Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Your argument is that utility makes up for gaps in damage. I am here to tell you that aside from 2 handers providing utility of their own, this is not true. It doesn't matter what "utility" my blue mage brings, it's not going to make up for the fact that a 2 hander can, by default, do 25% more damage than I can, and reach this max much easier.

nope

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Blue for example is almost overpowered with utility. How many sleeps they have? How many are aoe? How many stuns? How many heals? Do they have aoe erase? Why yes they do. Can they self skillchain easily? Can they do heavy aoe damage? Are they arguably the strongest job in low man content or not? IF blue mage is anywhere close to 2 handed DD on High end content it would be horribly "unbalanced." You think people don't care about this utility? You can't throw a byne bill anywhere in game without it hitting one of the hundreds of blues running around. That is one job that never needs an upgrade.

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Originally Posted by TheBarrister

A big enticement for me to do Walk of Echoes would be for it to drop heavy metal pouches.

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I like the idea of plates being added to lower fluxes, perhaps add pouches to 12~15, and Cinder/Dross to 15.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Holy sh!t. I've never been for a rate down button on this forum but right now I'm extremely close. Are people still demanding nerfs to WAR/DRK resolution out of spite instead of the appropriate buffs to Entropy / Upheaval / MT?

Nerfing Res / Rag won't change a damn thing. DRK's use it because Scyth sucks right now, haste gear is so easy to acquire that Apoc's lost much of it's usefulness in pure damage. Still rocks for DRK PDT tanking though. WAR's switch between Ukko / Res depending on their target. Rag is just more convenient to acquire. You can spam dyna every day for the currency and build it vs Ukko requiring you to farm Abyssea's NMs, one of which is an annoying sh!t to build pop sets for.

The whole reason you see WAR + DRK as the top DD's is due to how high their damage potential can be buffed to. There is nothing that throwing more buffs onto them can't fix, vs SAM and DRG which have natural limitations imposed on them. DRG must chose between /WAR and /SAM, and SAM's GKT smacks into a damage ceiling which nothing can be done about (low total fTP on Shoha and Fudo). 1H all suck in situations when your fighting high level targets for the reasons Moten already stated. Their actually competitive when fighting ~7 LCF targets though or when everyone is underbuffed (low man / small man fights).

If people are going to comments on the relative damage hierarchy, at least understand why it is the way it is. Otherwise your just muddying up the waters even further and have become counter productive.

-=Edit=-

SAM and DRG do have a method of overcoming their systematic limits. Their respective mythics are world shaking awesomeness. Being mythics their incredibly rare and often left out of the damage comparison. A Ryunohige DRG and Kogarasumaru SAM are on equal footing as a Rag / Ukon DRK / WAR. Conqueror is also a pretty epic weapon though Upheaval could use some adjusting.

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Resolution is still too good compared to everything else. You already said that relics are easier to make than other alternatives, much less OaT Greatswords. Make a crappy system where the best is also the easiest and all of a sudden there are a ton of 'the best' overnight. Resolution doesn't need to be what it is for this game to still be good. It would just require jobs to go back to working on more difficult content.

Scythes do most certainly need a buff. Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy are all junk compared to similar WS. Insurgency is the reason that DRK mythic is so bad. Quietus is an amazing LOOKING WS, but that is it. Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK. Anything you would use a Scythe for could be done better with a Greatsword at this point. Even DRK/THF for best Epeen/screenshot numbers goes to Torcleaver instead of Spiral Hell.

Ragnarok is the highest DPS Weapon in the game and has the best WS in the game as far as output goes. Buffed or unbuffed, Resolution beats Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency without trying. Scythes are the loser in all situations involving DPS to greatswords and their WSs. There is no reason to use Scythes anymore. They need to buff Scythes, give DRKs reasons to need MP, and take Resolution down a peg.

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

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DRG just needs to have Gungir's additional affect snipped off or modified to work with instead of against Angon so that their job can function properly. SAM is good, just not great and SAM are used to being great. Both Mythics make both jobs damage Juggernauts because of the way both jobs work with WSing. At least with SAM, the Masamune is easy to make and plays well with Tachi: Shoha. Gungir and Rhongomiant are both junk and everyone knows it that actually plays.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Resolution is still too good compared to everything else. You already said that relics are easier to make than other alternatives, much less OaT Greatswords. Make a crappy system where the best is also the easiest and all of a sudden there are a ton of 'the best' overnight. Resolution doesn't need to be what it is for this game to still be good. It would just require jobs to go back to working on more difficult content.

