Reasons Why FFXI is Declining

The most charitable reading of your argument is that FFXI was always shitty, but we (meaning you) didn't realize it because the leveling game kept you from having to discard your fantasies about how good the max level game must be.

I don't see how anyone can do a better job to make the game than it is if you have the limitations of a game engine made more than 11 years ago.

That's why Atari, Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Psp, Play station 1 & 2, and all other old consoles were discontinued.

Well, for one thing, you could eliminate (or at least provide an end-run around) the often frustrating and alienating XP grind that limits people from experiencing the content already in place.

oh wait

More seriously, the power jump caused by SoA gear, particularly out of Delve, that's rendered the entire past game moot and put all focus on half-implemented Adoulin represents a specific, purely editorial design decision that has nothing to do with hardware.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Well, for one thing, you could eliminate (or at least provide an end-run around) the often frustrating and alienating XP grind that limits people from experiencing the content already in place.

oh wait

More seriously, the power jump caused by SoA gear, particularly out of Delve, that's rendered the entire past game moot and put all focus on half-implemented Adoulin represents a specific, purely editorial design decision that has nothing to do with hardware.

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This.

It has nothing to do with hardware / software limitations. It has everything to do with the mode / pace of progression they chose to implement. Which by the way, was more work than implementing a slower more reasonably thought out mode of progression (ie. merit points and / or much smaller leaps in gear stats vs. adding a stupid iLevel stat).

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Originally Posted by scaevola

None of this, however, has ANYTHING to do with leveling, by which I mean the process by which players gain experience points through the most efficient means available. We all think the game is way too thin right now but that's absolutely a result of SoA, not the MMO vestigial organ of XP.

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You are looking at a moment where the majority of the playerbase has already surpassed the leveling phase of the game. Unless SE rollsback all characters and start everyone again at ground Zero then at this point of the game in order to bring those who are starting a new account up to par where the majority is at things like FC to 99 in less than half a day exist.

Lack of people to make exp parties happen. The only way to keep people who are at the inevitable question interested is to keep pumping out repeatables, limited time base events to keep you staring at the middle of the computer screen and play.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

You are looking at a moment where the majority of the playerbase has already surpassed the leveling phase of the game. Unless SE rollsback all characters and start everyone again at ground Zero then at this point of the game in order to bring those who are starting a new account up to par where the majority is at things like FC to 99 in less than half a day exist.

Lack of oeople to make exp parties happen. The only way to keep people who are at the inevitable question interested is to keep pumping out repeatables, limited time base events to keep you staring at the middle of the computer screen and play.

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If FFXI had introduced quick-ish leveling at the start, maybe not Abyssea quick, but let's say your first max-level character in....2 months or so for most players interested in logging in for maybe a dozen hours a week, one of two things would have happened:

1. FFXI would have had a MUCH richer and well-developed endgame for most of its history. Late ToAU-level by the time RoZ came out.

OR

2. The game would have flamed out Warhammer-style almost immediately.


Either way, it's an open question as to whether everyone involved not named sage sundi would not have been better off. The fact that this huge toad sitting athwart our clear view of the meat of the game was abruptly swept aside in 2010 shows HUGE confidence on the part of SE regarding what they had in mind, and I think it's a tremendous credit to Abyssea and what followed that so many people who never would have kept playing at 75 if they'd actually gotten there and saw what was waiting for them* ponied up and happily kept playing at the new caps; the content, for the first time, was crunchy, accessible, engaging, surprising, and fun! Cue SoA!



*smart, well-written endgame posters who had completed everything short of AV/PW used to have fights, honest to God fights, about the most efficient ways/setups to kill Greater Colibri. I mean, take a step back and think about that.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

If FFXI had introduced quick-ish leveling at the start, maybe not Abyssea quick, but let's say your first max-level character in....2 months or so for most players interested in logging in for maybe a dozen hours a week, one of two things would have happened:

1. FFXI would have had a MUCH richer and well-developed endgame for most of its history. Late ToAU-level by the time RoZ came out.

OR

2. The game would have flamed out Warhammer-style almost immediately.


Either way, it's an open question as to whether everyone involved not named sage sundi would not have been better off.

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Only if the DEV team had enough time to produce rich content. Game programming is a race between players and the team creating the content. We are playing a game of cat and mouse nonstop because this is a never ending MMORPG.

These repeatables, time limited events, horrible drop rates and tough progression standards set within the game in reality are excuses to stall you.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Only if the DEV team had enough time to produce rich content. Game programming is a race between players and the team creating the content. We are playing a game of cat and mouse nonstop because this is a never ending MMORPG.

These repeatables, time limited events, horrible drop rates and tough progression standards set within the game in reality are excuses to stall you.

