[dev1017]* Dancer Support/Healing Redux Idea (also /Dnc suggestions)

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Now, guess what.

You have to deal with the following:

Silence (since every skill under the magic categories can be silenced)
Magic Aggro
Resists
Skillup on "casting."

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Since Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP is it competely unimaginable that silence wont affect it?
I think not.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, you have spell interruptions (again, everything under the magic category can be interrupted).

And you would have to put EVERYTHING away from Job Abilities and make their own "brand" of "magic" in this case.

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Again Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP, is it competely unimaginable that you would only need to add Resists to Steps (which are virtually acc based since there is no additional effect)?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Your example of Blue Magic is a horrible one. You know why? Blue Magic skill is required for 1 of two things: Learning Blue Magic and Magic Accuracy for either Physical Additional Effects (for example, Head Butt's Stun effect) or resist rates for Magical Attacks (for example, Magical Accuracy for 1000 needles).

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It might be a bad example, its a pretty mutch reasonable explaination.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

How can you interrupt dance moves if they are instantaneous? You can run and use a dance move at the same time, how can that be the same as magic? Since when can you cast a spell and move at the same time?

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You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, having a Dance Skill category would do what? Affect enhancement potency for the DNC? What about those who don't have DNC or /DNC in your party? How would the potency affect them, since they are the ones who don't get the buff? Would you be rocking on a full buffed potency while everyone else gets a supergimped version of the same buff? That is not how dances work.

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Its a Party buff therefore everyone get the version that was Cast. That was obvious to beginn with no?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, you would now add another variable to steps. Instead of just accuracy to the steps, you now have magic accuracy added on too. Violent Flourish's stun accuracy is solely dependent on the mob in question; you can stun anything that doesn't have a strong resist, as long as you don't whiff that flourish.

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Simply Wrong. Why would applying Stutter Steps (Lowes a Target resistance)
have any effect on Violet Flourish if you were correct? As long as Steps do not inflice any Dmg and for that reason the debuff is the only effect applyed by it. Its Ok to have only one modifier.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Now, lets get into the concept of getting skillups. How do you propose Dancers in getting skillups? By dancing? By steps? By Finishing moves? Are we looking at another 3 skill breakup as in the same way as Bard?

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Like Every Jobs by useing its natural Abiltys So by doing your Job.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, you would have to introduce a lot more gear into the lineup for DNC skill....

My question to you really was: Is Dancer Skill really plausible?

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I have no answer for that. but to make stuff really
useful in a Pary situaltion you would need a ton new 'Augments xxx effect Gear'

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Edit: Forgot to add this, but here is another thing.

If you make Dancer Skill into a magical category, you would have magical haste capped a lot earlier and lose ability haste cap that you could have otherwise hit. In other words, Dancer would now become pointless in capping haste (well, it already is, but still). You would have less of a reason to get DNC in a party to cap haste, since you can't have that nice 10% Haste Samba as a Ability haste and instead magical haste.

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Essentially thats a very good Argument. I can only say yes that would be BAD but,
since you do not use MP but TP and the Job virtually stays the way it is haveing,
just a skill to modify you Abilitys to a degree. If a Job can cure with TP at all it can be magical and still not be affected by all that Stuff. And Still have JA haste

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Originally Posted by Sayelle

If you're in a party with people who are even remotely competent why would you have someone there /dnc when they could sub something infinitely more useful like /war or /sam. The only way it would happen is if you play with a bunch of gimps and retards and if that's the case then you have much bigger problems than /dnc samba overwriting the Main dnc.

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And welcome to random Abyssea exp Groups. (Good reason to avoid them).

Also i would like to thank Korpg to think everything through as thu hes no conviced by the Idea^^

Anyway would like everyone be ok if i closed this Thread?
I think everyone has his/her position by now.
Or would anyone want to add something?

The fact is, if you make Dancing skill a magic skill, it WILL be affected by silence. Singing, Ninjitsu, Wind, String, Blue, Dark, Elemental, Enfeebling, Divine, Healing, Summoning can all be silenced.

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Originally Posted by Eri

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

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You can use a job ability while moving, even if it does root you momentarily. You can't use a spell while moving.

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Originally Posted by Eri

Since Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP is it competely unimaginable that silence wont affect it?
I think not.

