ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

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Originally Posted by Panthera

No, they won't be superior because they said they'd increase Relics and Mythics to be as strong as Empereans, as well as equally easy to get.

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They actually said that they planned on balancing the difficulty between relics and mythics. The only mention of Empyreans was in a previous paragraph where they said they were aware that Empyreans were stronger than Relics. They didn't say anything about making Relics easier to get and judging by the Dynamis changes I doubt that is the case.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

They actually said that they planned on balancing the difficulty between relics and mythics. The only mention of Empyreans was in a previous paragraph where they said they were aware that Empyreans were stronger than Relics.

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I don't follow what you're getting at. If it is still your contention that Relics and Mythics are not worthwhile because they aren't as strong as Empereans, they are in fact going to make Relics and Mythics as strong as Empereans, as follows:...

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons...

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Now, as for your second misunderstanding, as follows:...

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

They didn't say anything about making Relics easier to get...

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Yes, they did, as follows:...

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create...Relic and Mythic weapons.

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Now then, back to your original query, which I didn't really answer, as follows:...

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

why should they make them easier? They already have a set of easy to obtain super weapons

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The reason is that they want to keep content playable and relevant because it gives us reasons to keep playing, which is a good thing. There are still good pieces of AF2 here and there, and so the currency should still have a purpose as well, or what is it for? As for Mythics, there is so much content related to meeting all the quest requirements. They can keep using all that content without modification by simply upgrading the Weapons themselves, which shouldn't be that difficult to re-code. Furthermore, they should make it easier just because the Mythic requirements are just bonkers. There just aren't that many of them out there compared to Empereans and even Relics, and some people, including myself, are still working on them to this day.

That's why.

the only point I see where Empyreans are more powerful, is because the WS are more powerful. The stats on the weapons themselves seem pretty well balanced.

I wouldn't be against making all Relic/Mythic/Empyrean be equally powerful and just as equally easy to obtain. That way there would be some variety in different endgame weapons you see out there, instead of just every NIN having a Kannagi.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

the only point I see where Empyreans are more powerful, is because the WS are more powerful. The stats on the weapons themselves seem pretty well balanced.

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Yea, this actually seems like the main issue. When it comes to weapons like Gungnir and Ryunohige, I would say the stats on the Lv90 versions of those, blow Rhongomiant out of the water. Even with Ryunohige having less DMG, it seems better than Rhongomiant, since the Aftermath of getting to attack twice seems better, because then you could possibly crit each of those two hits.

Although I could be wrong, because I'm not a "Min/Max'er" and I don't do rigid math (I prefer to enjoy my games, not treat them like homework lol), so please forgive me.

welcome to "occasionally does double damage" outside a few of the ws being vastly superior the rest aren't. the 30,40,50% dealing double dmg is the killer for empy. Relic/Mythic need something to equalize this out or they'll never compete.

Seriously....dodge after dodge. It has now been two weeks. Can we have a response please? Waiting patiently for the next round of responses to threads only to end in disappointment that this thread got ignored again. We just want a status on when to expect implementation since it was expected in the 5/9 update which did not happen ; ;

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I wouldn't be against making all Relic/Mythic/Empyrean be equally powerful and just as equally easy to obtain. That way there would be some variety in different endgame weapons you see out there, instead of just every NIN having a Kannagi.

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This is actually impossible, unless they make them all exactly the same, but with different graphics and names. If they are different at all, and the same effort is required for any of them, the players will find the best one, and everyone will get it.

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Originally Posted by Kiba

Seriously....dodge after dodge. It has now been two weeks. Can we have a response please?

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Lack of a response in and of itself is a response, it means something to the effect of "No, go away."

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Originally Posted by Kiba

We just want a status on when to expect implementation since it was expected in the 5/9 update which did not happen ; ;

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You should expect them to work on having the weapons balanced for the level 99 cap, not the 90/95 cap.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

This is actually impossible, unless they make them all exactly the same, but with different graphics and names. If they are different at all, and the same effort is required for any of them, the players will find the best one, and everyone will get it.

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Dude, nobody cares about fractions and barely noticeable percentages. Just make them equally powerful AND with different stats, then for every situation that arises one will slightly top the other (key word being SLIGHTLY).

Kiba I am in your boat, I am awaiting the big response from them. I bet you they are waiting until August when we go to 95 and they boost it huge. But an answer will be nice, because frankly we aren't going away.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

Kiba I am in your boat, I am awaiting the big response from them. I bet you they are waiting until August when we go to 95 and they boost it huge. But an answer will be nice, because frankly we aren't going away.

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With the total number of relic weapons that are being completed up to these days (so little comparing to emp) I don't know if SE will really do it just to benefit the tiny little group of people.

