SE, Temper Activation Rate

Probably.

I'm imagining the paper-napkin design session where the developers sat down and it didn't go "hey let's buff RDM melee by giving it a line of stat boosting spells and two of those spells will boost melee stats". I imagine it more as "hey let's give RDM a cool line of new spells. Boosting base stats would be cool and useful for a bunch of different tasks and fits their theme of 'doing everything'. Oh and it'll make the melee crowd happy too, so everyone wins.".

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Abyssea is about as casual as it gets, was completely new endgame content, and in addition SE completely revamped Dynamis and removed the level cap from CoP and several nation missions. I think that's a pretty glaring approach to making endgame content more casual. I haven't done Voidwatch yet, so I really can't comment on it.

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Voidwatch will kick your ass. It's Endgame content with a capital 'E'.

Considering THF's Bully and SCH 2hr spells and 2hr were revamped TWICE so far it's safe to say that when Camate posts about RDM's new ability/spell feedback, Temper should be getting a substantial boost in potency as well as a large reduction in Spontaneity's recast. /pray

Gain-STR is a negligble melee boost at best, it's just happenstance that it helps melee but we were bound to get it anyway in line with the other Gain-Stat spells. Gain-STR is about +18 STR with good enhancing skill and will probably end up being around 20-25 at 99. That's nice and all but STR isn't very useful in melee damage calculations if your pDIF isn't capped. Considering RDM's sword skill is low and we lack any native +Attack boosting abilities, the +STR really doesn't increase the damage much of our pitiful little sword swings. If it was Gain-Attack and gave us +50-100 attack then we'd be talking melee boost. But +base stats hardly help DD since our accuracy and attack ratings are atrocious in addition to us having much of melee gear aside from Nashira/Expansion augmented gear and a few pre75 pieces. I wouldn't mind SE producing a new set for mages that enhances melee abilities, make it a synergy recipe. Pieces could have tons of +Haste/Acc/Att/ and maybe even an 'enhance sword enhancment spell+X"

Yes, VWNM can be tediously hard on some of the fights not to mention striking weak-points while doing it to build your chance at getting items/key items in an area that is relatively limited. I've yet to try the new ones, but heard they will require crowd control tactics to be used again unless you'd rather just wipe.

I don't take from Camate's post that the boost will be substantial, but that it will still have the ability to be boosted to accommodate the fact that everything else enhancing based generally gets stronger as the skill goes up for rdm and that like some of these spells there will be an upper cap to keep it from getting too strong. Knowing SE I expect 5% base increase to 10% generously, or as blu recently learned about their Double attack trait only being 7% instead of the perceived 10%, a more realistic low end cap of 7~8%. I say this mainly due to how strength of enhancing magic spells has scaled down as the cap continues to rise. Phalanx beyond 300 skill has a similar equation to 5/5 phalanx II (which I assume is only to keep it balanced with Phalanx II since if it didn't change Phalanx would be up around 40 mitigation by now while II would start lagging behind by 320 tier).

Edit: Dat mining on test server shows that they are adding new alternatives to dusk+1 hands/feet, neck options and a few other items that will go towards complimenting rdm melee, but it is yet to be seen how easy/hard these items are to get at this point. Nothing shown that is specific to rdm much like enhancing sword was or other +enspell dmg options they added also (which is rather limited if I recall correctly).

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

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A difference that needs to be blurred, in my opinion.

I have to wonder what your specific idea of 'endgame' is. Is it just tier based monsters you fight over and over again? As I Stated before in other forums, I find that sort of endgame rather boring and monotone. You can have many difficult bosses you can fight ,but it starts to degrade into the same old tank and spank with various "oh, but you have to hit this specific weakness." It lacks a lot about what I liked in Final Fantasy in general, where it was the players that were outnumbered, not the monster.

Not that I say they should abolish that direction, but to reinvest some time back into the Dynamis/Einherjar/Walk of Echoes/Salvage, bit where there were weaker monsters to handle first, or like Assaults/Campaign Ops where there was actual objectives that needed to be met. These situations could lend itself both to the casual player and more to the martial aspects (up until the bosses).

