Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

On trash exp mobs maybe, and thats only if you have a slow puller that is letting just 1 mob get to camp at a time and then your waiting 10-15 seconds for the next.

When I run exp, I (or the thf) pull 10 mobs at a time and that 15% slow and regain just dont look as nice to me for killing them faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

I'll assume this was only directed at what it followed, and not the rest of my post. I agree that for that particular circumstance, I did not provide mathematical proof. The reason for this is simple. The math has already been done 50+ times and always comes out the same. The results of this math are what I stated in my reply. If you don't believe me... I'll use your retort: Go find the testing yourself because I can't be bothered to show it to you. (sounds a little... um... wishywashy, doesn't it.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

Not proof...opinion... assumptions... I'll continue, using your own words...

This "assumption" is an "assumption" of case. All it "assumes" is that the generic puppetmaster involved in my math is, in fact, wearing a standard TP set, as opposed to, say, a WS set, an evasion set, or some other type of gear set. This is an "assumption" in terminology only. The term "assume", as it is applied here, means "For this particular variable, in this particular equation, we will use the definition 'TP gear set'" and nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

More assumptions and hypotheticals; these are your words, not mine... I'll continue...

Variations are a standard occurrence with math, especially FFXI related math, due to SE's love of randomly changing where numbers round off. My "assumption" of the TP set I defined as the variable previously is, again, serving only to further define the variable in question. It is used as opposed to say, a TP set that does not reach the 25% gear-haste cap. In regards to the triple attack comment, I won't deny that that was an assumption in the definition of an educated guess based on knowledge of game mechanics. If you want me to further strengthen my point, though, I'll crunch the numbers and show you exactly how much more incorrect you can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

It's related to ws frequency...so many assumptions to "prove" your point... =/

"Assuming" 15% double attack coming from /war's +10% double attack, and Brutal Earring's +5% double attack. Assuming 15% double attack as opposed to assuming 5/10/20/32/9/13/whatever % double attack. 15% is a standard amount of double attack for a pup TP build. Thus, I made the "assumption" in line with my previous "assumption" of the gear the unnamed pup was wearing.

For the assumption that it's safe to round down to base hundreds, are you telling me that, as a pup/war in a melee scenario, you're going to be using that TP for something other than weapon skills? I mean, it's not like weapon skills require a minimum of 100 TP... oh wait, they do. My assumptions of scenario do nothing to discredit the math that you failed to respond to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

hmm... "guesstimating?"

Again, this is related to my choice to not use atma of the apocalypse, and thus give atma of the sea daughter the benefit of the doubt. This was obviously an assumption and in no way related to the proof provided by the math that you completely disregarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

There's so many assumptions in this, I don't even know where to begin... I get tired just reading it. /sigh

Those "assumptions" were generic averages based on my experiences in abyssea on pup and mnk using h2h weapons. Also, the atma assumption was based on the original topic of this thread, and was chosen as a set of meleeing atma. The final bit, the "lol, you suck" variable, is partially just a joke, but also partially refers to the low, but still possible, likelihood of various issues that arise from the fact thinks like accuracy and critical hit rate won't be capped at 100% efficiency. This means that you WILL ALWAYS MISS AT LEAST 5% of the time over the course of any significant amount of time. There is absolutely no exception to this rule, because your accuracy can never exceed 95%. Of course, that length of time is related to the final issue covered by this variable, the random number generators used in damage calculation and hit success. It is entirely possible to land 10,000 out of 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 5% miss rate, though it is also unlikely. Similarly, it is entirely possible that you will miss all 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 95% success rate, due to the random number generators just not liking you (though, the chance of this is so tiny that no one's ever had it happen, it is still a variable that needs to be accounted for somewhere).

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

Again more assumptions; you state it's rare that I WS w/ my automaton; however keep in mind SD gives a decent regain and Darkness skill-chain is reciprocal between Master and Puppet; meaning, I can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my "Valoredge" puppet's string shredder just as readily as my automaton can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my stringing Pummel... Hmm, so the Master using a multi-hit weapon (a dubious one, I might add) Ursine Claws +2 with Double Attack +10, Brutal Earring (more double attack), Twilight Belt (more double attack), (if I wear the Cirque head piece during tp, that's more double attack), Aurore Doublet (more double attack)... For "ME" its far from Rare when I and my puppet can skill chain... Sea Daughter's Slow effect is negligible for me, as I previously pointed out. I cannot speak for other people and their play-style.

