do. You have no first hand experience, you're wholly biased in opinion, and the roles you state rdm fits perfectly you fail to see that blu fits them also. Do everyone a favor and come back when you actually can apply a firmly weighted and unbiased knowledge to a discussion.

Also, blu gets -nothing- natively in the form of passive traits. All traits are subject to Subjob, merits, or the combination of spells, some of which are absolutely useless in practice and require sacrificing something else in order to gain (wow, that sounds similar to what rdm has to do to get passive traits they don't have natively, doesn't it?). All of the traits blu is capable of attaining is "gimped" compared to the real passive traits. SE even stated that, despite general acceptance, the Double attack trait blu is able to create is 7% compared to War's 10% native passive trait.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Misconceptions and skewed view of a job he has at lvl 47 is his specialty, cause he obviously knows how to play it better than a lvl 95 career rdm!

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It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

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Doesn't take away from the posts multiple points though.

Enmity is technically less of a problem due to Tranquil Heart + I know Rdm can now cap cure potency and have ~-50 enmity in gear as well.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Enmity is technically less of a problem due to Tranquil Heart + I know Rdm can now cap cure potency and have ~-50 enmity in gear as well.

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The point isn't that rdm has lower enmity, blu/rdm gets the same options and can get just as much -enmity in gear. The point was, that either way the job will gain more enmity from cure bombing unless someone is shedding hate of them (such as a thf using accomplice/collaborator) than that of a whm dropping V/VI which has less enmity than Cure, Plenilune, or White Wind. Just because the job can fit the role, doesn't mean it was ment to was the point I was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

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Scuro is trying to state rdm is a cookie cutter job that must conform or the person playing it is gimp/wrong. The problem being that rdm has no specific role/necessity because the role they fill changes based on the subjob used and the situation. Just like blu is able to adapt to various situations, so is rdm capable of doing so. Rdm/blm is good for crowd control, Rdm/whm is a good back up healer much like Rdm/sch is also but goes further by having the option to turn buffs into AOE form. Blu/whm, blu/rdm, and blu/sch can all fit the backup healer/buffer role also, they also have spells for crowd control and nuking with gear to back up this role (heck my blu gets +37mab from gear easily with ability to go up to 45 not to mention access to +mnd/int/mp/hmp gear). Blue magic skill and enfeebling is both A+ to Blu or Rdm respectively with access to macc/skill gear to further increase duration/land rate of enfeeble based magics both have access to. By 99, any /rdm or /whm will have access to haste meaning the few spells rdm has the option to cast on others for buff purpose is null/void as an argumentative point that rdm is "king of enhancing" which Scuro loves to toss around at times.

With this on the table it becomes almost condescending to state that a job with the ability to melee should never do so regardless of gear or situation unless solo. Between the gear, spell buffs, subjob options, and situations we see in today's "endgame" scene or daily activity....there honestly isn't a whole lot keeping rdm as a end-all-be-all back line job anymore. This means the view of how jobs react to given situations can and should vary depending on the players ability to perform the different roles. Just like my rdm has several different sets of gear so too does my blu, because I never know when I may need to take a back seat and fill the back-up role of a nuker or healer. The end point is to at least be prepared for it. FFXI isn't Stick-in-the-mud 2005 anymore, it's 2011 and rdm has a good deal of props and tricks up their sleeves to be more than what they have been since the old days of "do it this way or gtfo." The key is the situation you're in.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Doesn't take away from the posts multiple points though.

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That and like I pointed out in an older post, jobs are only complex as you make them out to be. Any RDM who has pride in their efforts know damn well it can be the hardest job to maintain at an efficient level because of it's capacity to do so much. RDM however does needs time to cast their very extensive list of spells to become efficient and worthwhile which works well in long fights, BLU's strength lies in zerg tactics (magic or melee) dealing out massive damage as quickly as possible. Conversely, BLU's lack mp efficiency and tends to run out quickly (and die quickly from hate spikes) making it difficult in long fights, RDM on the other hand have slow nukes with spike damage a good league behind dedicated nukers and with monsters dieing within 30 seconds more than half our spells become pointless to cast which reduces our optimalness significantly in zerg situations.

If anything RDM need's some form of significant "spike" damage/cure for this constant zerg fest that's overtaken the game. SE has pretty much said no for Cure V and most would probably believe Teir V nukes are out of the question, that pretty much limits much of our potential spike growth in the melee section, pending we don't get some ridiculously high amounts of MAB in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

The point isn't that rdm has lower enmity, blu/rdm gets the same options and can get just as much -enmity in gear. The point was, that either way the job will gain more enmity from cure bombing unless someone is shedding hate of them (such as a thf using accomplice/collaborator) than that of a whm dropping V/VI which has less enmity than Cure, Plenilune, or White Wind. Just because the job can fit the role, doesn't mean it was ment to was the point I was trying to make.

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Not sure what you're trying to say here then, since that applies to several jobs in FF.

Blu nukes are typically cheaper but they don't benefit from affinity staves, and bar regurgitation and few others many have long recasts/prohibitive casting distances.

Rdm never had a lot of spells to cast on others to begin with... I don't see how sub jobs getting haste changes this.

Mostly agree with the final paragraph but honestly, I found this entire update, fairly lackluster. Hopefully SE will fix their issues with adjustments they intended to implement and set up a timetable for when we ca nexpect them.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Not sure what you're trying to say here then, since that applies to several jobs in FF.

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Once again you seemed to have only looked at the over all enmity downfall of what was said. The goal was to show that because the job can fit a back-up role of healer, it doesn't mean that is the primary function of the job and should not be a point to satisfy a "primary role/position" of a job. I placed the application of blu being able to fill this role to show to someone who has never played rdm (scuro) that the same pitfalls a blu run into with this, a rdm runs into. Neither is made to be Cure-bombers, but both can fill a backup healer role if the situation calls for it. Situational role positioning of the job, not primary focal point of the job.