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This game has been tremendously materially rewarding since Magians was put in. Pulse stuff was hard to get, but that's because it was the jackpot on a slot machine that was free to play and paid out every single pull.

We loved it in 2010-2012, but are leaving in droves through SoA. Effort-reward is not the issue.

(ps if FFXI were set to cataclysmically tank in 2003, it would have received the same redoubling of effort XIV got)

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Originally Posted by scaevola

This game has been tremendously materially rewarding since Magians was put in. Pulse stuff was hard to get, but that's because it was the jackpot on a slot machine that was free to play and paid out every single pull.

We loved it in 2010-2012, but are leaving in droves through SoA. Effort-reward is not the issue.

(ps if FFXI were set to cataclysmically tank in 2003, it would have received the same redoubling of effort XIV got)

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This is the problem with an 11 year game. What level range was the content back in 2010-2012?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Well, for one thing, you could eliminate (or at least provide an end-run around) the often frustrating and alienating XP grind that limits people from experiencing the content already in place.

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Not only did they eliminate it, they managed to eliminate most of the reasons the zones said levels existed for in the process. And the reasons people even hung around in the starting cities.

I mean, I regularly have to explain to newbie people capped at level 50 why fame matters or how to get to anywhere save Gusgen Mines and Crawler's Nest. The incentives to explore, to actually be in the game world were obliterated with Abyssea. Because little blue boxes and a L30 entry limit.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Not only did they eliminate it, they managed to eliminate most of the reasons the zones said levels existed for in the process. And the reasons people even hung around in the starting cities.

I mean, I regularly have to explain to newbie people capped at level 50 why fame matters or how to get to anywhere save Gusgen Mines and Crawler's Nest. The incentives to explore, to actually be in the game world were obliterated with Abyssea. Because little blue boxes and a L30 entry limit.

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And the way I see why these areas were eliminated was because people complained they weren't getting invites to 6 man parties and failing to exp was killing the game so in order to keep leveling interested was to expand the limit to 18 man alliances which would make certain areas popular and full bringing the majority of the player base to certain areas.

Just the same as I mentioned before the rope has 2 sides, if the adjustment is made for a good cause a sacrifice is always made.

Speeding the leveling phase to less than half a day made most auction house gear irrelevant.

Allowing 18 man alliances and GOV pages sacrificed leveling at old maps and 6 man Skillchain groups.

Adjustments are made based on a general view of what can benefit the majority.

Most events today is based on keeping big groups and the majority of the playerbase together than fall apart.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Only if the DEV team had enough time to produce rich content. Game programming is a race between players and the team creating the content. We are playing a game of cat and mouse nonstop because this is a never ending MMORPG.

These repeatables, time limited events, horrible drop rates and tough progression standards set within the game in reality are excuses to stall you.

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Right, but here is the thing: If you make leveling take forever, people will only level a few key jobs in order to ensure a place in end game, then they will stop leveling and concentrate on endgame. This creates a situation where in new people only have other new people to level with because older players have effectively quit leveling. That's where the game was at before abyssea was released.

The problem with creating end game content in this situation is that you can't create end game events that require job diversity because most people only have a few jobs leveled and most of them are the same jobs. They aren't willing to spend months years leveling for one event. Even if they are, you are looking at months / years lag time before your end game event picks up in popularity (if ever).

As they add more new jobs, this problem becomes worse and worse because they have to give those jobs a reason to exist beyond just the leveling phase and creating mid level content is problematic because the usefulness of the rewards is short lived and level capped players don't like playing at lower levels.

They solve this by making it incredibly easy to level jobs by having higher level players help you. This way, lower level people aren't stuck sitting with their flags up all day doing nothing and the devs can build content around any jobs they want because everyone can reasonably access those jobs.

They could have easily brought back the six man party system by adding a point system that revolves around killing things outside of abyssea and is most efficiently done in groups of 4-6 by making it scale like exp. does. They could have tied it to merits as a form of progression. They could have done this with reives by simply making the bayld received scale based on party size.

There are a million things they could have done better than what they did to keep people playing and none of it had to involve going back in time and removing fell cleave parties or building a new game engine.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Right, but here is the thing: If you make leveling take forever, people will only level a few key jobs in order to ensure a place in end game, then they will stop leveling and concentrate on endgame. This creates a situation where in new people only have other new people to level with because older players have effectively quit leveling. That's where the game was at before abyssea was released.

The problem with creating end game content in this situation is that you can't create end game events that require job diversity because most people only have a few jobs leveled and most of them are the same jobs. They aren't willing to spend months years leveling for one event. Even if they are, you are looking at months / years lag time before your end game event picks up in popularity (if ever).