You misread/misunderstood my statement. I said that is rare that you and your automaton both execute your WSs in perfect timing with perfect synchronization and that both of your TP%s are at exactly 100% at the time of your WS, meaning that there is absolutely no wasted TP whatsoever; it is rare that this happens once. It's completely impossible for it to happen multiple times in succession, due primarily to regain/tp hit not stacking to whole number amounts, and also due to random monster hits/aoe attacks hitting you and giving you extra TP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

As for your final comment, it borders on being semi-offensive; all I'll say is--it's my opinion, that no one on these forums is stupid by any degree. /cheers

Quote:

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

you imply that you are a PUP main, but other individuals who state they are pup mains (like myself, dfoley, and others), are not. That's a blatant slap in the face. You also imply that the math that has been linked to you for you to read and understand (for your own benefit) is nothing more than "random spreadsheets with fudged formulas". The numbers and data used for these "random" spreadsheets are, in fact, acquired through hours and hours of mind numbing testing in game, using pup in various scenarios and with various pieces of gear. The formulas are in no way, shape, or form, fudged. They are the same formulas discovered through said hours of mind numbing testing in game. The formulas accuracy is guaranteed, so long as the person using the formula is using accurate data, and has enough understanding of basic math to know Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (read: like, a 12 year old).

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

You imply here that those of us who disagree with you are lacking in experience. That's a blatant insult towards our experience in game and as puppetmasters. You even add a condescending smiley face. And you're not sharing your experiences. You're stating your opinions based on your own biased ideas how you wish "stuff" worked, in spite of the fact that said "stuff" -

NOTE: Stuff is used here as a catch all term. Since you're incapable of understanding context and simple english, it's meaning in this context includes, but is not limited too; the function of tactical processor, the function and benefits provided by the four types of animators, the function of haste/slow and how they relate to over all damage output, and the usage of the word "assume" as it relates to mathematics.

- does not work in the way you have convinced yourself it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiozen

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right You use it, well so can I.

Here, you openly state that you do not understand game mechanics. You also, as mentioned, use the "Freedom of Speech" guaranteed to you by the US constitution as a viable defense. However, your "freedom of speech" does not apply to these forums. You are NOT free to say anything you want with no limits in the way the constitution allows, because this forum is NOT the united states of america. This forum is a gaming forum that has its own set of rules, and is based out of a completely different country (Japan). Assuming (lol) that your constitutional right to free speech applies everywhere on the internet is both ignorant (read: ignorant does not mean stupid. Ignorance is a state of unknowing, or lack of knowledge. nothing more.) and silly. For further support of this, allow me to provide you with the definition of your (our) Freedom of Speech:

"The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law."

This applies only within the borders of the united states, or areas where the US is sovereign, such as military bases. The united states holds no sovereignty over this forum, thus you have no freedom of speech.

Now, if you were more well informed, you would have at least attempted to use the Freedom of Speech right that does have some say here, provided by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (read: not constitutional). This right is an international right, and as far as I know, Japan does follow it.

Now, just because I have nothing more constructive to do, I'm going to use YOUR tp set and I'm going to go and REDO ALL OF MY ALREADY CORRECT math. I will keep my next post in a pure mathematical form, and it will be sure to define EVERY LAST VARIABLE USING SIMPLE WORDS SO THAT THE MEANING IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND CANNOT BE MISCONSTRUED FOR THE SAKE OF SOME STUPID ARGUMENT OF SEMANTICS.

In regards to this: Xioxen, please provide me with all of the following variables that you do not want me to assume as something else:

- your Stringing Pummel WS set
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/WAR45
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/NIN45
- The attachments you use when using Valoredge
- The maneuvers you cycle when using Valoredge, as well as how frequently you cycle them (down to the second, if possible. Please do not make any guesstimation or assumption, I need the exact average number of seconds between each maneuver)
- Your valoredge's current Automaton Melee Skill, if it is not capped.
- The attachments you use when using sharpshot
- The maneuvers you cycle when using sharpshot, as well as how frequently you cycle them
- Your sharpshot's current Automaton Ranged Skill, if it is not capped.
- Your current number of Hand-to-Hand skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Critical hit rate merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Melee Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Ranged Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Optimization merits, if any
- Your current number of Fine-Tuning merits, if any
- Your current number of STR merits, if any
- Your current number of DEX merits, if any
- Your current number of VIT merits, if any
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/war
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/nin
- The gear sets, skill levels, and merits of each party member, related to melee DD, Enhancing magic, or Enfeebling magic. I am safe to assume you can infer which data I need depending on the player's job choice, correct? I don't need any melee jobs' enhancing magic information.
- The number of Abyssite of Furtherance possessed by you and any other party member who will be meleeing.
- The Jobs, WS, Job abilities, and offensive spells (damaging, enfeebling, or enhancing) used by any party member who is meleeing
- The Area in which this scenario occurs
- The type of monsters you are fighting
- The level of the monsters you are fighting
- The frequency at which you, and any other meleeing party members, are not engaged in combat, as well as the exact amount of time, over the course of 30 minutes
- The exact amount of TP at which you execute your skill chain with your puppet; both how much TP you have at the time you WS, and how much TP your puppet has when it ws's. Please either provide me with an exact list of numbers, or an average. I will not accept 100 tp for either player or puppet, because there is a 100% certainty that you will not average 100 TP, unless both you and your puppet successfully WS at exactly 100 TP every time you are able too over the course of 30 minutes, based on the delay of your chosen weapons, your attack frequency, and the amount of store TP you possess.