It's possible to make such an endgame accessible to the casual player yet still have the difficulty and rewards craved by the hardcore endgame base as well. It's really not all that hard, actually.

Here's one for you:

A lesser currency can be gained by doing 'fodder runs' in an arena setting that could use any particular zone. The currency can be used to buy mid-tier upgrades or temp items to assist performances in the run, as well as 'passes' to hop in the arena for boss fights which are done as separate runs. The higher the 'tier' mob, the higher currency cost.

Bosses drop trophies (key items that drop for everyone) that can be exchanged for high end gear. And the best of the gear require trophies form an entire series of mobs, rather than just one particular boss.

To spice things up, you can have some monsters in the fodder run be immune to magical damage, or physical damage, or have specific (and random) objectives to each run. (Think Nyzul Isle with a bit more depth.)

It's not hard to create a system that entertains both aspects. The idea here is to keep the appeal broad.

Endgame shouldn't be something reserved specifically for the hardcore base. And while it's nice to have the HNM system on a forced-pop basis, that only appeals to one category of possible endgame, and it really narrows the scope of play that was burst wide open by Abyssea.

I don't see that as intelligent game design. When you make a change that profound, you kinda need to follow through with it. I don't mind that the Hardcore Players got their hard fights back. In fact, I like it. But keeping the concept of 'endgame' broad will keep more players around.


Anyways, we're getting off topic. There are parts of the game (Granted, some of the older content.) in which RDM's frontline performances do work to benefit due to decreased difficulty and the resulting lower performance needs. There's nothing wrong with developing this further to make the martial aspects of the job more viable.

It would be something optional, but at least acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Ok, I see where you're coming from with the rest of your post, but this is killing me. You can't count the new Gain spells separate from being a true melee buff and then turn around and say they buff melee, but it doesn't count because they were going to anyway previously? We got swords 8 years ago, I think that predates the Gain spells considerably in the "logical progression of melee" thing. Gain-STR is a new spell that's self only, and boosts melee, right there alongside Temper. Logical continuation or not, it is what it is, and those two together are a considerable boost for melee.

We're saying the same thing, just seems like classifying them differently for some reason.

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I have to chime in here, perhaps add some clarity. Gain-Str was added as a natural progression of spells. They didn't add it because Red mage needed some melee power. They added it because it was next up in that line of spells.

When they added Gain-CHR, they weren't just trying to come up with a clever way to keep people from knowing they wanted to boost red melee power.

While I can't know for sure if SE really wants Red to be a melee class.... I can guarantee you that they didn't add that line of spells as a specific means to Boost melee, I just happens that that is one of the things it does.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on STR being a melee stat. I think cid takes issue with it being used as an indicator of what red mage is supposed to become.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

A difference that needs to be blurred, in my opinion.

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Your opinion doesn't count for much, Mr. I-Don't-Have-Time-To-Play-This-Game.

Again, you resort to insults when you can't come up with a good counter.

Are you going to come up with an intellectual reply to the topic or just try to anger me?

My playtime has absolutely nothing to do with this topic except for my leanings towards having this game be more accessible to those who cannot dedicate a regular schedule to the game. My idea makes up for that fact by instead of providing random rewards, making a system that allows for clear progression towards a goal regardless of play frequency. Those who play more would still progress faster given the system I've listed above, but those who live erratic schedules would not be subject to either getting lucky or getting nothing, or, in cases of more organized shells, constantly being at the rear of the list due to having a life outside FFXI.

It actually takes the DKP system and applies it directly into an in-game mechanic and keeps it in context to the event at hand. It also helps regard the RNG troubles that this game is notorious for.

NeoDynamis is going to be full of weak monsters, with a few really hard ones here and there.

The new tiers of VoidWatch are going to be nothing but really hard monsters.

Before this, there was Abyssea and the initial tiers of Voidwatch. A similar dichotomy.

This seems like a fair indication that SE wants to maintain the status quo. Some stuff with fodder mixed in and some stuff with only huge monsters that hate all life and want to snuff it out with unpleasant status effects and area of effect attacks.

