Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

Your thin skin doesn't make the other posters in this thread any less correct, it just makes you look like a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Well, yes I am actually. I have no problem whatsoever with the Math. I'm not going to sit here and actually argue Math or game mechanics. I know there are people like you and Frost who are way smarter than me with that stuff.

But, as I will always maintain - gear choice is mainly done over the opinion each person has about what gear is best for them based on how they play, what they're goals are, whether they care about outperforming other players or not, and etc. Even their race makes a different. An Elvaan BLM will need to stack more INT than other races because their natural base INT is lower than other races. That's just an example. Thought I do appreciate Frost's original post and subsequent replies, especially to me... being from a teaching standpoint and not just telling me I'm a "bad player" for not gear swapping and having a heavy haste/tp setup, I may not change the way I play. Simply because I've never really cared about other players outperforming me. At the end of the day, the mobs still die, battles and missions are still won, and even if I'm just an "average" player, I'm ok with that. Maybe getting offended easily over being called a "bad player" was my downfall last night. However, i'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who would take offense to being called a bad player as being a fact based solely on gear choices.

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meny forum people are very picky and try to stress macros, if you look at the SCH board how I posted my SCH macros you know how crazy some of us can be to be perfectionist.

sometimes it can make or brake you, in lowamn situations the results of macroing like that become more apperent.

to me having a TP and WS macros these days are somewhat basic and requred, but thats just how i view things ( again take a look what i posted on my SCH macros, so you get the idea how much work i put into performace). ( people can have setups for different WS like how war use to have a ws set for raging rush because its crt and there was other times kings justace was better so they set up some different ws gear for that, that is something I do not expect, but nice to have, shows more pride in the job.) Then you have people that go even further that have PDT, MDT and other more situational gear.

telling people how to play never goes well, you feel people are telling you that your gimp for not using macros and people feel your trying to be a troll for going about the math statments and such

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Originally Posted by Rambus

meny forum people are very picky and try to stress macros, if you look at the SCH board how I posted my SCH macros you know how crazy some of us can be to be perfectionist.

sometimes it can make or brake you, in lowamn situations the results of macroing like that become more apperent.

to me having a TP and WS macros these days are somewhat basic and requred, but thats just how i view things ( again take a look what i posted on my SCH macros, so you get the idea how much work i put into performace). ( people can have setups for different WS like how war use to have a ws set for raging rush because its crt and there was other times kings justace was better so they set up some different ws gear for that, that is something I do not expect, but nice to have, shows more pride in the job.) Then you have people that go even further that have PDT, MDT and other more situational gear.

telling people how to play never goes well, you feel people are telling you that your gimp for not using macros and people feel your trying to be a troll for going about the math statments and such

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It was never about the Math for me except for I thought it was funny there was so much discussion going on about it. I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble. Those people make me laugh. Maybe what they do is good for a party setup when they're not having to tank mobs solo. But I see somebody like that, who doesn't realize you may not be able to do the same thing solo that you can in a party and I can't say they're a better player than me just because they swap gear for WS's and go with a haste/tp build when they're not WSing. It's never been about the Math for me. Likewise, it was easy for me to get irritated at people calling me a bad player just because I don't play that way. I don't see it as a basic thing to do. I see it as a player game choice. I don't really care if you outperform me as a player. That doesn't make me any less smart. Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

So what would make a bad player in your estimation then? Or are there no bad players in the game?

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

It was never about the Math for me except for I thought it was funny there was so much discussion going on about it. I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble. Those people make me laugh. Maybe what they do is good for a party setup when they're not having to tank mobs solo. But I see somebody like that, who doesn't realize you may not be able to do the same thing solo that you can in a party and I can't say they're a better player than me just because they swap gear for WS's and go with a haste/tp build when they're not WSing. It's never been about the Math for me. Likewise, it was easy for me to get irritated at people calling me a bad player just because I don't play that way. I don't see it as a basic thing to do. I see it as a player game choice. I don't really care if you outperform me as a player. That doesn't make me any less smart. Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

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Eyeballed it.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

