Question about Treasure Hunter, Aurix and Dynamis Divergence!

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Originally Posted by Delgear

Sorry I have read the entire thread, and the information on BG. It is CLEAR to me that your initial hit applies a maximum of TH 8, however is there any benefit to having more than TH8 when trying to upgrade to higher TH values ? does it help ?

BG claims it compares your current TH tot he monsters present TH level which would lead you to believe having higher than TH8 can help.

but in both spots are times it lists TH 8 as the "cap"

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I originally replied to this topic in a thread where Community Rep Camate explain "TH rate of decay" to us back in 2012. Please read here:

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:

1. Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow)
2. Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster.
3. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative.
4. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

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There is still current debate in the community and I'll explain where Catmato and myself diverge.

Confirmed: SE has told us that the TH proc rate starts out at some percentage X, and each subsequent TH proc reduces the chance of another TH proc occurring. In other words, every subsequent TH proc, decreases the chance of another TH proc occurring. (This means wearing more TH than the current TH proc level, will keep your proc rate constant/from diminishing). You can see in the chart I posted how this is supposed to work.

Opinion #1: The opinion expressed by Catmato is referring to a test performed by FFXI player Thorny here: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/5...-14/7/#3688687. His testing implies that wearing TH+8 and TH+15 respectively, did not meaningfully show any difference in TH proc rates from TH8->9 or 9->10 or 11->12, so on, and so forth. For people who believe Thorny's sample size to be large enough, they take this statement as gospel and simply stop wearing more than TH+8 (+5 in gear as Catmato) said.

https://i.imgur.com/24UnLqP.png/
https://i.imgur.com/asQCwWk.png

Opinion #2: As you can see in Thorny's data above, we only have ~97 TH10 procs in 9970 hits, 37 TH11 procs and 19 TH12 procs. If these proc rates are meant to be independent rates (because they decay after all), the proc rate's sample size is too small. We would need x10 or x100 more procs to even say with confidence that proc rate has decayed a meager amount like, say 2% for each subsequent TH proc. In my original reply, you can see that I chose a number like 10% decay, but that would have shown up in Thorny's data).

Reality/Conclusion: These are the two schools of thought with respect to TH proc'ing. As players, we test everything because there have been translation and configuration errors in the past. But, we also have fun unlocking FFXI's mysteries! Do whichever method you prefer. Have fun doing it!

This is where SE can help us: Please simply tell us if TH proc rate decays for all levels of TH and if Camate's 2012 reply applies to all TH1-14. (Bonus: Does Hoxne Ring reduce this rate of decay? Is the "increase by 5%" applied additively or multiplicatively? The item description isn't clear).

If a GM replies with "YES" to this thread, then we should have TH9 when we proc TH9 and TH10 when we proc TH+10, TH11 when we proc TH11, and so on, to mitigate the rate of decay as Camate said in 2012.

I don't take it as gospel. I take the statements from SE themselves being backed up the testing in that BG thread to be good enough evidence. On top of that, with the difference between TH4 and TH8 alone being negligible, severely gimping DPS by slowly meleeing in TH+20 gear trying to upgrade it even farther is not worth anybody's time.

Catmato, my response wasn't meant towards you specifically. My bad, I didn't mean for it to come across as that way! ....I don't want to debate what is worthy of anyone's time. (We play an MMORPG, which in and of itself, is very time-consuming!).

However, SE did give us this chart below. Your are right to say that TH4 vs TH8 in many cases doesn't matter that much, at least when a precious Party Slot in 6-man content is conerned! I can see why people may argue that even bring a thief at all, and tat TH might be a waste of time. Now, TH4 vs TH8 does pick up for items that are Rare to Ultra Rare ...but if we compare TH8 vs TH14 in a given situation, I think we probably decided to bring a Thief, if an event has comparing those levels of TH.

https://i.imgur.com/9lvTmrg.png

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

too long, not quoting, scroll up to read the rest.

Reality/Conclusion: These are the two schools of thought with respect to TH proc'ing. As players, we test everything because there have been translation and configuration errors in the past. But, we also have fun unlocking FFXI's mysteries! Do whichever method you prefer. Have fun doing it!