As they add more new jobs, this problem becomes worse and worse because they have to give those jobs a reason to exist beyond just the leveling phase and creating mid level content is problematic because the usefulness of the rewards is short lived and level capped players don't like playing at lower levels.

They solve this by making it incredibly easy to level jobs by having higher level players help you. This way, lower level people aren't stuck sitting with their flags up all day doing nothing and the devs can build content around any jobs they want because everyone can reasonably access those jobs.

They could have easily brought back the six man party system by adding a point system that revolves around killing things outside of abyssea and is most efficiently done in groups of 4-6 by making it scale like exp. does. They could have tied it to merits as a form of progression. They could have done this with reives by simply making the bayld received scale based on party size.

There are a million things they could have done better than what they did to keep people playing and none of it had to involve going back in time and removing fell cleave parties or building a new game engine.

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Its hard to expect a small team to focus on every aspect of the game at all times. Everything the DEVs do is based on the moment and where the majority is at.

The system made at the start wasn't broken. It's until after people passed it is when the system became different.

If players went back and helped everyone progress then its good but at the current state people have too many priorities setting themselves first before others.

Then again how do you go back and alter the game based on the momentary interest without changing the storyline?

Adding new jobs is what ties into the story of each content. Look at other jobs and how they all relate to the storyline.

Do you want to suffer finding people to level with and do no events or spend all day finding parties to get your gear?

Its risky at this point because what if there is not enough players sharing the same interest? Will it be possible to make groups happen?

Leveling phase was fun I admit but the main thing I learned in game development is the difference in level range.

The more levels you get, the more power you gain, which require harder content upon harder content but at a certain point you will start to struggle keeping people busy long enough to work on development and that's why these typical repeat me a million times, wait 1 day to gain access and play for 2 hours, horrible drop rates exist.

I know we argued a lot in WR thread but look at the conditions. Allowing anyone to join instead of limiting the event to 18 people seems like it was meant to keep the majority of the community together than everyone lose interest in SoA.

SoA was failing upon release. 1 mistake can ripple through the entire game like an aftershock from hell.

Which is what Delve and Skirmish did. Instead of spending time moving forward, time gets spent correcting issues.

I also said it maybe too quick to judge the content of SoA bad if the full vision of the expansion has not been realized.

We are only looking at segments upon segments being implemented right now.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

They could have easily brought back the six man party system by adding a point system that revolves around killing things outside of abyssea

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Frank as I said before, the interest is focused on the majority of the playerbase. Certain things are implemented for a reason. If only 2,000 players existed on the entire server and 200 of the players are duel box, bazaar, mules and most of the day ranging from 500-800 people, do you think directing people's attention away from popular areas is going to help if the goal is to keep everyone interested in the current event?

How does that help you find parties to do things like Abyssea, quests, missions, trials, events if there are too many things added on to your to-do interest list?

How would people get things in Abyssea done if several hundred players decide they want to level outside of it?

That's why I said it doesn't make sense to implement REM and draw everyone to do that after SoA expansion was released. Then how will people find enough people interested in Delve etc?

This is the thing about analyzing results over time and making adjustments according to the moment.

Which is why I said Game development is about shifting the crowd from one area to another.

Now to conclude everything I've been explaining in my responses:

I just think the DEV TEAM intentionally decided to kill off all other content to shift the crowd over to SoA fully by adding in over powered items and gear to make the new expansion a success than lose face by charging almost $40 to every single person who bought it which would make the crash of this game worse than when FFXIV was released.

Atleast now they can continue to add more on top of it and fill in the gaps along the way.

People were bound to quit anyway, atleast their strategy kept the crowd that's left over. And that's why you have as many people as you do now.

Magic is about drawing attention to a specific thing with the intent of distracting you to accomplish the success of the trick you are doing.

Its obvious the items of the game would draw everyone's interest like a magician wowing you with the glamor of the illusion being performed.

And this is why I see the game different than you.

If you guys weren't so busy focused on a single task arms flailing in the air sky is falling run to the forums and let everyone know the world is ending thinking only about simple things like "How do I get my item" then maybe you would see things beyond the box rather than be left stuck in it.

My last 2 cents I leave for you on the table.

Great news! XIV sucks i'm comming back here and i'll forget about all the flaws this game has cause its still 9999999999 times better then that monster which is XIV.

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Originally Posted by vienne

Great news! XIV sucks i'm comming back here and i'll forget about all the flaws this game has cause its still 9999999999 times better then that monster which is XIV.

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Lol I'm waiting to see how many others are coming back when that free one month ends and when others realize that FFXIV is not FFXI leaving behind a game they already spent so much time building their characters earning their items which is enough reason not to drop the game entirely.