I hope I'm wrong.

Did people forget how to read now? They said they are going to power up relic's and mythics. They are also going to even out the time/effort in a way to balance all 3 on how hard they are to complete. Point being its not going to happen overnight..... Doesn't matter how much you complain.

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Originally Posted by Dew

Did people forget how to read now? They said they are going to power up relic's and mythics. They are also going to even out the time/effort in a way to balance all 3 on how hard they are to complete. Point being its not going to happen overnight..... Doesn't matter how much you complain.

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Not a matter of forgetting but observing the sequence of responses and actions done since we were told something will be done:
1) 03-25-2011 07:08 AM response from community rep that issue the development team is aware of and adjustments will be made to relic and mythic weapons.
2) 5-9-2011 Version Update. Aegis and Burtgang get updates as well as dynamis changes in currency distribution. Players concerned questioned on adjustments because adjustments were not made to all relics and mythics. We were looking forward to implementation because if its just a simple adjustment to WS damage then it would be very reasonable to expect this done by this update.
3) Followup after version update for two weeks inquiring on plans of implementation and when to expect a time of implementation resulting in no response(post-wise) giving the impression that the response on 3-25-2011 was just an act to entertain and lack of response, ignoring is causing losing of player confidence in believing in word/plans on implementation.

Rewinding back a couple of posts, once again this is all we were asking:
a response like "we understand you are eager to see adjustments made to relic and mythic weapons as we have informed weeks ago. however due to large volume of tasks to complete. This will not be implemented until ???"
Development Team, we understand you have a lot on your plate, but reality was we were expecting the adjustments told to be in Monday's update. If this was not possible at least an update on expected date of implementation would be nice. Please evaluate this concern and understand. thank you.


Lastly
Doesn't matter how much you complain.
I beg to differ with this statement. People complained about the atma menu's updated when update notes said this was not done on time. Result was it was implemented shortly after. Point comes down even in several responses of this thread- If players ask nicely there should be a common courtesy to respond and not leave us in the dark like they don't care. I can understand it can take time with so many threads and posts to review, but two weeks? c'mon....

Just need to wait patiently. Sooner or later they will post about it or make a dev topic. Patience is key to everything.

Kiba does have a point about how continuously complaining about it will probably get some response from the devs sooner. If the devs simply say "Fk off we will do it eventually", it reassures as that they are still thinking about it. Having them not saying anything for awhile now makes most of the relic/mythic users worried that they might have forgotten (since there is a ton of other complaints out there). I will also say though that the relic/mythic users should be patient. If they still don't say anything after 2-3 months, then i would be really worried.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Dude, nobody cares about fractions and barely noticeable percentages. Just make them equally powerful AND with different stats, then for every situation that arises one will slightly top the other (key word being SLIGHTLY).

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If they have different stats they cannot be equally powerful, and you are the only one who does not care about being good. I will illustrate my point by using your example of 'all the NINs with Kannagi' Thats right, they all have Kannagi, not kikoku or the thing thats so useless I don't even bother to remember the name, they have Kannagi, because Kannagi is good, and the other 2 are bad. No matter how small the difference between them, one will mathematically beat the others, and that will be the one people try to get. Then we will see more complaints by you worded slightly differently expressing the same problem. You need to just get over it, and deal with the fact that people like being good and useful more then they like being special little flowers.

What I fail to understand is why Relics and especially Mythics are so much harder to obtain, despite being inferior to Empyreans by & Large with a few exceptions.


The recent changes to Dynamis are likely to reduce the flow of currency, not increase it given that you are now required to farm NMs for any decent amount of money. Now depending on your set up this can work in some group's favor but I would wager it's not helping the majority of players. Some of the relics are still worth getting, but they need to be upgraded through the trials (some of which are just horrendously tedious/monotonous) before they can even compare.

Compared to an Empyrean which is basically just a lot of NM camping and once you have the 85 version they turn into real beasts (some more so than others, like Ukonvasara) with their unique WS and double-damage aftermath.

It's more ludicrous for Mythics given that at least relics can be circumvented by buying up currency. There's no shortcut to mythics save for the Alexandrites - You still have to do the 3 kings, ZNMs, Assault, Nyzule Isle 100 for Runic Key, Salvage, Captain Rank, finish the Aht Urhgan story, beat Odin and rack up 100,000 ichor... and of course you need Assault Points to do Salvage which directly conflicts with Nyzule Isle.

Plus, even upgraded, there's maybe a handful of the mythics that are even worth getting - WHM PUP DNC (debatable in light of its recent job adjustments) COR (again debatable given how good the Empyrean Gun is) & SMN. Burtgang is sadly still little more than fancy trash for any PLD with an Ochain, unless we start seeing more NMs that deal absurd physical damage that can't be blocked.