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Blu nukes are typically cheaper but they don't benefit from affinity staves, and bar regurgitation and few others many have long recasts/prohibitive casting distances.

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While this is true in some aspects it is also false in others. While blu does not have affinity staves via ToM, they still have HQ staves to fall back on as well as various other spells to enhance damage via buffs. The point this was to show that the option to use Nukes is there for blu just like rdm, to show Scuro that jobs have the ability to be flexible which he tends to overlook.

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Rdm never had a lot of spells to cast on others to begin with... I don't see how sub jobs getting haste changes this.

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This was said mainly to point out the false assumption that Rdm is a pt enhancer class. It never was a pt enhancer class and using the crutches of Haste/refresh to say it is one has been one of Scuro's tactics/arguments. Thus showing how multiple classes using either sub at 99 having access to a 'cycle-spell' would fit this assumed role just as easily.

I'm attempting to squash his biased logic with situational proxy logic to show that each position he states a rdm should fill, is not necessarily the position it is meant to fill because the job was not built to fit any of these roles without appropriate subs to accommodate the role. Even then, the subjob only slightly enhances this role because the jobs made to fill it in a primary sense will always do it better...because they were built to do so. Rdm was built into a Jack-of-trades job; flexible to fill various back up roles, but master to no role specifically. The way rdm was built is a combination of Whm, Blm, and Melee, so why shouldn't it be able to fit a back-up DD role if the situation allows for it?

Gear dictates what jobs do?! Oh that explains this.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/231396

Makes perfect sense now. I see just how things work, thanks for enlightening me Scuro.

Needs more Rune Chopper Scholars.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Once again you seemed to have only looked at the over all enmity downfall of what was said. The goal was to show that because the job can fit a back-up role of healer, it doesn't mean that is the primary function of the job and should not be a point to satisfy a "primary role/position" of a job. I placed the application of blu being able to fill this role to show to someone who has never played rdm (scuro) that the same pitfalls a blu run into with this, a rdm runs into. Neither is made to be Cure-bombers, but both can fill a backup healer role if the situation calls for it. Situational role positioning of the job, not primary focal point of the job.



While this is true in some aspects it is also false in others. While blu does not have affinity staves via ToM, they still have HQ staves to fall back on as well as various other spells to enhance damage via buffs. The point this was to show that the option to use Nukes is there for blu just like rdm, to show Scuro that jobs have the ability to be flexible which he tends to overlook.



This was said mainly to point out the false assumption that Rdm is a pt enhancer class. It never was a pt enhancer class and using the crutches of Haste/refresh to say it is one has been one of Scuro's tactics/arguments. Thus showing how multiple classes using either sub at 99 having access to a 'cycle-spell' would fit this assumed role just as easily.

I'm attempting to squash his biased logic with situational proxy logic to show that each position he states a rdm should fill, is not necessarily the position it is meant to fill because the job was not built to fit any of these roles without appropriate subs to accommodate the role. Even then, the subjob only slightly enhances this role because the jobs made to fill it in a primary sense will always do it better...because they were built to do so. Rdm was built into a Jack-of-trades job; flexible to fill various back up roles, but master to no role specifically. The way rdm was built is a combination of Whm, Blm, and Melee, so why shouldn't it be able to fit a back-up DD role if the situation allows for it?

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Just arguing details at this point then, I have no real issue with this outlook. My major gripe at this point is SE hasn't delivering on promised adjustments and the only notable thing given ignoring gear upgrades was... Temper, which I doubt anyone would have a problem if it it wasn't the only notable thing this update short of spells we knew we would be getting due to tier progression, or should have gotten several levels ago.

I don't think we should ignore gear upgrades though, as RDM is such a gear dependent job that when it does give something that raises the bar on what we got, it literally is an update-level improvement.

Not to mention, Spontaneity should be given a honoerable mention even if the timer is a long one. The ability to bistow an instance of Quick Cast on anyone could potentially be pretty powerful. Especially if it were used to say, help a struggling tank get up shadows instantly, and still have the recast to do it again right after. Or giving that BLM the ability to cast Comet two times in quick succession. Or, say sometime in the middle of a wipe the WHM who's next on the hate list said "Oh crap, reraise fell."

I hate the timer on it, we're likely going to see a merit category for it too, which is annoying. But Temper isn't the grand sum of what RDM got this update. Gain STR, gear, and Spontaneity were received too.

As far as the Manifesto... More and more I'm thinking that was a mistranslation as far as the buffing aspects of the job.

Though please, more debuffs next patch, something that ONLY RDM can have.

"Could potentially" and "is in practice" aren't the same thing however. Even without 10 minute timer restriction (pretty terrible imo) giving it to others can easily be wasted unless you can predict exactly what the person is going to cast with it, at the moment you give it to them. Sure, I have a good idea of what they should do with it, but I can never confidently say that is what they are going to do after getting it, especially if they already have something else in mind.

I take it you don't maintain communication with your allies then?

That explains a lot, actually.

I'm on Skype with my allies most the time, so it's simple to say things like. "Convert Coming up." or "Skillchain up." In short order and pull things off easily. It'd be nothing to say. "Spare me a Quick Cast for a double-comet?" And have it done. Or to plan other uses for it.

It's also how I coordinate healing loads with my Dancer, where we determine what damage requires her to only use a Waltz III to pair off with my Cure IV, or when She can Spare the time on a Waltz V. Or how gradual damage can be easily countered off with AoE Stoneskin/Regen, where heavier ones can add on Drain Samba.

Having access to quick communication really does bypass most of those concerns.