Which is also a good reason to "analyze" things over time before making adjustments right away.

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Originally Posted by vienne

Great news! XIV sucks i'm comming back here and i'll forget about all the flaws this game has cause its still 9999999999 times better then that monster which is XIV.

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Just wondering why u feel that way and what u don't like about it? I've heard that from a few ppl but imo I am having fun playing xiv. Its fast, there's a ton of things going on, lots of people, and it is beautiful. I like the controls and the game play customization. My only complaint right now is that it seems way too easy, not just leveling but everything I experienced so far hasn't proven to be a challenge. But yet im only lvl 14

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Originally Posted by Kuvo

My only complaint right now is that it seems way too easy

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This is why i lost interest.

I understand making the game easy to understand. Making it too easy as if the game is doing everything for you is a different story.

Part of playing any RPG game is about exploring. This game shows you where NPCs are telling you where to go just by looking at the map and in 1 hour you can finish talking to several quest npcs and complete things with the impression of "go talk to this NPC, go pick up this off the ground in front of me, walk over there and examine this, go dance in front of these people"

I just think they went overboard on the easy mode.

In a way it just felt as if it was done intentionally to avoid the problem that happened on the first release. Lose customers who don't know how to do simple things on their own.

Sort of like someone nagging you that the Internet doesn't work when they didn't even type in the web address. So they expect you to do it for them.

That's how easy the game seems.

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Originally Posted by Kuvo

My only complaint right now is that it seems way too easy

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That^ i lvld MRD to 34 LNC to 22 and a couple of things more, i tried crafting (and in 1.0 i did quite alot of botany which i really liked doing but they dumbed it down in ARR) and its just... where's the challenge. I want a game where i can play for longer then 3 months. The fate thing is a copy of GW2 and badly implemented. crafting is pointless since almost every quest hands you a piece of gear, gathering is pointless since that marketboard is just hilarious. i said it on the the xiv forum and i'll say it here too, they're trying way to hard to make xiv not be like xi so they also didnt implement anything which was actually good about xi.
in short, its a shiny game with little content.
Its like a really nice looking bra, but the moment you put it on you notice it doesnt fit well and is made of only 5 parts instead of the must have 50 parts

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Originally Posted by vienne

That^ i lvld MRD to 34 LNC to 22 and a couple of things more, i tried crafting (and in 1.0 i did quite alot of botany which i really liked doing but they dumbed it down in ARR) and its just... where's the challenge. I want a game where i can play for longer then 3 months. The fate thing is a copy of GW2 and badly implemented. crafting is pointless since almost every quest hands you a piece of gear, gathering is pointless since that marketboard is just hilarious. i said it on the the xiv forum and i'll say it here too, they're trying way to hard to make xiv not be like xi so they also didnt implement anything which was actually good about xi.
in short, its a shiny game with little content.
Its like a really nice looking bra, but the moment you put it on you notice it doesnt fit well and is made of only 5 parts instead of the must have 50 parts

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SE's broke, they can't no longer afford to make another mega sized MMO and take risk of failing again. So they have to focus on 1 single aspect, make it small, make ppl satisfied, so that buy them time and money, at least they got some box sells.

I agree with what you said though, I want more than just "go to dungeon and fight the boss, beat it, so I can do next dungeon" MMORPG. But I guess no company is ambitious enough to make anything more than that.

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Originally Posted by Kuvo

Just wondering why u feel that way and what u don't like about it? I've heard that from a few ppl but imo I am having fun playing xiv. Its fast, there's a ton of things going on, lots of people, and it is beautiful. I like the controls and the game play customization. My only complaint right now is that it seems way too easy, not just leveling but everything I experienced so far hasn't proven to be a challenge. But yet im only lvl 14

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It really depend on what you're looking for in an MMORPG.

XIV is linear, very straight forward, and the game scope is small. It often give you tons of things, quests/fate/dungeon to do, and dungeon mechanics are fun for the first time.

The issue is not every players are looking for this kind of linear experience. I think being "immersive" is one very important aspect in MMO. MMO is supposed to be a 2nd world for players to live in, with strong social aspect and sense of living in the world, not just a game where you quickly beat 1 thing to do another.

XIV has very small but pretty map, at first it's new and fresh to look at every pretty locations. Until you keep playing and realized every map in the game doens't feel real....desert is small and full of stuff, but in reality desert should be something like XI, where you walk forever to one place to another, seeing nothing but sand ._. Snowy field is the same. It's supposed to be something like XI, long walk, no camp, no city, where you get lost and actually feel cold. XIV is not like that, you get a snowy field where each town is 2 min of bird ride between each other, and 1000 players killing FATE pop in the middle of the road. In the name of "accessibility and fun", you can head to 1 location to another in a 2m ride and the sense of adventure is completely gone.

