Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Only sad thing is that the avatar swings faster than a melee SMN.

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If you had enough knowledge about SMN to do the math, I'd ask for you to substantiate this wild guess. As it is, you are a religious zealot who doesn't care about the accuracy of his hate. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If you had enough knowledge about SMN to do the math, I'd ask for you to substantiate this wild guess. As it is, you are a religious zealot who doesn't care about the accuracy of his hate. Carry on.

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Want to go the naked route? Or geared and buff route?

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Originally Posted by Miera

Sorry but I have to admit that after you got to comparing PUP to SMN I lost interest.

These jobs are completely different from each other and any SMN who wants to melee needs to be Tarred and feathered and fed to the lions.

Want to melee? Go play MNK or something.

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I truly love people like you. Lets continue this play. If I compare PLD and NIN tanking, will you correct me and say PLD and NIN are nothing alike, so one of these CAN'T be a tank? Because that is what you just did with the PUP and SMN comparison. They differ, so they can't share the same role.

PS. Remember that you can't compare WAR and MNK either, because one uses a G Axe and the other H2H, two completely different systems. I just love this way of thinking, since you are left with balancing jobs by making comparisons like "PLD vs PLD, perfect balance!".

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I truly love people like you. Lets continue this play. If I compare PLD and NIN tanking, will you correct me and say PLD and NIN are nothing alike, so one of these CAN'T be a tank? Because that is what you just did with the PUP and SMN comparison. They differ, so they can't share the same role.

PS. Remember that you can't compare WAR and MNK either, because one uses a G Axe and the other H2H, two completely different systems. I just love this way of thinking, since you are left with balancing jobs by making comparisons like "PLD vs PLD, perfect balance!".

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Mala PLD and NIN are both front liner's and they both can tank, the only differnce is in how they tank PLD is a meat shield, NIN is an evasion tank. You're still trying to compare a backline pet mage job to a frontline pet melee job, SMN and PUP respectively. These two jobs were designed to function entirely different from the ground up, the only similarity is they both use pets. That's not what they did and I think you know it, they may have been more than a bit rude in how they said it, but PUP and SMN are two completely different job types.

MNK and WAR again were designed as frontline jobs so you can compare them. They both excel as frontline DDs and can even tank, because that's how they were designed different jobs that fill the same role. IOf we were comparing two pet jobs like this it would be BST and PUP never Smn and PUP. When you melee on PUP you are fulfilling a main part of how that job was intended to function, when you do it on SMN you are nothing more than a mage meleeing. That's not to say you can't melee if you want, any job can be geared to melee. Although that doesn't mean they were designed to melee.

Honestly reading over this thread i can safely say the arrogance displayed by you and Korpg have actually started to make me believe more in Dallas, despite his inability to prove anything.

Its nothing more than a childish fight between the arrogant and the more so.

To be frank, Summoner melee does have a place. Its not as lavish as Dallas claims but its not as pointless as you and Korpg seem to claim.

There are some situations, some, where a Summoner would likely be better off swinging his staff than picking his nose like SE's lame "vision" for it is.

Hint, their visions suck, Their THF vision is us putting our daggers up our ass and throwing enmity around like a monkey flinging poo. They know almost nothing about how their players play the jobs, if thye did, They wouldn't continue to try and force-feed Enmity control and Loot-whoring down THF's throat, when its clear the community does not want it.

Point is, using their words on SMN as a defense for your argument is as illogical as claiming you discovered an Atma long after is was discovered. You're arguments are no more valid than his.

SMN melee is obviously not very effective above most trash mobs, Inside Abyssea they can compliment their strengths by stacking DD atma, and not fall hard because of BP like PC. Outside its obviously a different story.

Yes, He may be arguing "Its good on everything" which is wrong, But by saying "ITS GOOD ON NUFFIN" you're equally as wrong.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Honestly reading over this thread i can safely say the arrogance displayed by you and Korpg have actually started to make me believe more in Dallas, despite his inability to prove anything.

Its nothing more than a childish fight between the arrogant and the more so.