In fact the only Relic I'd really even consider getting at this point personally is Yochinoyumi for SAM just as another potent skillchain option since SAM can't use Gandiva or Harrier. Aegis is something of a novelty I suppose as well for anything that uses a lot of highly dangerous magic, but the only NMs that come to mind that would warrant this are AV & PW.

So what's the dev team planning on doing? As long as it doesn't involving nerfing Empyreans in some way.

Posting this here too since I think it's important to note even some Empyrean weapons are hurting:

I'd love if they were achieved by a combination of relics mythics and empyrean WSs (or maybe add this as an even higher secret level of SCs so that all players have something new at least at 99). Also, while I managed to get a post close to your attention I know you're looking into tweaking relic WSs, can you please look into Camlann's Torment? I don't think it's right that drakesbane should be better than the empyrean WS, I think mythic and even some empyrean WSs should also be reviewed for buffs.

I had the idea of Camlann's ignoring 50 at 100, 75 at 200, and 100% defense at 300 TP. Keep in mind, Wheeling Thrust already does what I said by ignoring half defense, so I really think it's absurd a weapon as big of a pain to obtain as this thing is (CHLORIS) is getting beat by a normal WS with the same description (in the sense that Camlann's only ingores 10%), and is crushed in damage by the WS we'd already been using forever (Drakesbane).

Really, WSs that stay the same across all levels should go away and offer some kind of rewards for stepping it up. Especially mythic/empyrean ones that you have to build up to 300% for aftermaths.

I really hope I can get a response on this. I don't see why only relic owners should be on the receiving end of buffs, not every empyrean is almace or ukonvasara. And I KNOW many mythics need serious tweaking. An extremely easy starting point for fixing these WSs is just look at which crit and which don't, most that don't probably might need some love, and most that do are the standard for the current metagame.

One last note, we all love Razed Ruins and this isn't an issue related to that nor am I looking for anything to be done to the Atma. Camlann's gets beat by Drakes outside Abyssea too.

It's not just CT, but Rudra's Storm is also fairly weak unless you use either Sneak Attack to force a critical. This really makes the Dagger only ideal for THF, as BRD would be much better served with Mandau for damage and Trepsichore for DNC.


I'm quite honestly surprised that neither Quietus nor Torcleaver crit as well, given that one of DRK's major issues is a lack of a good critical hit weaponskill (it's also what's killing SAM at the moment).

Given that they have actually increased the difficulty of upgrading a Relic with the current dynamis changes, Relic WS should be altered in the following way in order to make them worth the effort.

They should add Critical hit rate+25% and "Increases maximum enmity" to Aegis.

Additional damage proc on relics should be increased from the current 5% to 20%

All Relic WS should be changed to fTP 4.0/5.5/6.5 at 100/200/300% TP and deal automatic critical damage. All relics should ignore 50% of cRatio on both WS and melee hits.

All relic WS should deal the same number of hits as depicted in the WS. This means:

1H: 4 hits

2H: 1 hit (except for Polearm which is 2 hits)

1 hit on 2H and 4 hit on 1H will balance out due to lower base DMG on 1H weapons. It might be necessary to lower the fTP on Polearm due to it being a 2 hit WS on a 2H weapon to keep it's damage balanced with other relics.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Given that they have actually increased the difficulty of upgrading a Relic with the current dynamis changes, Relic WS should be altered in the following way in order to make them worth the effort.

They should add Critical hit rate+25% and "Increases maximum enmity" to Aegis.

Additional damage proc on relics should be increased from the current 5% to 20%

All Relic WS should be changed to fTP 4.0/5.5/6.5 at 100/200/300% TP and deal automatic critical damage. All relics should ignore 50% of cRatio on both WS and melee hits.

All relic WS should deal the same number of hits as depicted in the WS. This means:

1H: 4 hits

2H: 1 hit (except for Polearm which is 2 hits)

1 hit on 2H and 4 hit on 1H will balance out due to lower base DMG on 1H weapons. It might be necessary to lower the fTP on Polearm due to it being a 2 hit WS on a 2H weapon to keep it's damage balanced with other relics.

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It is worth mentioning that not all 1H weapons have animations that does 4 hits. I think Knights of Round is 2 hit, while Final Heaven is only 1 hit. Also another thing about Spharai that the dev team NEEDS to fix is that Spharai can only proc its hidden effect (the 2.5 damage multiplier) on only its First hit. It will NEVER proc on the 2nd.
Edit: Correction, Knights of Round is only a 1 hit WS too animation wise.