Works for me, as long as I never have to spend four hours a day cleaning my house due to boredom that is due to waiting on a dragon again. Although, that spot at the back of my over has never been so free of gunk before or since.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

To spice things up, you can have some monsters in the fodder run be immune to magical damage, or physical damage, or have specific (and random) objectives to each run. (Think Nyzul Isle with a bit more depth.)

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I could get behind the idea of a random immunity like this, it makes me think of how the enemies are in Diablo II on Hell or Nightmare mode would just randomly have some immunity and could seriously screw you over if you weren't versatile.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

NeoDynamis is going to be full of weak monsters, with a few really hard ones here and there.

The new tiers of VoidWatch are going to be nothing but really hard monsters.

Before this, there was Abyssea and the initial tiers of Voidwatch. A similar dichotomy.

This seems like a fair indication that SE wants to maintain the status quo. Some stuff with fodder mixed in and some stuff with only huge monsters that hate all life and want to snuff it out with unpleasant status effects and area of effect attacks.

Works for me, as long as I never have to spend four hours a day cleaning my house due to boredom that is due to waiting on a dragon again. Although, that spot at the back of my over has never been so free of gunk before or since.

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These kind of systems are find to a degree, but the problem is any value in gear is reserved for those who go all the way up in the difficulty tiers which can get rather annoying for those who have to measure the time invested verses the rewards.

That and it doesn't address the desires for a more battlefield approach, as I described earlier.

@Swords. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be enough battlefields that spice it up in a way that can't be predicted and turned into a grind. That sort of random flair always made things active and worthwhile.


*enters into battlefield*

-Destroy Flans!
- Don't Destroy the Bombs!

(bombs are suddenly immune to dark based sleep and have Regain.)

I will say, nyzul island is my favorite event, that said, we can hope dungeon crawl is lined up like that, with some sort of..."DUNGEON MASTER" whom randomly assigns rules and then places adventurers into battle against semi-randomly generated mobs.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

It probably took like 30 seconds to "develop" this spell.

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Lolz, I totally agreed!

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Gain-STR is a negligble melee boost at best, it's just happenstance that it helps melee but we were bound to get it anyway in line with the other Gain-Stat spells. Gain-STR is about +18 STR with good enhancing skill and will probably end up being around 20-25 at 99. That's nice and all but STR isn't very useful in melee damage calculations if your pDIF isn't capped. Considering RDM's sword skill is low and we lack any native +Attack boosting abilities, the +STR really doesn't increase the damage much of our pitiful little sword swings. If it was Gain-Attack and gave us +50-100 attack then we'd be talking melee boost. But +base stats hardly help DD since our accuracy and attack ratings are atrocious in addition to us having much of melee gear aside from Nashira/Expansion augmented gear and a few pre75 pieces. I wouldn't mind SE producing a new set for mages that enhances melee abilities, make it a synergy recipe. Pieces could have tons of +Haste/Acc/Att/ and maybe even an 'enhance sword enhancment spell+X"

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Wtf are you smoking. The purpose of STR is to boost fSTR not boost attack, more attack is a side effect not the primary cause. For low DMG / low delay weapons (dagger / sword) fSTR immensely effects damage potential. The lower your delay and the more attacks you get per unit of measurement, the more important fSTR becomes (until its capped). I'll illustrate.

LV 90 Almace
DMG 61 Delay 224
fSTR cap +14 (rank 6 weapon)

LV 90 Khanda +2 (DA 10)
DMG 55 Delay 252
fSTR cap +14 (rank 6 weapon)

To get +14 fSTR you would need 56 (14 * 4) more STR then the target has VIT, unless your fighting TW's this isn't going to happen on RDM outside abyssea. And thus more STR will ALWAYS be good for RDM. Now how much does capped fSTR improve those weapons ?

61+14 = 75, 75/61 = 1.229, 22.9% improved Damage over Time (DoT).
55+14 = 69, 69/55 = 1.254, 25.4% improved Damage over Time (DoT).
476 combined delay * .70 (30% DW) = 333.2 [334] * .90 (10% DA from sword) = 300.6 delay per attack round. 300.6/2 = 150.3 delay per swing.