It was never about the Math for me except for I thought it was funny there was so much discussion going on about it. I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble. Those people make me laugh. Maybe what they do is good for a party setup when they're not having to tank mobs solo. But I see somebody like that, who doesn't realize you may not be able to do the same thing solo that you can in a party and I can't say they're a better player than me just because they swap gear for WS's and go with a haste/tp build when they're not WSing. It's never been about the Math for me. Likewise, it was easy for me to get irritated at people calling me a bad player just because I don't play that way. I don't see it as a basic thing to do. I see it as a player game choice. I don't really care if you outperform me as a player. That doesn't make me any less smart. Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

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why would someone want to wair full haste soloing as a thf/dnc? i would think you would want evade gear at some point.

there is a time and place for everything and thats anther aspect of good and bad, knowing what to use and when

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

So what would make a bad player in your estimation then? Or are there no bad players in the game?

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Of course I see people in the game that I would personally label as a bad player, but it's still just my opinion. Most of those people get on the game once every couple of months and play for just a few hours. So at that point, it's not really a matter of they suck... they just don't play enough to learn how to be better at what they do.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Of course I see people in the game that I would personally label as a bad player, but it's still just my opinion. Most of those people get on the game once every couple of months and play for just a few hours. So at that point, it's not really a matter of they suck... they just don't play enough to learn how to be better at what they do.

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So the issue is that they are not improving their performance?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

why would someone want to wair full haste soloing as a thf/dnc? i would think you would want evade gear at some point.

there is a time and place for everything and thats anther aspect of good and bad, knowing what to use and when

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EXACTLY. I do know what to use and when. I told some long time players... GOOD players... who are some of my whms & rdms who didn't know about <stpt> and <stal>. Two of them said they would try it. I'll most likely work in more haste/tp gear in party situations now. My triple attack merits are capped and I wear a brutal earring for double attack... so I do build my tp fast in other ways too.

yeah this is getting off couse, can you admit in some wrong now after i explained it? this si why people think you are trolling and SE said in fourm ToS its bad to go too much off topic

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

So the issue is that they are not improving their performance?

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No. It's not about performance. It's about situational strategy. And as I said, they don't play enough to know any better if they only get on a few hours every couple of months.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

yeah this is getting off couse, can you admit in some wrong now after i explained it? this si why people think you are trolling and SE said in fourm ToS its bad to go too much off topic

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Wrong about what? About haste? I've never argued against the Math to begin with. So, I don't know what I'm wrong about, other than a bunch of people telling me I'm a stupid bad player for not swapping gear for WS's.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

No. It's not about performance. It's about situational strategy. And as I said, they don't play enough to know any better if they only get on a few hours every couple of months.

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Gearing is part of strategy. Having the right tools for the job and all that, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

yeah this is getting off couse, can you admit in some wrong now after i explained it? this si why people think you are trolling and SE said in fourm ToS its bad to go too much off topic

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They also said this too

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Please do not post false, fabricated and/or fictitious information. It is unconstructive and will only confuse others. Please be careful with what you post and keep in mind that your words can affect others more than you may expect.

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Lord only knows how much of nature's posts fall into that.

Good write up =)
Haters gonna hate, so ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble.

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You can have the best gear and a billion macros and still suck as a player. You can also have a bad day and get unlucky with a tp move or something similar. A well-geared thf who knows wtf they are doing and that has gear swap macros will have a HIGHER survivability rate than you.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

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When it's being lazy to the extent of NOT gear swapping - yes it does make you a bad player.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Wrong about what? About haste? I've never argued against the Math to begin with. So, I don't know what I'm wrong about, other than a bunch of people telling me I'm a stupid bad player for not swapping gear for WS's.

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its not optimal, can we move on now and let people talk about thier haste math XD

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Originally Posted by Rambus

its not optimal, can we move on now and let people talk about thier haste math XD

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Uh. yeah... sure!

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Haste_(Status_Effect)

A read for players returning to the game and/Or wish to eye-ball the pieces/compare haste on a quick glance.

any tips on coaxing an unruly mage into pleasuring me with his haste spell?

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Originally Posted by Fondle

any tips on coaxing an unruly mage into pleasuring me with his haste spell?

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Kick him and get a better one?

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Originally Posted by Fondle

any tips on coaxing an unruly mage into pleasuring me with his haste spell?