Scythes do most certainly need a buff. Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy are all junk compared to similar WS. Insurgency is the reason that DRK mythic is so bad. Quietus is an amazing LOOKING WS, but that is it. Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK. Anything you would use a Scythe for could be done better with a Greatsword at this point. Even DRK/THF for best Epeen/screenshot numbers goes to Torcleaver instead of Spiral Hell.

Ragnarok is the highest DPS Weapon in the game and has the best WS in the game as far as output goes. Buffed or unbuffed, Resolution beats Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency without trying. Scythes are the loser in all situations involving DPS to greatswords and their WSs. There is no reason to use Scythes anymore. They need to buff Scythes, give DRKs reasons to need MP, and take Resolution down a peg.

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

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DRG just needs to have Gungir's additional affect snipped off or modified to work with instead of against Angon so that their job can function properly. SAM is good, just not great and SAM are used to being great. Both Mythics make both jobs damage Juggernauts because of the way both jobs work with WSing. At least with SAM, the Masamune is easy to make and plays well with Tachi: Shoha. Gungir and Rhongomiant are both junk and everyone knows it that actually plays.

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Except you weren't talking about buffing Scyth / ect. You were talking about Nerfing Rag / Resolution to force WAR's to use GAXE and to force DRK's to use Scyth. Nerfing Res and DRK will still use Rag, Scyth sucks that much. Buff Scyth and there is a chance that it would be viable. Plus Resolution has an 8% attack penalty, that becomes VERY noticeable when your not buffed. And as I said before, the whole reason we use WAR + DRK is because we can keep throwing more buffs on them to ensure every combat variable is capped out. It becomes a game of which combination of job + weapon has the highest possible cap on their variables.

As I said above, spouting sh!t without knowing the mechanics behind the decisions of the player base has you doing nothing but mudding up the waters.

For those who do pure math I believe mythic SAM is actually the most overpowered job. Any nerf to resolution would also have to include a nerf to Shoha in the interest of fairness.

Also tp bonus SAM is every bit as powerful as OAT GS Drk

My personal opinion on Matsui-san ideas

• 1-handed modifiers
  Currently 2handed weapons have a 1:0,75 conversion rate from stats (STR>Attack, DEX>Accuracy etc), while 1-handed weapons have 1:0,5
  I welcome any kind of change to 1-handed weapons jobs, altough I'm a bit unsure if this could be the right solution.
  Let's go back in time a bit and remember why the ration was changed. Yes, long time ago 2handed weapons had 1:0,5 ratio too. It was changed mainly in the attempt to make some jobs use the weapons they were originally meant to use, for example Warrior using Great Axe. Initially it was changed to 1:1, and then to 1:0,75 after a while.
  It took a while to the player base to get used to it, but it sorta worked.
  2handed jobs were mostly preferred to 1 handed jobs because of the damage tier of their weapons, because of their higher attack, because of their higher accuracy, because they were giving the enemy less TP. (this is another very important mechanism of FFXI that should be addressed. Some times some monsters are easier if fought with less people than more, and this is kinda ridiculous if you ask me)
  
  Changing the modifier ratio for 1handed weapon users (only for the main weapon and not offhand?) brings the risk of making some 1handed weapons jobs too strong, hence requiring furhter nerfs after the change. People hate nerfs, if you think something is gonna be too powerful and require a nerf after, just don't do it.
  
  Aren't there really any other solutions? Some job trait that only activates when you use 1 handed weapons and that gives some bonus of some sort?
  
• Merit Points weapon skills
  Sorry but the suggested change won't make anybody happy and won't change a thing.
  We currently have two main kind of users we can think of
  1) "Easy" players
  2) "Hardcore" players
  
  The first category doesn't really care much about being best at anything, they just enjoy the game no matter what. This category of players already makes use of 1/5 upgrades weapon skills, they are not complaining about the current situation, changing it won't bring any effect on this category.
  
  The second category is made by people who really want to excel at things. If they do something, they want it to be the best possible. If they take a weapon skill, they want it to be the best.
  Making it 65% with 1/5 won't be enough, because it still won't be as good as it can possibly be. They'll still want to get 5/5 and they'll still complain they can't do it for more than 3 weapon skills.
  