75+69 = 144 DMG with capped fSTR, 144/2 = 72 DMG averaged per swing.
61+55 = 116 DMG with no fSTR, 116/2 = 58 DMG averaged per swing.
72/58 = 1.241, 24.1% increase in damage averaged per swing from capped fSTR.

Now lets use Ukon,
LV 90 Ukon
DMG 131 Delay 482
fSTR cap of +22, rank 16 weapon. Requires 88 more STR then the target has VIT, no WAR will have this on anything not TW outside abyssea in TP gear (73 required after the weapon's STR is counted). Thus more STR will always help WAR outside abyssea.

131 + 22 = 153/131 = 1.167, 16.7% increase in Damage over Time from capped fSTR.
Now since this is a 2H weapon I don't need to factor in DW or other non-haste based delay reduction.

That huge GAXE gets a 16.7% damage bonus from having 22 fTR (88 extra STR) while the swords above get a 24.1% damage bonus from only having 14 fSTR (56 extra STR), or 17 STR less then the WAR. Now lets go a bit deeper, the swords are getting that 24.1% bonus every 150.3 delay (once each swing) while the GAXE is getting its 16.7% damage bonus once every 482 delay.

482/150.3 = 3.206, basically the sword is swinging %320 faster then the GAXE for 2.1 times less damage (153/72). Everything else being equal the sword would win DPS (WS is a different situation). Now WAR's obviously have more attack / accuracy, haste (Hasso) and DA/TA for reducing average delay further.

Now I'm not comparing WAR to RDM, merely using their weapons to demonstrate that STR favors lower damage / faster weapons more then it does higher damage / slower weapons. STR is like enspells, it's calculated per hit with no respect to how fast your hitting and is a static value that doesn't scale well with higher DMG.

In short, I have +17 Gain-STAT now at 426 enhancing magic, the update between 90 and 95 is +7 skill per level for 461 skill (assuming no other gear), that equals a +21 STR bonus. 21/4 = 5.25 fSTR, we get +5 DMG for free with a 25% chance of +6. Assuming the skill scaling remains the same, then 99 will be 28 more skill or 489 skill for +23.9 STR. That is +5 with a 75% chance of +6, or if you can get 1 more enhancing magic for 490 skill you end up wtih +24 STR and +6 fSTR all the time.

So yeah Gain-STR is immense, it's fricking huge. I would take Gain-STR over Gain-DEX anyway, unless your fighting something weak enough to put you over 20 dDEX. Now if we got +crit damage gear and a ton more +DEX on +Haste gear, then Gain-DEX might be looked at for bumping our crit rate up (dDEX 40 to 50 is +10% crit rate).

Ok what the heck are people referring to as "end game" anyway? I keep hearing it mentioned and that somehow RDM's melee is worthless because we can't melee on "end game" mobs.

Considering I've meleeing on just about every "mega boss" other then PW (I'm too busy taking care of people to have time for meleeing, and I need to stay alive at all costs to keep the mages alive), I really don't understand the whole "RDM can't melee on end game" angle. Now this being said, on anything dangerous I'm usually /DRK now for denying the NM's super mega move of doom (if it's possible to do), so I'm not DWing. I stand in the back WITH EVERY OTHER MELEE and support the mages, tanks and our THF's as TH is built to 9~10 (we've seen 11 once). Once this is done, the fight proceeds in one of two ways.

First the leaders give a "kill it now" order, in which case all the melee's (including me) rush to the NM and proceed to rip it a new defecation orifice. I'm already prebuffed prior to this happening, the leaders communicate to me right before they do this and I use Saboteur Dia III (20~25% defense down due to NM stupid resistance) for a 29% bonus to everyone's attack. We all rush in, I use LR SE and proceed to CDC and ride SE until its dead. Everyone goes nuts and the NM dies 30~60s later.

The second method is if a NM has some sort of super mega death move that can kill all the DD's super fast. What the leaders do then is call in groups of melees 2~3 at a time and let them whack away for a bit, then swap in others (including myself). The idea is not to have all your DD's in range in case the NM use's "mega death move" and kill's any non-tank near it. This ensures the healer's aren't suddenly overburdened with 6~10 people in critical HP. As a RDM I tend to survive just about everything they throw at me and can keep myself alive near indefinitly. I've actually short term tanked things by cycling (Stoneskin -> Blink -> Cure IV -> Cure IV -> Stoneskin (aquaveil if it was used up previously), I can't do it forever but It'll prevent NM's from killing me if I pull hate due to a hate-reset move.

