Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

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Originally Posted by Frost

If you want to get nit-picky then I'll say, there's times where you just can't move the mob...

And no, no one deserves to have anything stolen from them. No one "deserves" to lose the work they put into something when the other 17 people are in complete control.

Hell, if you instated a process as suggested, there's no down side to it. Leaving it the way it is only leaves the door open for theft. Given the two options, which is more fair to the entire gaming populace? One that allows people to steal form one another? Or one that opens up content for people of all skill levels without the fear of theft and having their work go to waist because someone has an oversized sense of self-entitlement?

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You continually use the word steal. GMs will rectify situations where NMs are stolen, period. The problem is, we are not talking about stealing.

Ex1:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B's Paladin casts Cure 1 on Group A's Paladin.
Group B's Paladin proceeds to 2hr/Sentinel/spam his Enmity up to cap.
Nidhogg moves out of range of Group A's Paladin, and goes White due to Disengage.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash and claims Nidhogg because he was on the hate list.

Nidhogg was stolen.

Ex2:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B waits patiently nearby, but does not act on any member of Group A.
Group A's Paladin dies with sole claim, there are no other melees hitting Nidhogg and no mage casting on it.
Nidhogg goes White.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash then uses Shield Bash before anyone in Group A acts.

Nidhogg was not stolen.

This is the distinction that GMs made over the years, and has nothing to do with race. As far as they are concerned, unless there was foul play involved, any transfer of claim can be considered legitimate.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

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You know how the claim system works, and you want it changed. Singular, not plural. Yet the only half-legitimate example you have been able to provide is the case of a "Tank" class character disconnecting with hate. As rog pointed out, it's honestly nowhere near difficult to pull hate off a tank in 30-60 seconds =/ especially when said tank is going to be auto-attacking without taking any actions, offensive or defensive, and will likely be bleeding CE unless they're a counterstanced Mnk or an Ochain PLD.

I will absolutely stand by my assertion that it is not difficult at all for a group that understands the claim system to keep claim on a monster.

So a group of 18 people farm up:

A ridiculous amount of trash mobs to get pop items for:

An NM Limule
An NM Clionid
An NM Mandragora
An NM Corpselight
An NM Courel
An NM Eft

As well as taking the pop items those drop and farming MORE trash mobs to pop:

An NM Hectaeyes
An NM Scorpion
An NM Bat
An NM Cockatrice
An NM Manticore

As well as:

An NM Turtle
An NM Gnat
An NM Sandworm

Then pop:

An HNM Mandragora
An HNM Sandworm

To eventually pop:

An HNM turtle.

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frost

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

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Unfortunately, yes. If your group is so afraid of an NM that they can't for 1 second have someone Dia it, Gravity it, or something on it to keep it from going unclaimed, by the games own rules, if it goes white, its free game.

I'm not saying I would take the mob, If the player is in control I morally allow them to continue fighting. But it is absolutely not against the ToS. Its not "Stealing". Its 100% legal.

Thats all he is arguing if i'm reading his posts right. He's only trying to explain to people the difference between stealing and Claiming a fair mob.

If your group is so unorganize/afraid of an NM that not one person out of 18 people stop for 1 second and claim the mob to keep it from going unclaimed, if it goes white, its fair game to any group in range.

Fair? Subjective
Legal by games rules? Yes.
Would i take it? no. I would not take anything until the group is fully wiped. even then, if i dont need the mob i leave it alone.

Example: Yesterday ran by some really really gimp group trying to kill Carabosse. it was a WHM and a WAR i think, they wiped, It went unclaimed and idle, it walked right past me, and i didn't touch it cause it would have been an absolute waste of my time to claim it.

The WHM then Reraise and proceeded to zombie it.



Also:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frost

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

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Claim =/= Deadly weapon. You appear to be trying to tell us that Learning how to keep claim on a monster wont help us keep claim on a monster, this is incorrect. If you learn about a bullet, it would be more akin to learning how to prevent death from being shot.

Like, a Bullet proof Vest, Proper medical treatment, Bullet-proof Glassing, etc.

Its a bad analogy, but i did my best with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frost

So a group of 18 people farm up:

A ridiculous amount of trash mobs to get pop items for:

An NM Limule
An NM Clionid
An NM Mandragora
An NM Corpselight
An NM Courel
An NM Eft

As well as taking the pop items those drop and farming MORE trash mobs to pop:

An NM Hectaeyes
An NM Scorpion
An NM Bat
An NM Cockatrice
An NM Manticore

As well as:

An NM Turtle
An NM Gnat
An NM Sandworm

Then pop:

An HNM Mandragora
An HNM Sandworm

To eventually pop:

An HNM turtle.

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

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I never said anything about whether or not I would take someone's mob, or what someone's effort to create a pop set is worth (Lacovie is a bad example, it takes maybe 15-30 minutes depending on your luck to make a lacovie set via Gold Box since it's only 2 KI).

However, if everyone scatters and disengages to avoid nukes when they were engaged in the first place, yes, they will lose claim. People (should) know that. That is why, hopefully, they would not be attempting to use such a strategy.

For the record, it is perfectly possible to kite a mob that you have sole claim over while being greater than 30' away. You simply have to take an action against the mob after you have disengaged to reassert your "Non-Engaged" claim. Does Kirin go unclaimed when a kiter out-ranges a Stonega IV? Nope. Would Kirin go unclaimed if a DD who was the last person to hit Kirin turned and disengaged? Yup.

Yes, your intentionally extravagant scenario would result in an unfortunate loss for the party. However, it should not come as any surprise to them that it happened. Sometimes you have to make concessions in strategy in order to cement your claim on a monster. The point that I am leaping around is that all of the melee should not have scattered to the wind in the first place, as they would know that it could cause a claim loss.

GMs wont do anything unless someone has had claim on the mob and not done any damage for an hour. Beyond that they dont care. And abyssea mobs don't rage, except smok and maybe rani, he gets some damage reduction. 10 min depop timer or leave it as it is. 10 min is more then enough to proc and kill anything. If it isn't enough for your group, get better.

ppl should kno how keep calm of a Nm this stuff would not happen.

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Originally Posted by Kya

ppl should kno how keep calm of a Nm this stuff would not happen.

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I usually keep NMs calm by giving them chamomile tea. How do you do it?

I've never understood what the act of drawing or putting your weapon away has to do with claim at all? If you can claim without weapons drawn with spells and JA, why does putting your weapon away cause a loss of claim at all? If this particular and completely moronic element of the claim system was completely removed from the equation, problem solved for all scenarios.

I agree with 100% with the spirit of this thread. I think the implementation of the proposed fix, however, would cause other problems that would enable infinite zombying, as others have said.

Removing the disengage being tied to claim fixes the problem.

Also, I do not think everyone is "working as intended". If you don't think the claim system is buggy because of engaging/disengaging, then ask yourselves this:

Why can you ranged attack without weapons drawn, but not ranged WS? Doesn't that imply a much larger coding issue with the entire engage system?