Is anyone particularly happy with the new gear from New Salvage?

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Originally Posted by saevel

Umm why on earth are you using a multi-hitter off hand. If your going to Winja and use a magian weapon then it should be a STR club, or failling that a PDT club (less healing = more swinging). The multi-hitters just feed more TP and deal no additional damage.

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If the swing deals at least 1 damage, the person using the offhand multi-hit weapon gets TP, which cannot possibly lower anyone's damage output. TP feed only matters on bosses that no single handed weapon user would bother trying to melee in the first place, why bother using that as the basis for an argument against it?

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TP feed only matters on bosses that no single handed weapon user would bother trying to melee in the first place

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Eh, lots of situations where NIN/THF/BLU/DNC can contribute where TP Feed is still a concern. It's why THF is one of the more annoying jobs to take along low-man for meleeing (It has no subtle blow and thus the least bang for your buck). WHM melee, on the other hand, pretty much only happens on monsters where TP feed doesn't matter.

Kraken Club is still the best offhand for melee WHMs though. OA2-4 though, IIRC, doesn't beat STR.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

If the swing deals at least 1 damage, the person using the offhand multi-hit weapon gets TP, which cannot possibly lower anyone's damage output. TP feed only matters on bosses that no single handed weapon user would bother trying to melee in the first place, why bother using that as the basis for an argument against it?

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Umm NO. That's not how DW works. Dual wielding a 99 Mjoll with a warp club will reduce the damage of the Mjol due to the additional delay imposed by the sh!tty warp club. The OaX weapons suck because of their additional delay, it lowers their overall DPS to lower then a STR or equitable weapon. This applies to K.club as well, it's 8 DMG is so low that it's melee DPS is absolute crap, it's only function is to generate a ton of TP to spam WS's. Each hit of your weapon generates your TP + 3 (before store TP), this means that anything hitting multiple times per attack round is feeding tons of TP to the monster. Normally this isn't an issue as your dealing enough damage to justify that TP, except in the case of low damage multi-hit weapons. Your now dealing less damage overall then you would be by using a better off hand weapon and also feeding the target excessive TP.

If someone absolutely must use one of the non-STR magian clubs then use the DA+11% one, the DA will apply to your main weapon and WS's. Honestly though 340 delay is absolutely stupid, the 210 Delay of the elemental line is much better for your overall damage and survivability.

As for the Nabu vs Shedir, Nabu easy.
10 Attack
10 Accuracy
4% Haste

vs
10 STR (2.5 fSTR)
5 Attack
3% DA
4% Haste

Accuracy shouldn't ever be an issue on anything you'd be going Winja on, especially with auspice / misery.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Kraken Club is still the best offhand for melee WHMs though. OA2-4 though, IIRC, doesn't beat STR.

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This was close to what was going to be my answer. Basically, it boils down to "it parses better" which could take a while to beat considering the Kraken Club.

Someone could argue until they're blue in the face, but the parse doesn't lie.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Accuracy shouldn't ever be an issue on anything you'd be going Winja on, especially with auspice / misery.

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Auspice got nerfed pretty hard, and the numbers we have for it are pretty lacking, so baring some solid testing, I don't even know if I should bother counting this as a legitimate point. I wouldn't exactly rely on the information we have on the spell now to make a judgement either, especially since we didn't even have good numbers back in 2009 pre-nerf, and that's where most of the information is coming from.

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Auspice got nerfed pretty hard, and the numbers we have for it are pretty lacking, so baring some solid testing, I don't even know if I should bother counting this as a legitimate point. I wouldn't exactly rely on the information we have on the spell now to make a judgement either, especially since we didn't even have good numbers back in 2009 pre-nerf, and that's where most of the information is coming from.

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Auspice / Misery is the icing, the cake itself is the fact that nothing you'd be meleeing on WHM should ever have a high level or evasion. This is the exact same reason I tend to disregard accuracy on melee RDM builds, current game dynamics simply do not support mage class's meleeing on anything worth a damn. That may or may not change in the future.

In any case, multi-hitters suck right now. There is nothing special about WHM / Club that makes it any different then Sword, Dagger, Katana or Axe. The only one that is remotely useful is the 2-4 dagger for DNC, and even they shun it for evasion / str daggers. If the job who's entire focus is rapid TP accumulation to use on abilities has little use for a multi-hit weapon, then WHM most definitely has zero use for it. This includes the Kraken Club, it's raw DPS was always absolute sh!t. It's only saving grace was on two jobs, one being SEBW zergling DRK, the other being RNG. RNG is currently the only job that finds it remotely useful.

Just to make sure I'm following you properly, you say that multi-hit weapons feed too much TP. Yet, you also say the mob's level/evasion shouldn't ever be too high, which would imply weak TP moves in the first place, which kind of moots your original point about TP feed. If the mob's level is low, why does TP feed or the rate at which I bore the mob to death with my hammers have any bearing on the discussion?

Why is a salvage gear discussion turning into an offhand melee WHM discussion? I think I'm missing something here.

I have a suspicion that alcohol was involved.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Auspice / Misery is the icing,

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Moving them goalposts. Give me solid numbers for why the accuracy bonus on Auspice makes a difference or don't mention it. I might even go so far as to say that Auspice's effects would even be a liability with some builds.

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Originally Posted by saevel

There is nothing special about WHM / Club

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Kraken Club, B+ Club skill, lack of extensive access to double/triple/quad attack, non-native dual wield.

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Originally Posted by saevel

that makes it any different then Sword,

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Native Dual Wield, good access to double/triple attack (BLU), good access to double/triple attack (RDM), shield user (PLD).

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Originally Posted by saevel

Dagger,

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Native Dual Wield, good access to double/triple/quad attack (THF, DNC), good access to double/triple attack (RDM), good (might be iffy) access to double/triple/quad attack (BRD).

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Originally Posted by saevel

Katana

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Native Dual Wield, good access to double/triple attack (NIN).

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Originally Posted by saevel

or Axe.

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Good access to double/triple attack (BST,WAR).

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Originally Posted by saevel

If the job who's entire focus is rapid TP accumulation to use on abilities has little use for a multi-hit weapon, then WHM most definitely has zero use for it. This includes the Kraken Club, it's raw DPS was always absolute sh!t.

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If a job's damage is heavily reliant on weapon skills, they'll want either faster TP or better weapon skills, not a focus on white damage, so whatever parses better will be better.

Can't change the parses. I'm sure many White Mages would like a better offhand so they could sell the Kraken Club or stop trying to get one, but until something changes, it's still shown to be king by the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Why is a salvage gear discussion turning into an offhand melee WHM discussion? I think I'm missing something here.

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Its all because of a single body which may or may not be potentially useful for WHM melees because its stats beat Shedir in non-acc cases if you are using a non-multihit weapon. Technically relevant because its outcome depends on the real use of the body, the body can only really be good for a WHM who melees, and if said body can not be used with a WHM's best off hand then its not really good anyways, and thus is worse than the easier to obtain Shedir.

Long story short, its on topic because it is determining the overall value of a piece of the Neo-Salvage gear.