So I've yet to see the whole "RDM's can't melee HNM's" angle. We don't die easily, seriously we don't.

The thing I don't get is, if this won't allow RDM's to melee "end-game" and will only buff the solo play then why are people throwing their dummies out of their pram so much.

SquareEnix already said that new spells were coming for RDM, along with the Enfeebling fix but they wouldn't be able to do it this update due to the time it takes...

So just let people be happy-ish about Temper, it would have taken them a small period of time to make it as it literally was a spell that just granted the Double attack trait while active to add to an update where they'd have had little to add for RDM.

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The thing I don't get is, if this won't allow RDM's to melee "end-game" and will only buff the solo play then why are people throwing their dummies out of their pram so much.

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That's the thing, RDM doesn't need anything to be able to "melee in end game", they already can. It's simply looking at the problem from a different point of view. There is currently nothing keeping a RDM from meleeing other then community pressure and cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It's a really good term / theory to describe the current state of RDM in FFXI. There are many people who absolutely believe a RDM should never pick up a sword and lolMeleeRDM. No amount of explanation, demonstration or evidence to the contrary will change their beliefs. It's because if they did stop and actually see where we're coming from their preconceived notions would go way and they'd be faced with the very real truth that they were wrong. This is an extremely uncomfortable feeling and attacks the ego, thus subconsciously their mind rejects the idea out of hand in order to protect the ego.

I've demonstrated how to do it years ago, practically wrote books on the subject. Everything from gear setups to potential sub combos for different situations, and even situations where you should not melee at all. The situations are not "end game" but rather in any situation where your available time is taxed to the limit and thus there simply isn't enough time to melee. When your cure bombing people and spamming -na magic / erase (/SCH) / dispel / with the occasional Haste / Refresh, AND running around to take care of business, then it would most likely not be wise to melee. Basically if your stuck playing a mini WHM, then it would be prudent to keep the staff on and do mage work, your keeping people alive. But if your not playing mini WHM, there is very little reason to NOT melee, they make echo's for a reason.

The anti-melee crowd doesn't seem to realize, the game is going to get continual updates. Even after we hit 99, there will be more changes and more updates for as long as the game is alive. Everyone is panicking like this is the "big one"...

Let us have our Temper and Gain-STR, WS adjustments and gear. You'll get your mage-only toys soon enough.

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Originally Posted by saevel

That's the thing, RDM doesn't need anything to be able to "melee in end game", they already can. It's simply looking at the problem from a different point of view. There is currently nothing keeping a RDM from meleeing other then community pressure and cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It's a really good term / theory to describe the current state of RDM in FFXI. There are many people who absolutely believe a RDM should never pick up a sword and lolMeleeRDM. No amount of explanation, demonstration or evidence to the contrary will change their beliefs. It's because if they did stop and actually see where we're coming from their preconceived notions would go way and they'd be faced with the very real truth that they were wrong. This is an extremely uncomfortable feeling and attacks the ego, thus subconsciously their mind rejects the idea out of hand in order to protect the ego.

I've demonstrated how to do it years ago, practically wrote books on the subject. Everything from gear setups to potential sub combos for different situations, and even situations where you should not melee at all. The situations are not "end game" but rather in any situation where your available time is taxed to the limit and thus there simply isn't enough time to melee. When your cure bombing people and spamming -na magic / erase (/SCH) / dispel / with the occasional Haste / Refresh, AND running around to take care of business, then it would most likely not be wise to melee. Basically if your stuck playing a mini WHM, then it would be prudent to keep the staff on and do mage work, your keeping people alive. But if your not playing mini WHM, there is very little reason to NOT melee, they make echo's for a reason.

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Sounds like a lot of people rode the merit-pt gravy train and never got off. Rode that train straight to Abyssea-ville. The game is a lot bigger than a couple HNM's.

saevel Sometimes you make me want to hop to your server for a bit and see how you get it done.