  Really Mr. Matsui, I don't see why you and your team are being so adamant in not allowing a merit cap increase.
  People are running out of jobs to experience, they are running out of things to merit. Giving them more stuff to "buy" with merits would only increase the value of merit points, the value of getting them, and would keep the cycle on.
  If things go on like this soon there won't be any player left who still look for experience points, leaving those who do in a mess because they won't be able to find a group to do experience points with.
  
  I really don't see what's the point in limiting the Weapon Skills category.
  Please, if you think there is a good reason explain it to us, maybe I will agree with you after reading it.
  Thank you.
  
• Elemental Magic Adjustments
  I have mixed feelings about these changes.
  Some of the things you proposed look very good, but having different element spells require different stats will only make it worse.
  Compared to other games FFXI mechanisms are already particularly complicated.
  If you do that change people will need different sets, different gear for each different element.
  A set to nuke for earth spell, a set to nuke for fire spell, a set to nuke for thunder spells.
  It would be a mess, especially with our limited inventories.
  At the moment, altough there are some specific equipments (elemental obis, staves etc) you want the same stats for the same spell. Making you require to focus on, say, intellect for earth and then, say, Mab for Thunder, would only make things even more complicated than they already are.
  Plese, don't do that.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Except you weren't talking about buffing Scyth / ect. You were talking about Nerfing Rag / Resolution to force WAR's to use GAXE and to force DRK's to use Scyth. Nerfing Res and DRK will still use Rag, Scyth sucks that much. Buff Scyth and there is a chance that it would be viable.

As I said above, spouting sh!t without knowing the mechanics behind the decisions of the player base has you doing nothing but mudding up the waters.

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Really? because my first post about this subject said take a hit off of resolution and add it to Entropy and Quietus. Buff Scythes, nerf greatsword was in my second post. I play DRK with a Scythe or Dual Wielding 1H axes which is why I don't play DRK anymore. It's not my job anymore. It doesn't look like my old job. And I have no interest in going back to it with a greatsword and still no good magic. Then I would just be WAR-1 or maybe WAR-0.5.

Please just cuss if you are going to cuss and stop thinking everyone is an idiot. It makes you look really foolish some days when we all know you aren't an idiot.


I'm most interested in whether the Haste on LR is going to be just for 2H or for everyone. If it's for everyone, I can see a lot of jobs using /DRK if there is 15% Haste along with 15% attack up and defense down, compared to 25% up and down from berserk. This might be really nice considering that losing Defense might actually become a problem soon. MNK/DRK, BLU/DRK, DNC/DRK I can see becoming really popular because they all have the ability to heal themselves in the event that they use Soul Eater for WSs and SCs. Any job with native dual wield will probably look hard at /DRK.

RDM will as usual come out behind because they don't have native dual wield. BLU/DRK would destroy RDM/Anything for DPS if they are given an additional 15% Haste with LR, Attack Traits, and SE. If for some reason RDM was given Dual Wield 3 natively and could RDM/DRK under the same conditions, I would probably never stop playing this game. $$$ and such until they shut down the servers.

DRK itself almost comes out ahead because they have the option of Abyss Sollerets to recoup some of their lost Defense from LR. So in the case that they have to be defensive, they can keep their offense as high as WAR, but possibly have higher Defense.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK.

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Actually, that's an interesting little aside. With the magic changes, the cast times on T1-T3 nukes went down considerably. T1 are near-instant; T2 are the same speed as :ni ninjutsu; T3 are as fast as Thunder is now. Plus they're all significantly more MP efficient, and dInt (fun with Absorb-Int) has a much greater impact. Is this a step towards making drk spellcasting more useful?

Playing around with it, it looks like a Stone III/Water III would take about as long to cast as a 50%-60% hasted scythe swing (considering from the scythe perspective due to Entropy; doesn't change that scythe needs improvements to really be a valid choice vs greatsword). Would have damage in the 300-400 range with around 30-60 dInt; with something in the range of 50 MAB range from gear, 450-600 total damage (~1.5x to 2x a normal swing). The MP cost isn't that bad, at 64-75 MP, and it would return about 10 TP from Occult Acumen.

Not enough to decidedly replace normal melee, but enough that I could see it being at least marginally useful, particularly in unbuffed situations. Also, at the bottom end with T1s, could a very fast-casting spell that gives back a couple TP be useful in making an easy improvement to any x-hit build?

Would need a more experienced drk to make a better evaluation, though.

You still believe Scythe WSs are in need of buffing because they are generally out performed by almost every other 2H weapon though?

Is that a correct assumption?

hell.. +1 just for the detailed post lol