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Serious reply just in case: Ask them politely for it if they haven't cast it on you, as that should be one of their most fundamental responsibilities in a party. If they start giving you crap for it, you can choose either to talk to them or to give up and just assume that you are dealing with someone who can't be helped. If they can't handle hasting, they are probably lacking in other areas of magery as well and you'd be better off just avoiding them in the future.

But because you're a horrid troll: Get out.

Edit: Also, what he said ^

Also I enjoy using the SEA DAUGHTER aTMA due to the fact my only reliable means to obtain tactical points is the regeneration it offers, would wearing a maximum haste build on my ridill/joyeuse warrior be enough to counteract this "Mountainous Slow" it imposes upon me?

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Originally Posted by Fondle

Also I enjoy using the SEA DAUGHTER aTMA due to the fact my only reliable means to obtain tactical points is the regeneration it offers, would wearing a maximum haste build on my ridill/joyeuse warrior be enough to counteract this "Mountainous Slow" it imposes upon me?

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No. Since you're already adding so much slow, I'm sure Slow+ caps at 25% too, so you're just better off fulltiming hecatomb gear so you can hit harder.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

2) 80% haste isnt a 400% increase in attack rounds, at 240 dly you have 15 /min, with 80% haste you have 75. Thats a 500% increase. You had the right calculation when you translated it to hits.

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Incorrect. It's a 400% increase.

Let's look at 100 delay.

80% haste

100 x .2 = 20 delay.


Ok, Now, 10 attack rounds before haste.

100 delay x 10 attack rounds = 1000 delay.

How many attacks does 20 delay get in 1000 units of delay?

1000/20 = 50 attack rounds.

50/10 = 500%. 500% isn't the increase. It's 500% of 10.

10 is 100% of 10. The increase from 100% to 500% is 400%

50 is 500% of 10, but it's not a 500% increase to 10. It's a 400% increase of 10.


I don't like how I worded that, so I'll try again.

Let's say 50 = 500%. Let's cut that into 5 equal slices.

10 10 10 10 10. Each slice is 100%

100 delay has one slice of 10.
20 delay has 5 slices of 10

4 slices is the increase. 4 slices is 400%.


Edit:
To make it really simple.

Let's look at 10 and 5.

5 x 2 = 10. 10 is a 100% increase of 5. (because you double 5 to get 10).

10/5 = 200%. It's 200% of 5, but the increase is 100% because 5 is still 100% of 5, which is our base point.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Incorrect. It's a 400% increase.

Let's look at 100 delay.

80% haste

100 x .2 = 20 delay.


Ok, Now, 10 attack rounds before haste.

100 delay x 10 attack rounds = 1000 delay.

How many attacks does 20 delay get in 1000 units of delay?

1000/20 = 50 attack rounds.

50/10 = 500%. 500% isn't the increase. It's 500% of 10.

10 is 100% of 10. The increase from 100% to 500% is 400%

50 is 500% of 10, but it's not a 500% increase to 10. It's a 400% increase of 10.


I don't like how I worded that, so I'll try again.

Let's say 50 = 500%. Let's cut that into 5 equal slices.

10 10 10 10 10. Each slice is 100%

100 delay has one slice of 10.
20 delay has 5 slices of 10

4 slices is the increase. 4 slices is 400%.


Edit:
To make it really simple.

Let's look at 10 and 5.

5 x 2 = 10. 10 is a 100% increase of 5. (because you double 5 to get 10).

10/5 = 200%. It's 200% of 5, but the increase is 100% because 5 is still 100% of 5, which is our base point.

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Guess i was right about pointing out what 400% increase ment

its 40/10 for the increase

you leave out that 10 because your stating the increase, so you cannot include the original vaule

I find this as a troll post:

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Originally Posted by Fondle

Also I enjoy using the SEA DAUGHTER aTMA due to the fact my only reliable means to obtain tactical points is the regeneration it offers, would wearing a maximum haste build on my ridill/joyeuse warrior be enough to counteract this "Mountainous Slow" it imposes upon me?

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lol, I found an even easier way to explain it now that I did the math w/ smaller numbers.

Compare 6 to 5, a 20% increase.