Maybe I should make a mule that hops servers and takes a look at various RDMs in the game and chronicle how they play. I bet there's a different style for every one.

That could be cool, hell even a interview, screenshot, and make a cool little webpage for it, vanity shots and all.

I won't get too grandiose about it but I think it's a good idea to do once in a while. A full comparison on what each player enjoys the most about it, and how they work with the difficulties both mechanical and social, surrounding the practice.

If it goes well, might make it a regular thing.

Well, as regular as I can get anyways.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I won't get too grandiose about it but I think it's a good idea to do once in a while. A full comparison on what each player enjoys the most about it, and how they work with the difficulties both mechanical and social, surrounding the practice.

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"Well, sometimes a friend comes over while I'm playing Final Fantasy XI...I try to obscure my computer screen with my torso and tell him or her that I'm watching fetish videos of a lady in a latex clown suit smothering kittens with a pillow taped to her shoes. After that, the friend usually doesn't look at the screen closely enough to find out that I'm actually playing an MMORPG. In this way, my dorky secret remains safe."

Oh, I guess you mean social within FFXI...

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

saevel Sometimes you make me want to hop to your server for a bit and see how you get it done.

Maybe I should make a mule that hops servers and takes a look at various RDMs in the game and chronicle how they play. I bet there's a different style for every one.

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Depends what your current end game affiliation / LS is. Are you in one?

Currently I'm in Avalon
http://avalon.guildwork.com/
http://www.ffxiah.com/linkshell/Lakshmi/KnightofAvalon

We're very member focused, if a member wants some piece of gear we'll find a way to get it for them. It's how I got full +2 Emp armor on most of my jobs as well as getting my Almace. Whenever a member joins they get Main / Sub jobs (LS picks main based on need, you pick sub based on desire) and then you pick an Emp weapon you want. Anyhow because we're not a H2H Blue only LS we use two PLD's as our tanking team, so our tactics are different then all the (MNK + WHM + THF ONRY) groups out there. Inside abyssea I'm almost always BLU, sometimes WAR (if we need red !!) or if we're set for jobs then I'll just come whatever. Outside abyssea is where I'm almost always RDM, usually /DRK for stun. My job outside is to support the two tanks and healer, keep the BLM's alive whenever possible, do battle raise's, Keep Slow II / Dia III on the NM, and then deal damage in whatever form is best at that time. Sometimes this involved me nuking from afar, and sometimes its me rushing in with all the other melee's and lighting a NM up. In all situations I have to judge when it's prudent to do each action and keep things moving forward. Saboteur Dia III has become a favorite for VWNM's, after white proc you have a good chunk of time and the more damage that is dealt the biggest boost you get to spectral alignment. Within one to two procs we can cap alignment in all categories and that's when the kill order is usually given, unless it's an incredibly dangerous NM.

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Depends what your current end game affiliation / LS is. Are you in one?

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Nothing dedicated, just a social that does events and helps with gear.

I haven't had the playtime for it to be a wise choice to get knee deep in a dedicated 'endgame' LS for quite a long time ,as my living arrangements had gone through a lot of chances over the years.

Currently I'm employed in the evenings except Friday and Saturday which are long day mornings. Kinda kills my availability.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Nothing dedicated, just a social that does events and helps with gear.

I haven't had the playtime for it to be a wise choice to get knee deep in a dedicated 'endgame' LS for quite a long time ,as my living arrangements had gone through a lot of chances over the years.

Currently I'm employed in the evenings except Friday and Saturday which are long day mornings. Kinda kills my availability.

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I'm in a similar situation. I have a full time day, 10am to 7pm KST from mon to fri. Along with a social life to maintain, friends and a serious relationship with my GF. The real kicker for me is because I'm in South Korea, my play times are completely out of whack with the rest of the English speaking population. I abhorred "end game" for years and mostly did things with friends who were in the same TZ as me, eventually most of the quit. Thankfully Avalon is a EU mostly shell, events are at 3am my time, which if I'm careful with my sleep schedule I can make.