Same for character customization, in MMO you're supposed to play however you want, live however you want. In XIV the entire game been telling me where to go next, what to do next, what my job role is. And I can't do things I want to do, until I cleared previous content.

Plenty of players said XIV is fun, because it really tried really hard to give you tones of things to do in very short amount of time. Exciting dungeon bosses one after another. Fate is fast, quests only need a few bird ride/teleport and you can finish many of them in 5 min. But for some reason, I feel I'm disconnected to the game, there are no immersion, just instant gratification. All there's left in XIV, is "What's the boss mechanic of next dungeon?" or "I need to get an Ifrit weapon so I can do Garuda, next exciting boss yeahhhh!".

The more I play XIV, the more I miss old XI. I wish dev can bring old XI back ._. Ppl need to stop bashing designs that doesn't bring instant gratification, because instant gratification isn't necessary zomg awesome, especially for games like XI, which already has another instant gratification competitior.

Afania, you wonderfully worded how i feel about xiv < > xi

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Originally Posted by vienne

Afania, you wonderfully worded how i feel about xiv < > xi

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I agree, afania has a lot of great points and it made me see them in the game too. I honestly wanted xiv to be an extension of xi but I need to look at xiv as a completely different game. I will continue to play both and see how xiv develops but all your points are very valid.

Instant gratification games, designs, objectives only serve the purpose to stimulate the serotonin levels of a player. Sort of the same as a drug addict getting a temporary high only to waste their time altering their mind only on the high itself and forget about the harm it's doing them and how they are ruining their life around people who care.

Although that example is several times more hardcore than a game. It's still the same concept just slower and more subtle that people can't see right away.

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Originally Posted by Kuvo

I agree, afania has a lot of great points and it made me see them in the game too. I honestly wanted xiv to be an extension of xi but I need to look at xiv as a completely different game. I will continue to play both and see how xiv develops but all your points are very valid.

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Perhaps my biggest gripe with XIV is disconnect feel when it comes to character development, since it's vertical gear progression like SoA XI. In pre-SoA XI your character gets stronger by doing tons of content and collect gears and build tons of gear sets. The longer you play, the more gears you can use for different situations. When I played pre-SoA XI, every new gear set I made, there's a sense of satisfication because I really feel my character/job gets stronger, as every new piece of gear are part of my strength to deal with difficult situations, most of them are not replaced, nor replaced easily, they're part of my arsenal that made my character/job strong. That's the real reason why I'm willing to play XI for years and grind gears doing same content for years, because my character feels more than just another avatar in a virtual world, it's a character with a story, and gets stronger as life goes on.

In XIV, at least current XIV, I feel I'm just collecting X gear or Y gear to bypass the gear check so I can do next content after next. Once you pass gear check it's time to toss the gear for better gears. Grind primal weapons for titan HM because there's DPS check on titan, and need titan clear to continue relic quest, once you pass that stage previous primal weapons are just nothing but a stepping stone. Grind Darklight because there's HP check for X content, once you get AF2 time to replace them.

In pre-SoA XI, I feel like I do content and grind gears because I love my character/job, and I do them to make my character/job stronger. There's a feel for character progression. I value immersion when I play RPG, and pre-SoA XI really delivered it when it comes to character development.

I XIV, I feel like I do content because I need X gear to do this content, so I can do next content. And why do I need to do next content? Well, because it's pretty much everyone's doing and only thing you can do after you hit lv cap. It's more like linear content progression than character progression.


At first I was expecting XIV to be an extension of XI too, until I realized they're completely different game with different design philosophy. It's probably easier to enjoy XIV by just accepting what it is. Although I still wish XI can go back to pre-SoA direction, that's the time I enjoyed XI the most, and IMO, better game direction for XI.

I haven't done much of anything with the new expansion except for unlocking the 2 new jobs but ill tell u that I think I will now. All that new gear and weaponsre so amazing. I love playing the old content still and that gear and weapons would be perfect for the type of gameplay im looking to do..... also me and 2 other friends have been leveling a bit old fashion. We have been doing FoV in all different areas matching our levels. Like the other day we partied in the jungle killing mandies outside kazham. I bit slow in leveling but capped all our skills and its been fun doing so. Started to bring back the low level adventure again.

i played now FFXIV for 3 weeks aaaaand while the game is fun, i cant fathom the community there. so unless my friends of FFXI gather on one server to play in 14, i will pass on that one ¬.¬