To be frank, Summoner melee does have a place. Its not as lavish as Dallas claims but its not as pointless as you and Korpg seem to claim.

There are some situations, some, where a Summoner would likely be better off swinging his staff than picking his nose like SE's lame "vision" for it is.

Hint, their visions suck, Their THF vision is us putting our daggers up our ass and throwing enmity around like a monkey flinging poo. They know almost nothing about how their players play the jobs, if thye did, They wouldn't continue to try and force-feed Enmity control and Loot-whoring down THF's throat, when its clear the community does not want it.

Point is, using their words on SMN as a defense for your argument is as illogical as claiming you discovered an Atma long after is was discovered. You're arguments are no more valid than his.

SMN melee is obviously not very effective above most trash mobs, Inside Abyssea they can compliment their strengths by stacking DD atma, and not fall hard because of BP like PC. Outside its obviously a different story.

Yes, He may be arguing "Its good on everything" which is wrong, But by saying "ITS GOOD ON NUFFIN" you're equally as wrong.

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I've said several times that SMN can be geared to melee and it's ok to do it on some things. I've been arguing against two things this whole time, neither of which is that melee on a mage should never be used.

1) that melee SMN is some how completely useful o0n everything and is the only way to play, and is somehow so efficent that it completely changes how the job should be played. Is somehow magically the only way s SMN can keep up their MP.

2) That SMN was designed as a frontline job comparable to DRK.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Honestly reading over this thread i can safely say the arrogance displayed by you and Korpg have actually started to make me believe more in Dallas, despite his inability to prove anything.

Its nothing more than a childish fight between the arrogant and the more so.

To be frank, Summoner melee does have a place. Its not as lavish as Dallas claims but its not as pointless as you and Korpg seem to claim.

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I guess I got caught up in Dallas's BS that I forgot to mention what you mentioned.

I melee on SMN only if the situation requires it to (soloing and for blue procs only). Stating that I have to do something that the job is not designed to do, otherwise I'm a waste of space is something I will not tolerate.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I guess I got caught up in Dallas's BS that I forgot to mention what you mentioned.

I melee on SMN only if the situation requires it to (soloing and for blue procs only). Stating that I have to do something that the job is not designed to do, otherwise I'm a waste of space is something I will not tolerate.

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Well i acknowledge you realize a place, However its not as black/white as you claim it to be. Summoner is massively inefficient inside abysse, low Damage compared to other jobs/etc, If we're talking about a Perfect Utopia ya, It really doesn't fit into the picture. However not everyone follows a perfect Utopian example of MNK+WHM Onry and Genocide the non-believer jobs.

If a Summoner is invited to DD, for whatever reasons the leader may hold, Its better off fulfilling its roles and meleeing in that time, So long as the mob has no crippling TP moves. TP feed is less important in Abyssea but its still important on some mobs to keep splash damage down. Obviously this would be a bad situation for SMN to melee.

I acknowledge the rest below >_>

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1) that melee SMN is some how completely useful o0n everything and is the only way to play, and is somehow so efficent that it completely changes how the job should be played. Is somehow magically the only way s SMN can keep up their MP.

2) That SMN was designed as a frontline job comparable to DRK.

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Two points i agree with. Summoner was not designed as a Frontline job (in my eyes), and i dont think Meleeing unlocks some huge potential.

Truthfully, I think SE had intended in the beginning that All jobs would likely melee at some point, Even mages. They intended to have down time for Mages to recover MP/etc... Its also why they gave WS like Moonlight, and Energy Drain, and Spirit Taker... all designed to recover MP through Melee.

However its the players that advocated against it, for good reason, its mostly trash.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well i acknowledge you realize a place, However its not as black/white as you claim it to be. Summoner is massively inefficient inside abysse, low Damage compared to other jobs/etc, If we're talking about a Perfect Utopia ya, It really doesn't fit into the picture. However not everyone follows a perfect Utopian example of MNK+WHM Onry and Genocide the non-believer jobs.