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If you are going to make it into a magic ability, it has to have all the weaknesses and strengths of being a magic ability. Including, but not limited to, silence.

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Again Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP, is it competely unimaginable that you would only need to add Resists to Steps (which are virtually acc based since there is no additional effect)?

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Again, you can't have a slice of cake without making the whole cake first. Making anything that a DNC does into magic qualities means you have to include everything that separates it from physical qualities. Which is resists, spell casting, spell interruptions, and silence.

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You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

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Try moving at all while casting a spell, including near-instantaneous spells (dia, flash, and stun) and you will STILL get interrupted. Even BRD songs get interrupted, and they can have 20 mobs beating on them and not get interrupted at all.

Yes, you "stop" but you can START the ability WHILE moving. That reason alone is why this wouldn't be anywhere near magical qualities.

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Its a Party buff therefore everyone get the version that was Cast. That was obvious to beginn with no?

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Here, lets play this little game.

Find two WHM friend, and have them both cast a Bar spell on you, one of them naked, the other one with a lot of enhancing magic equipment on.

You will notice that the WHM with the enhancing magic + equipment will have the better of the two WHM Bar spells.

Also, notice that you also have the symbol of whatever Bar spell they put on there. Does the other melee have your samba symbol on when they are attacking with you and you have a samba on? No. So how does the system determine what strength of samba to put on? Sure, it could see that XX player used XX Samba, but then ask yourself this: What would happen if 2 players have the same Samba, but both at different strengths? It would be confused if you include DNC skill in the equation, because there are too many variables in determining the strength of anything. Only way it wouldn't is if Sambas become AoE type spells, like Bar spells, and that is not how DNC works, is it? Adding skills would completely change DNC.

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Simply Wrong. Why would applying Stutter Steps (Lowes a Target resistance)
have any effect on Violet Flourish if you were correct? As long as Steps do not inflice any Dmg and for that reason the debuff is the only effect applyed by it. Its Ok to have only one modifier.

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Violet Flourish does damage. Do you even play DNC? Heck, my DNC is at 49 and I know that.
Yes, Magic Accuracy does play a role in chance of stun effect, but most everything does not resist stun, so you can stun a lot of things. NMs build resistance to stun as the fight goes on, but thats for everything. Adding a new variable (DNC skill) would make Violent Flourish that much less effective. You are basically asking SE to gimp DNC.

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Like Every Jobs by useing its natural Abiltys So by doing your Job.

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Let me ask you this then: Have you ever tried to skill up Summoning Magic by only the summon method? (Not including BP:R/W) It was a pain before they included the ability to gain skillups by BPs, and what you are asking is for everyone to start out from being at capped skill to being a 0 skill, at up to 3 different skill sets. At level 90. Assuming that so-called DNC skill will have an A+ rating, that is up to over 1,100 skill levels to gain until level 90 cap. Not including level 99 in the equation yet. That would take months to do, including the fact that some skills, like Waltzes, will take the longest to do.

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I have no answer for that. but to make stuff really
useful in a Pary situaltion you would need a ton new 'Augments xxx effect Gear'

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That is still a lot of gear to change. Think SE would want to include this system based on changing the whole structure of augments alone?

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Essentially thats a very good Argument. I can only say yes that would be BAD but,
since you do not use MP but TP and the Job virtually stays the way it is haveing,
just a skill to modify you Abilitys to a degree. If a Job can cure with TP at all it can be magical and still not be affected by all that Stuff. And Still have JA haste

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So basically, you want this to be a magical skill but operate under job ability rules? Think that SE, who is a stickler for making specific rules, is going to want this? Or players, who have played this game for almost 10 years, want to accept this adaptation of the rules to include something that would make a lot of people lives very miserable?

In end, I have given you many reasons why this would be a bad idea.

I hope this answers your query and know that most everyone, if not everyone but you, will say no to this new system.

Let call it cast time, you can't move while casting because you have to concentrate, while speaking a Formua right?

While dancing however its a Movement that Inflicts an effect.
That is in many cases of a Magical Nature thats a Fact.

Exapmples of that would be most of the Steps effects and also to a degree Sambas Effects.

Anyway im Offering to close the Thread if ppl are ok with it.