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Originally Posted by Damane

i played now FFXIV for 3 weeks aaaaand while the game is fun, i cant fathom the community there. so unless my friends of FFXI gather on one server to play in 14, i will pass on that one ¬.¬

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Ya, to your point I was doing some random quest and saw 2 other people starting the same quest. So I asked them if they want to join together and do the quest. They said why bother because you can solo 99% of these quest lines. So I get your point about the community. I just wanted to try and meet new ppl but it makes for a good point. On ffxiv there is no reason (thus far) to develop in game friendships based on content.
Xi started to fall apart in a similar fashion. Anything before aby, no one wants to be apart of so no one wants to help or adventure together anymore. Luckily I have 2 close friends that still play xi otherwise I would be gone.

There has been a 50% drop in NA player logins within the last six months. Several factors are likely to be at play:
* Aging-game syndrome
* Developmental decisions (including the horizontal-to-vertical progression switch)
* The presence of competing games (like FFXIV)

I think that it is not wise to underestimate either of the last two factors, though the first factor cannot be ruled out totally. Based on some data from a mysterious source, I would be unsurprised if the majority of the effect was due to Dev decisions and if FFXIV was a minor effect.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

There has been a 50% drop in NA player logins within the last six months. Several factors are likely to be at play:
* Aging-game syndrome
* Developmental decisions (including the horizontal-to-vertical progression switch)
* The presence of competing games (like FFXIV)

I think that it is not wise to underestimate either of the last two factors, though the first factor cannot be ruled out totally. Based on some data from a mysterious source, I would be unsurprised if the majority of the effect was due to Dev decisions and if FFXIV was a minor effect.

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FFXIV had a rather huge effect, considering over half of my LS is gone playing it scathered around different servers :/

I am not so sure. The decline looks fairly linear here:
http://i.imgur.com/l54n8OL.png

There is a bump for the login campaigns and it tails off a bit early at FFXIV's release, but FFXI was already headed downhill pretty dramatically in June (right after the horizontal-to-vertical switch in May).

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I am not so sure. The decline looks fairly linear here:
http://i.imgur.com/l54n8OL.png

There is a bump for the login campaigns and it tails off a bit early at FFXIV's release, but FFXI was already headed downhill pretty dramatically in June (right after the horizontal-to-vertical switch in May).

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yeah that looks like the decline started when delve hit the shelves it seems, basicly when RMEs got useless and all other previous gear got pritty much bombed due to Delve. I hope the RME update and the hardmode update bring some players back in november, but I really doubt so :/. Seems like the vertical gear progression really was the thing that killed it.

Forget it, my 2 cents would get dissected and criticized anyways.

btw we are all part of a big experiment. All the ideas we came up with to improve this game were taken on board by SE, instead of applying them here they decided to make a new game with all the ideas we came up with and thus created.... FFXIV :P

Opinion:
It would appear to me that around the time that FFXIV (NOT REALM REBORN) was about to release and during the duration of that year they started doing things to make the game more soloable, in theory this is fine due to the fact some of the XI population would obviously like to at least check out the new FF MMO, completely expected. Now in the process of preparing for the new release of XIV they were also trying to keep people engaged in XI (perhaps to collect $25 a person for those that wish to play both games?) and thus adding or building up the releases of aby the way that they did (if i recall corectly and feel free to correct me if i am wrong the last aby add on was released during beta phase of XIV original).

In the attempt to make the game soloable they completely nullified a lot of what the game revolved around...community, there still is a great community but look at the economy in your server...you cant even sell that good low lvl gear you have because of how soloable the game actually is. Some how on the journy to 99 as soon as we hit level 30 people jump into aby and are just lazy and level to 99 (i wont lie i myself am guilty of this just for cretin attributes of X job)....This further hindered the player base by adding a bunch of 99's that haven't even been to kaz yet.

Further more they removed things such as CoP level caps and things that made the game a challenge....its fine if they want to remove the caps and perfectly acceptable in given situation...but what about us that might WANT the level caps there to relive the experience or have a different one all together? I myself never got to experience the CoP with the level 30 cap even being an on and off player since about 07, tho i wouldn't mind playing it capped at lvl 30 just for a more challenging experience.

In addition to the above old end game is freaking soloable....me as PLD/DNC and an LS mate as BLM/WHM duoed the Ark Angels....WHY?