If a Summoner is invited to DD, for whatever reasons the leader may hold, Its better off fulfilling its roles and meleeing in that time, So long as the mob has no crippling TP moves. TP feed is less important in Abyssea but its still important on some mobs to keep splash damage down. Obviously this would be a bad situation for SMN to melee.

I acknowledge the rest below >_>



Two points i agree with. Summoner was not designed as a Frontline job (in my eyes), and i dont think Meleeing unlocks some huge potential.

Truthfully, I think SE had intended in the beginning that All jobs would likely melee at some point, Even mages. They intended to have down time for Mages to recover MP/etc... Its also why they gave WS like Moonlight, and Energy Drain, and Spirit Taker... all designed to recover MP through Melee.

However its the players that advocated against it, for good reason, its mostly trash.

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Abyssea is a playground pure and simple, it's kind of like Vegas. In the way that anything goes if all participants are ok with it and for the most part what happens in Abyssea stays in Abyssea i.e certain jobs meleeing.

I'd say they wanted it to be an option for whatever reason, we'll never know. As you say on most things it's trash, it'll always come back to the point if you're gonna have someone hitting the mob make it something thats specialized /good at hitting things.

For the record Moonlight is rubbish I died a little inside first time I used it.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Want to go the naked route? Or geared and buff route?

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Competent melee only, thanks. That means knowing and acknowledging that the SMN gets access to gear where the pet does not. Of course a 2h weapon base speed is slower than a 1h avatar.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Abyssea is a playground pure and simple, it's kind of like Vegas. In the way that anything goes if all participants are ok with it and for the most part what happens in Abyssea stays in Abyssea i.e certain jobs meleeing.

I'd say they wanted it to be an option for whatever reason, we'll never know. As you say on most things it's trash, it'll always come back to the point if you're gonna have someone hitting the mob make it something thats specialized /good at hitting things.

For the record Moonlight is rubbish I died a little inside first time I used it.

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Yah, Moonlight was disgustingly terrible, but it was designed for an age of FFXI where it was probably almost useful..

To the bolded, Its funny to me because I use this argument all the time on THF forums :D!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Yah, Moonlight was disgustingly terrible, but it was designed for an age of FFXI where it was probably almost useful..

To the bolded, Its funny to me because I use this argument all the time on THF forums :D!

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Those poor THFs. At least melee is something mages can do on the side and not part of their main focus. Although they get TH which is usually enough to get them invited if the party leader doesn't rate THF.

I almost called a GM because I was sure moonlight was bugged, until I checked the wiki.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Competent melee only, thanks. That means knowing and acknowledging that the SMN gets access to gear where the pet does not. Of course a 2h weapon base speed is slower than a 1h avatar.

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So, basically anything in this game where having a WAR instead of a SMN would get the job done. Got it.

When forced to do math regarding SMN, you switch back to WAR. Bandwagoner all the way.

Talk to me when you solo something, ok?

What has that 4-man WAR team soloed? Oh snap! That's right, you need me to teach you more SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

What has that 4-man WAR team soloed? Oh snap! That's right, you need me to teach you more SMN.

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Dallas contrary to your belief a WAR doesn't need 4 man support to be a DD. Those numbers were with BOTH SMN and WAR recieving the same buffs, which is something you keep trying to ignore. If a SMN can solo something melee, I'm pretty sure a WAR could do it too.

Malamasala, IMO you don't know how to play SMN. Just reading your original post makes this REALLY clear to me. Moon phase, day, these really don't matter.

What you can do with SMN, and do quite well I might add, is do the JOB with NO GEAR what so ever. It's an inexpensive job to play. Don't have to purchase any spells. Or avatars. You just level up. That's it.

Now make this thread GO AWAY.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Malamasala, IMO you don't know how to play SMN. Just reading your original post makes this REALLY clear to me. Moon phase, day, these really don't matter.

What you can do with SMN, and do quite well I might add, is do the JOB with NO GEAR what so ever. It's an inexpensive job to play. Don't have to purchase any spells. Or avatars. You just level up. That's it.

Now make this thread GO AWAY.