Sadly the only thing a 90 Dancer has that a Subjob Dancer doesn't is Waltz IV & V (both of which suck timer-wise), the Merited JAs (Fan/Saber Dance) and any of the post 75 Dancer JAs and such (Presto/Climactic & Striking Flourish and Feather Step). Think one of THE biggest mistakes was giving /Dancer Waltz III, everyone nowadays is going /DNC for tanking. Also giving Waltzes & Violent Flourish pretty much the SAME potency as main DNC was another huge mistake. Take it from someone who leveled Dancer before the 75-cap was broken (lolDNC back then), a lot about the level cap increase basically gave ALL other jobs what made DNC shine by itself. Personally I'd like to see double Waltz recast time for /Dancer subjob, and an Accuracy nerf to Violent Flourish when Dancer is subbed. You dont see people going /Bard on jobs (aside from yellow processes when no Bard mains around). Personally I believe that Dancer needs to have its own identity again, instead of being 'everyones subjob of choice'.

/DNC is only usefull solo and very low man grouping.

And Dancer was not loldnc at 75, anyone who thought so was just a moron and didnt know what DNC could do.

Well i might not made 1 thing clear enought in the OP i want some changes to certain things
they can or can not be Skill, the Skill idea was mine sure but it was an idea to adress certain Issues.


As for ppl that go like: No dont like the idea. Thats fine.
Im looking for a useful solution to seperate Main from support Job, so cool if you think my Skill idea through!
Though you are not Limited to Discuss my Idea, you are rather in the position to fine Solutions to serperate main and sub
I apologise for not makeing that more clear in the OP.

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Originally Posted by Eri

Let call it cast time, you can't move while casting because you have to concentrate, while speaking a Formua right?

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It can't have a cast time if it is instantaneous. In case you don't know what that means, it means that you do it instantly, no casting, you hit the button and it comes on, like a light bulb.

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While dancing however its a Movement that Inflicts an effect.
That is in many cases of a Magical Nature thats a Fact.

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Magical in what way? I mean, you are converting your TP into an en-effect or cure or debuff. But for the en-effect to work, you have to hit the mob. In order for the debuff to work, you have to hit the mob. Curing doesn't require you to hit the mob, but to maintain cures, you have to gain TP, which means you have to hit the mob.

Spellcasting does not require you to have to hit anything. You can do it as long as you have the tools or MP to do so, or instruments to make it happen.

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Exapmples of that would be most of the Steps effects and also to a degree Sambas Effects.

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Your examples require you to hit the mob for it to take effect. Even though almost all does not do any damage (with the exception of Violent Flourish) you still have to hit the mob for the added effect to take place. When you wiff your round of hits, your samba effect on the mob wears off until you hit it again. If you don't land a step, it won't take effect. Both require accuracy for you to be effective. What spell do you know requires you to hit something to take effect?

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Anyway im Offering to close the Thread if ppl are ok with it.

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Go ahead and close it, you lost anyway, and closing this thread is a sign of defeat.

Knock yourself out if you want to close this. Just don't bring it up again.

But thanks for the laughs.

This thread is still going?

OK, here is the fact that seems to be escaping the OPs notice: DNC and SCH were designed to work effectively as subjobs from the start for melee and mage jobs respectively. They are WORKING AS INTENDED!

You even mentioned in one of your inane posts that light/dark arts give the main job a B rating in the respective magic skills. This was done ON PURPOSE to make SCH a better support job for mages who did not have the skills natively. SMNs and BRDs can sub SCH and not have gimped healing skill. They can also cast bar-spells and not have them be a total waste of MP and casting time due to natively crappy enhancing skill.

SO what is the difference between a main-job sch and a /sch? nothing more than the differences between a main-job DNC and a /dnc. SE just found 2 different ways to make them work that way: SCH with arts to boost the magic skills and DNC with JAs not based on skill at all; and not overly-gimped by formulas that are different for main or subbed DNC.

The thing that separates the main and subbed versions of these jobs is the tier of the spell/JA that is available to the player, as almost everyone who has replied to this post has told you. The higher tier splls/JAs of these jobs are not available when subbed, and the subbed spells/JAs are not overly-gimped. There is you balance.