6/5 = 1.2. x100 = 120%.

The .2 is the actual increase, that one in front of it is a place holder.

Do people actually still think haste is pointless after 31 pages?

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Originally Posted by Nepharite

Do people actually still think haste is pointless after 31 pages?

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It's not that people think it's useless, it's that the players arguing against it are just lazy to properly gear their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Nepharite

Do people actually still think haste is pointless after 31 pages?

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10 posts per page would make me cry.

Almost as much as i am already because yes, people still think it's useless.

For about four years I had no idea haste on gear made you attack faster, so I never used any of it. I thought it was just for when a mage cast haste ON you that it worked. I was completely naive, but at least I wasn't debating the fact afterwards. I'm now a NIN with a good amount of haste and -delay gear. I do have a piece I gimp myself on purpose with instead of a suppa out of sentimentality. I'm sure I'll trade it in some day. If FFXI had more lines in the macros, I'd probably swap even more gear, but I do swap gear constantly. I also have a macro for every weapon skill for different gear swapping based on its mods (Evisceration, Hi, Yu, or something else).

If I had more time to play, I'd probably have capped my haste gear, but real life wins.

See, you I have no problem with. Natures on the other hand continues to argue that she is right and everybody else is wrong. Her stupidity level has risen far beyond my expectations in the last few pages.

A good thing to do in these kinds of situations, is TO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

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Originally Posted by JiltedValkyrie

For about four years I had no idea haste on gear made you attack faster

If I had more time to play, I'd probably have capped my haste gear, but real life wins.

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wait, wat?

Being good at the game makes you a no-lifer with no social skills (especially with the opposite sex) and means you care too much about FFXI, live in a basement and have FFXI as your sole hobby.

Being bad at the game means you have this amazing social life where you have sex approximately 15 times a day and all faults can be forgiven because unlike those ELITISTS you have a real life.

Finally, it is impossible to be good at the game and still enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Being good at the game makes you a no-lifer with no social skills (especially with the opposite sex) and means you care too much about FFXI, live in a basement and have FFXI as your sole hobby.

Being bad at the game means you have this amazing social life where you have sex approximately 15 times a day and all faults can be forgiven because unlike those ELITISTS you have a real life.

Finally, it is impossible to be good at the game and still enjoy it.

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-10/10 failed.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Apparently, you totally missed what I said. I said it's his opinion that haste is the most important gear choice that people can make in this game. It's apparent that he feels that way because he directly said that I was, among other people, the reason he made his original post in the first place. It was obvious to him that haste was not that important to me. So, maybe take a break from thinking for a while, or think another minute about what you just read before you reply to it.

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I saw this....and then I wondered how this person got 3 lvl 90 jobs without understanding the importance of swapping between gears for specific reasons. Finally, I remembered that Abyssea, and prior to it AF burns, is how people primarily level up these days and the pieces all fell into place.

Honestly, if you can't see the purpose behind it or the math proving the purpose, then you really shouldn't throw yourself under the train. I mean you are more than welcome to argue your point until your fingers are numb, but any thf willing to macro between gear swaps will destroy the one that refuses to do so.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

But then I will die because the mob is crit hitting me or using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.

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You still lose actually. SE made this cool syntax that allows your mage to still select you even through gear swaps. You're point has just been proved invalid.

I have several 90s, both mage and melee (and in the case of Blu, a hybrid of both), and I can tell you I wouldn't stay in one gear set full time ever. I don't expect melee I cure as rdm, whm, or blu to either. I don't know...maybe you need to take your own advice.....

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

So, maybe take a break from thinking for a while, or think another minute about what you just read before you reply to it.

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Can't have your cake and eat it too

@raen's post :)

So, in a nut shell... How do I factor in haste when compared to other stats?

I don't even... i got told to check out this thread back on page 4 and assumed it'd die soon after since haste is a mute point... Anyone who has ever used parser knows haste is best for tp... How has this gone for 32 pages? There have always been people who believe what Nature thinks, we just block them out and add them to the many people currently occupying the dunce corner of ffxi. Why the sudden need to feed her? Also Nature, if you're a troll: Bravo, serious achievement stuff in the making here.

But nice guide OP :D