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It would honestly be far away, if Dallas, Korpg and Raz weren't discussing melee SMN.

But I'd recommend you to look into the job, since you sound like a person who'd get very far in vanadiel as a naked SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

What has that 4-man WAR team soloed? Oh snap! That's right, you need me to teach you more SMN.

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How come you won't answer my question? Is it because you really don't have SMN leveled, and by extension, that staff you swear by?

Besides, to get to that 1/4th of a WAR type numbers, you need the same 4 man team as a WAR would. Oh snap!

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Malamasala, IMO you don't know how to play SMN. Just reading your original post makes this REALLY clear to me. Moon phase, day, these really don't matter.

What you can do with SMN, and do quite well I might add, is do the JOB with NO GEAR what so ever. It's an inexpensive job to play. Don't have to purchase any spells. Or avatars. You just level up. That's it.

Now make this thread GO AWAY.

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so why don't you make us a nice guide right here on the smn forum where folks who feel they can play smn well share with the rest of us? I see statements saying folks can't play smn a lot on these forums a lot. However, I would like to see you guys share the wealth. Let the rest of us know "how to play smn" from your point of view.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

How come you won't answer my question? Is it because you really don't have SMN leveled, and by extension, that staff you swear by?

Besides, to get to that 1/4th of a WAR type numbers, you need the same 4 man team as a WAR would. Oh snap!

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he doesn't answer any question he can't answer, pretty much.
which is why most of anything i ever say in retort to his points don't ever see any following up by him, instead sidestepping into some good ol fashion ad hominem and red herrings about how I don't have something that you do - none of which actually changes the point of the arguments.

I'd advise for you to stop feeding the troll, or at least, serve it something it doesn't like. Everyone can see who is right and wrong.

I only respond to Dallas just so he can say something that contradicts himself, which he does quite often.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It would honestly be far away, if Dallas, Korpg and Raz weren't discussing melee SMN.

But I'd recommend you to look into the job, since you sound like a person who'd get very far in vanadiel as a naked SMN.

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I remember going to Ifrit's Cauldron @ level 50 or so. You'd send carby after a Volcanic Gas mob in an attempt to get it to self-destruct. Wasn't easy but SMN was at the time the only job that could do this.

Here's a video of me in early '07 helping some Japanese players with the Ouryu fight. Long time ago. A lot has changed. A lot hasn't.

Any videos of you showing your stuff? Hmm?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Dallas contrary to your belief a WAR doesn't need 4 man support to be a DD. Those numbers were with BOTH SMN and WAR recieving the same buffs, which is something you keep trying to ignore. If a SMN can solo something melee, I'm pretty sure a WAR could do it too.

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WAR/DNC might be able to, but the GG-fail-math saying WAR are "super pimp gods" depends on /SAM. WAR/SAM isn't soloing anything. Go beg GG to adjust his solo numbers, because you aren't going to manage it.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by Dallas

WAR/DNC might be able to, but the GG-fail-math saying WAR are "super pimp gods" depends on /SAM. WAR/SAM isn't soloing anything. Go beg GG to adjust his solo numbers, because you aren't going to manage it.

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You aren't soloing anything either. Go back to playing with your blocks like a good kid.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

I remember going to Ifrit's Cauldron @ level 50 or so. You'd send carby after a Volcanic Gas mob in an attempt to get it to self-destruct. Wasn't easy but SMN was at the time the only job that could do this.

Here's a video of me in early '07 helping some Japanese players with the Ouryu fight. Long time ago. A lot has changed. A lot hasn't.

Any videos of you showing your stuff? Hmm?

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No I don't make videos. I hardly even take screenshots.

Watching the replay though, I'm unimpressed at you using Ice on a Earth elemental dragon. By using Garuda you would have taken less damage from his attacks and had your avatar tank longer, possibly also dealt more damage.

When I did that battle, I had people on jobs they had only leveled, never played, as tank and healer, so they went down so fast that I pretty much did this fight with 4 people. My Garuda tanked most of it. Not a "SMN is best" moment though, since the BLMs there with me sure pulled their weight.