All of these are normally assumed to be something stated ahead of time in a given mathematical proof, and can thus be negated and ignored. However, since you don't want me to "assume" anything, I will need you to provide me with all of this data, so that I can be 100% certain that none of it matters.

^ That book needs a title ^

Sadly theytak (jinte) you will never get any information out of xiozen. I have been trying for months to get an example of the difference in animators/what tactical processor does.

The best xiozen has ever done was "try it yourself, you'll see, and if you dont, your not a career pup lol"

I am starting to question my initial opinion that he isn't a troll, just because I find it harder and harder to believe someone can be that ignorant when its not blatantly intentional.

Math isnt proof, its opinion? O really? Yet personal opinion is apparently fact because someone observed something no one could parse or replicate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dfoley

I finally figured out what this reminds me of.

A scientist arguing evolution with a devout religious person.

Scientist presents indisputable facts/equations/proof.

Religious zealot argues its not fact, just manipulated assumptions to fit a hypothesis

Scientist rips his hair out trying to explain something way too complex.

Religious zealot smiles with a troll-face because they know the scientist is right and they cant win a logical argument so they make fake logic.

Scientist makes troll face.

This is why scientists don't debate with creationists in the first place.

Oh, and I've seen it a few times in this discussion, but slow is not cumulative when the atma effects both master and pet. 15% slow is not a 30% DPS reduction just because it affects both master and pet. (It might equate to 30% after all other effects are taken into consideration, but that would be a coincidence.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristal

This is why scientists don't debate with creationists in the first place.

Oh, and I've seen it a few times in this discussion, but slow is not cumulative when the atma effects both master and pet. 15% slow is not a 30% DPS reduction just because it affects both master and pet. (It might equate to 30% after all other effects are taken into consideration, but that would be a coincidence.)

Well for 1 they do argue it. At my university, every year for the last 20 years they have invited religious people and had top biology/genetic/biochem professor to come and play devils advocate. It is quite entertaining.

And i like how people keep quoting my 30% and saying it is 30, it isnt 30, its more then 30, its less then 30. Bottom line is you and your pet are each do 15% less attacks, so its probably closer to a 25% total loss in dps since pet DD is only about 30-40% of our total. However the point was that its more then a 15% loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dfoley

Well for 1 they do argue it. At my university, every year for the last 20 years they have invited religious people and had top biology/genetic/biochem professor to come and play devils advocate. It is quite entertaining.

Oh, they make recordings of that and put them on youtube? Sounds like fun :D
I was actually thinking of 'debates' where a 'scientist' (usually some low level school teacher) gets invited to defend evolution in front of a herd of sheeple, with a smooth-talking creationist saying things that only make sense for the uneducated. (Like blatantly ignoring overwhelming evidence because it's not written in the bible.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dfoley

And i like how people keep quoting my 30% and saying it is 30, it isnt 30, its more then 30, its less then 30. Bottom line is you and your pet are each do 15% less attacks, so its probably closer to a 25% total loss in dps since pet DD is only about 30-40% of our total. However the point was that its more then a 15% loss.

The exact number isn't important, it's adding together that doesn't work.

No matter how many sources the damage is divided between, or in what distribution, if all sources deal 10% less damage, the overall damage is 10% less too.

We do record them I am not sure if they end up on youtube or just our local biochemsitry website, but I know I watched 2-3 years of videos when I was a senior (30-45 minutes long, and pretty much the same arguments every year). Typically we have a panel of 1-3 scientists, and 1-3 creationists. The creationists is typically 1-2 religous figures and 1-2 professors playing devils advocate.

I see your point about the % dps change though and you are correct with that definition. I was just trying to say, its more than just a 15% drop for the master, because the pet is includeded as well, and you are right that it is a total dps drop of 15%.

Wow did xiozen just get destroyed! I must say, I know this is 100% not on topic but, that was just .. GREAT.

Wow. This thread was derailed and then the derail was further derailed. Having used both VV/AoA/RR and SS/AoA/RR atmas on PUP on separate occasions, I didn't really notice a difference between the two. At least as far as WS damage is concerned. I believe SS has the potential to do more WS damage depending on your crit rate, as well as up your DoT with stronger critical hits. However, I like the regain on VV and since STR is a mod for Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, I'd personally stick with VV.