When i started playing i dreamed of the day i could fight gods and be a lvl 75 in an alliance fighting dragons for an hour only to be wiped out....it was something i had looked forward to for a long time...i have only recently been able to reach that goal (due to my on and off game play as i stated previously) and was HUGELY disappointed when i did a CoP dragon fight as well as the Ark Angel fight....mostly because i remembered my firs BCNM for the nation missions...it literally gave me chills i was so excited and the fight was intense even with a full party, it was something i enjoyed the heat of the battle and the pressure to defeat the dragon...i have been robbed of all of these experiences due to the 99 cap and every thing being dummed down

Conclusion:
Adding choices appeals to ALL players as you allowed to choose a path to take and inevitably your own experience. The way i would best resolve what i have stated has disappointing me the most...make caps an option...make some of the old beaten content repayable in a HARDER mode or with an alternate mode (perhaps just no rewards aside from XP to replay it?). At the beginning of CoP offer the option if you want to be capped or not, either beef up the gods and end game of the older content to give the players the experience back they desire, offer a cap option do something make them gods again dont just let the aby zone boss's be better than something thats supposed to be a god...where is the logic behind that?

MOST IMPORTANTLY RAISE THE ABY ENTRY LVL CAP, make players at least learn the core basics of their job and have a weapon skill of 200 in their jobs weapon proficiency before being able to enter aby, may the entry LVL 50 so there is a bit of experience and skill behind a player......make us reunite as players again and get to know each other...rather than go to work and come back a 99 X job.

as a final note why in the world is so much gear rare/ex....how are we supposed to make any gil or keep some kind of economy established when we cant even sell the good treasure we do find because its rare/ex? Its not bad enough that almost no other older gear sells on the AH (at least on fenrir its a terrible economy there) the spells are getting crazy low (I bought about 10 spells for whm from the AH ranging from lvl 30+ spells for under 200K) how are we supposed to even attempt to survive or buy any thing when were only making 10K a crack...and that stupid phalanx spell has yet to drop for me on royal jelly BCNM in at LEAST 15 runs......it just does not make sense....if something is mine in RL can i not sell it? I also ABSOLUTELY HATE the 7 items on AH limitation...if ure going to rare/ex every thing at least find a way to lift the 7 item limit from the AH so we can sell 10000 things only worth 10K

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Originally Posted by korn16ftl3

Some how on the journy to 99 as soon as we hit level 30 people jump into aby and are just lazy and level to 99

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People skip leveling wherever possible because it's not fun. It's never been fun. The game was enjoyable despite the soul-crushing grind, not because of it.

I'm at the point that I think it's ridiculous to call these newer players "lazy" for wanting to actually be entertained by a game they are paying for.

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Further more they removed things such as CoP level caps and things that made the game a challenge...

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Nobody actually liked the level caps. Nobody.

Want to know how I know? Beastmen's Seal battles, ENM battles, ISNM battles, Expeditionary Force, Garrison, Eco-Warrior... they all still have level caps. And nobody does them any more, because they still have level caps. Hell, we wouldn't even have seal storage NPCs at all if people actually wanted to do the fights, but even back then people hated level caps enough to drop Beastmen's Seals as fast as they got 'em.

Level caps were a cheap kludge thrown into CoP shortly before its release and it shows. S-E recognized that nobody would go through that nonsense at low levels if they didn't have to. The end result were a whole mess of players stuck at Chapter 1 because they didn't have exactly the right job and exactly the right gear (which is certainly a theme that hasn't gone away).

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In addition to the above old end game is freaking soloable....me as PLD/DNC and an LS mate as BLM/WHM duoed the Ark Angels....WHY?

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Why the hell not? Are the stats on the Divine Might earrings too game-breaking? There's a whole new expansion out there for "teamwork" and "strategy," complete with relevant gear as rewards.

I personally welcome changes like this because so much of S-E's philosophy with older content is "abandon in place." So much content was and still is broken since its inception (e.g. Ark Angel EV's Spirits Within), but S-E focuses on replacement rather than repair, so having the opportunity to "throw more levels at it" is the only opportunity for many players to experience the expansion pack they paid for.

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When i started playing i dreamed of the day i could fight gods and be a lvl 75 in an alliance fighting dragons for an hour only to be wiped out...

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<Wildskeeper Rieve> <You can have this.>

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make caps an option...

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No real reason not to do this, so long as you ignore the fact that nobody will use it. Level Sync works just fine in Promyvion and, while you can't use that in the mission fights in the Spires, there's still ENMs in those same zones with the same old level caps that nobody is bothering with.

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MOST IMPORTANTLY RAISE THE ABY ENTRY LVL CAP

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Aside from the fact that that ship has sailed, in case you've forgotten S-E still charges money for the Abyssea add-ons. There are apparently enough people who haven't bought them yet to justify a months-long free-access campaign. Nobody will spend money on an add-on they can't actually use.

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I also ABSOLUTELY HATE the 7 items on AH limitation...