This is where SE can help us: Please simply tell us if TH proc rate decays for all levels of TH and if Camate's 2012 reply applies to all TH1-14. (Bonus: Does Hoxne Ring reduce this rate of decay? Is the "increase by 5%" applied additively or multiplicatively? The item description isn't clear).

If a GM replies with "YES" to this thread, then we should have TH9 when we proc TH9 and TH10 when we proc TH+10, TH11 when we proc TH11, and so on, to mitigate the rate of decay as Camate said in 2012.

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As for Hoxne Ring. It's additive with Gifts, and the gifts are multiplicative with base upgrade rates. If not, then we would see a far larger change in upgrade rate which would be obvious and would have made that ring sell on AH 10x or more it's current prices.

I don't take Thorny's test as gospel either. I take it as our best testing to date regarding the argument and would challenge anyone who wants to prove him wrong to do a similar, larger test themselves.

Sigh why are you guys ressurecting this again....

The devs/community team haven't replied to anything here in a very long time, you're living in a fantasy if you think you're ever going to get a confirmation or denial of anything.

I dunno why gwyd fusses over this so much. More TH is always better than less, I don't see how any confirmation or denial of any of this would change the way you use THF in any activity.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Catmato, my response wasn't meant towards you specifically. My bad, I didn't mean for it to come across as that way! ....I don't want to debate what is worthy of anyone's time. (We play an MMORPG, which in and of itself, is very time-consuming!).

However, SE did give us this chart below. Your are right to say that TH4 vs TH8 in many cases doesn't matter that much, at least when a precious Party Slot in 6-man content is conerned! I can see why people may argue that even bring a thief at all, and tat TH might be a waste of time. Now, TH4 vs TH8 does pick up for items that are Rare to Ultra Rare ...but if we compare TH8 vs TH14 in a given situation, I think we probably decided to bring a Thief, if an event has comparing those levels of TH.

https://i.imgur.com/9lvTmrg.png

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Sigh why are you guys ressurecting this again....

The devs/community team haven't replied to anything here in a very long time, you're living in a fantasy if you think you're ever going to get a confirmation or denial of anything.

I dunno why gwyd fusses over this so much. More TH is always better than less, I don't see how any confirmation or denial of any of this would change the way you use THF in any activity.

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Clearly, there are people who don't think "More TH is better" and stop at TH8.

I stop at TH4. I can kill at least 2x as fast on BLU and I single-box, so I won't have a pocket alt to TH things for me.
Already have nearly all the HTMB drops that are useful so that is no longer a concern either.

If I did have a pocket thief, I would probably empy+3 feet + hoxne ring only. even if TH has a rolling cap at current rank, that let's me TH up to 11 before I would see a difference and the likelihood of a mob surviving long enough for that to reduce my TH from upgrading further would still be minimal.

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Clearly, there are people who don't think "More TH is better" and stop at TH8.

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People stop at TH8 because that's the furhtest you can go with gear, this isn't anything new and has been long established. But the rarer the drop category, the more impact TH has mathematically, going from a ~3x drop rate increase for common with maximum TH to a 15x better drop rate for ultra rare.

This whole debate is over something else, which again, I don't see how knowledge of what happens changes whether or not you bring THF and/or how you actually end up using it.

Though for less rare drops, sure, you don't need to bend over as hard to still get something in a reasonable timeframe. Subbing THF on any job allows up to TH4 today and you still get a meaningful increase with that.

Bring a RNG for Bounty Shot. I actually got up to TH5 the other day.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

However, SE did give us this chart below. Your are right to say that TH4 vs TH8 in many cases doesn't matter that much, at least when a precious Party Slot in 6-man content is conerned! I can see why people may argue that even bring a thief at all, and tat TH might be a waste of time. Now, TH4 vs TH8 does pick up for items that are Rare to Ultra Rare ...but if we compare TH8 vs TH14 in a given situation, I think we probably decided to bring a Thief, if an event has comparing those levels of TH.

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This is a legit question, not trolling or meant to be combative: What content that's relevant today actually relies on drops from TH? Is that content really worth trying to cap TH in a single fight vs just running the same thing twice at TH8-10 (or whatever upgrades just happen)?