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The problem isn't that you can only sell 7 items at a time. The problem is that 99% of drops are completely useless to 99% of the population to begin with.

And to try to shoehorn at least one constructive comment in my wall of text, what S-E needs to do is have a dedicated team go through all the old content, all of it, and make sure the challenge-to-reward ratio for it all actually makes sense. For example, why are there still level caps to begin with? Why is Ark Angel EV's Spirits Within damage uncapped (unlike players)? Why is the Seed Crystal... well, still the Seed Crystal? Why must it take so long to climb Mercenary Rank? etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

People skip leveling wherever possible because it's not fun. It's never been fun. The game was enjoyable despite the soul-crushing grind, not because of it.

I'm at the point that I think it's ridiculous to call these newer players "lazy" for wanting to actually be entertained by a game they are paying for.

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and this is one of the reason why it declining because everyone is burning to 99 at super sonic speeds because of lvl 30+ abyssea. it what killed the whole low/mid lvl pting as you can see, and on top of that SoA killed off all the older events with it broken easy to get skirmish gear. so is this what you wanted? because at this point it started to be unplayable. things was at the safe zone before. now it just broken. loging in with just 500 people is just sad and it gonna get worst;;

Although yes its a horse thats been beaten to death a gazillion times, but I'll give my two cents.
Yes I enjoyed the game more pre-abyssea, the idea of abyssea was ok, the idea of lvl 99 was fine, SE just implemented it wrong (again, they're really good at having a good concept and messing it up)... But that was when? 2 years ago, to late to turn back now right? asking for a lvl cap in abyssea wont fix the real issue.
On the other hand, Back in ye olden days when you were forced to team up with a group of weirdos you totally didnt know, Although a grindfest it did have its advantages.
Most of the people on my flist (the very short one atm, I'm in need of more people to talk to so I can whine less on the forum) are people I met during old school pt'ing, I got my one and only serious long time linkshell (which sadly enough doesnt exist anymore since FFXIV ARR, yes doomsday is comming) through old school pting...
Then came abyssea, SE's idea of opium for the masses. I can honestly tell i never met a friend in abyssea pts, just people trying to lot what you need or stealing your NM's, at the end of the road our ls split up in these kind of cliques (or w/e the english word is) and they all worked with 3~6 on what they wanted/needed and even the group feeling of being in an ls got extremely vague at that point.
So to summarize: abyssea wasnt the carrot on the stick, it was the carrot straight up your derrière.
Lets forget about it, its the here and now, give us R/M/E, give us challenging content, give us a playerbase to buy our goods, gimme someone to talk to gdmi, I want the old community feel back!

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

People skip leveling wherever possible because it's not fun. It's never been fun. The game was enjoyable despite the soul-crushing grind, not because of it.

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Yes it was fun. It was made better by level sync. It's not necessarily 'FUN' for everyone, but it is FUN for some.

I made many friends in exp parties, and we had a good time. Those that left don't talk about missing Abyssea, and in fact most left AFTER Abyssea. They miss the fun we had partying, accomplishing things as a group. Not sitting in a party getting exp while AFK.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Nobody actually liked the level caps. Nobody.

Want to know how I know? Beastmen's Seal battles, ENM battles, ISNM battles, Expeditionary Force, Garrison, Eco-Warrior... they all still have level caps. And nobody does them any more, because they still have level caps. Hell, we wouldn't even have seal storage NPCs at all if people actually wanted to do the fights, but even back then people hated level caps enough to drop Beastmen's Seals as fast as they got 'em.

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Hard to believe anyone would even say this. The BCNMs are great fun. If anything, the people I know are wanting more seals. It was always fun even if it was sometimes annoying to get to the fights, but now that gear level syncs and after the 95 fight you can teleport to the battlegrounds it's better than ever.

There are good things about the new content too. FFXI has so much variety of content, it's amazing to me. But the old content was good and has improved with time. If the initial content were 'so bad' that no one would want to do it, why have folks kept playing this game over 11 years.

More has been added so more playing styles can enjoy the game, and I enjoy Abyssea and Adoulin, etc. But it doesn't mean that no one enjoys the old content. I was fortunate enough to enjoy COP with friends and that's probably what we remember fondly more than anything else, but it doesn't mean I don't understand how frustrating it was for others. People are different, but that's why this game is so awesome. Things improve over time, and new stuff is always being introduced. It may be hit and miss at times, but I think it's better that content is added then tweaked vs. not changing at all. Mistakes may be made, but hopefully, SE will fix them. Folks may leave, but many come back after realizing no game has all that FFXI does.

Leveling may have been fun sometimes, but the sheer amount of time spent XPing to level a single job took the shine off of it for many.