They aren't going to even the difficulty of relics and mythics to be the same as emp. If you read the post it says relics and mythics difficulty to obtain will be balanced, emp was not mentioned. It is likely then that their intention is to buff relic and mythic to be stronger than emp and either make mythic easier to obtain or relic more difficult(of course if they succeed is a different story). I would personally prefer them to make mythic easier to obtain. I am currently working on spharai, so I hope they do not make relics more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

They aren't going to even the difficulty of relics and mythics to be the same as emp. If you read the post it says relics and mythics difficulty to obtain will be balanced, emp was not mentioned. It is likely then that their intention is to buff relic and mythic to be stronger than emp and either make mythic easier to obtain or relic more difficult(of course if they succeed is a different story). I would personally prefer them to make mythic easier to obtain. I am currently working on spharai, so I hope they do not make relics more difficult.

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One can really hope such plans are in place. But even so without a response to keep the playerbase informed it is all just wishful thinking.

So before a new thread is opened titled
"Known Issues: Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments "Delayed" again?! /sulk More info if any if you PLEASE!"
can we kindly have an update on plans for adjustments please? Once again, a lot of players expected this
to happen in the 5/9 update, only ending in disappointment. An ETA on when this is planned would be
much appreciated. Thank you /bow

Why did you expect it to happen on the 5/9 update when they never said they would. It takes time to test things and make sure they dont overpower something. The ageis-burtgang thing was a nice start that NO one expected.

They said relic was made easier in last update 5/9 (presumably they meant you could get currency faster because you can enter more? and your NM doesn't warp out now). Mythic was goint to happen in a later update, just looking for the date please... oh, and a method of obtaining that doesn't require me to shackle an entire LS to my bidding for 1+years for my sole benefit.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

They said relic was made easier in last update 5/9 (presumably they meant you could get currency faster because you can enter more? and your NM doesn't warp out now). Mythic was goint to happen in a later update, just looking for the date please... oh, and a method of obtaining that doesn't require me to shackle an entire LS to my bidding for 1+years for my sole benefit.

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I think we all misunderstood the DEV's plan: dynamis-reborn will only leads to harder coin drop because of the triggering and you have shorter player time, also dyna requires no entrance fee, every n00b and vet now goes, the drop rate, of course you are aware of now, it's actually lower for each of your run. SE did a good job on the 'distribution' to even out the drop to everyone but not increasing the total number of coin drop.

I already saw single bills tag at 12k+; how is that suppose to make it easier?

Dynamis-reborn will eventually forced all relic-maker go farm coins which is going to take you this long:

Example: Annihilator
Total 100 piece: 182
Assuming you get 60 coins/bills each run and 5 times a week: that's 60 weeks, or 1.15 year. 100 piece will speed up the process but after 10-12 runs i have not seen one not even DL.

While this is in place, relic will just be harder to get unless you go after RMT selling your car/house for gil to buy coins.

And because of that, the total number of relics being completed will be so little that SE can considered it insignificant, if that's the case, why they will do it to favor only a little group of sore players?

I really hope I'm wrong tho.

you'll notice I was careful to never say the change WORKED...

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Why did you expect it to happen on the 5/9 update when they never said they would. It takes time to test things and make sure they dont overpower something. The ageis-burtgang thing was a nice start that NO one expected.

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Two months to just adjust WS dmg factors and period of testing sounds reasonable to me. Like I said before unless the plans are to revamp all weapons including aftermath the expectation was not unreasonable.Let me reiterate balance fix issues should be more immediate than new additions. But point comes down even if it takes more time what's the problem with responding? Only case would be the cake was just a lie and the response in March was just to entertain.

Lets review the most recent response for a thread that has gotten responses multiple times:
Just to give you all a bit more insight into what the development team has planned:
Honestly why can't we have this in this thread? The only explanation would be that they are ignoring and dodging inquiries and don't care.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

you'll notice I was careful to never say the change WORKED...

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Right and unfortunately this already happened /cry

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Originally Posted by Kiba

Two months to just adjust WS dmg factors and period of testing sounds reasonable to me. Like I said before unless the plans are to revamp all weapons including aftermath the expectation was not unreasonable.Let me reiterate balance fix issues should be more immediate than new additions. But point comes down even if it takes more time what's the problem with responding? Only case would be the cake was just a lie and the response in March was just to entertain.

Lets review the most recent response for a thread that has gotten responses multiple times:
Just to give you all a bit more insight into what the development team has planned:
Honestly why can't we have this in this thread? The only explanation would be that they are ignoring and dodging inquiries and don't care.

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Ever heard of no news is good news? They most likely havent responded because there is simply nothing to update unless you just want to hear "We are still currently working on this"

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Ever heard of no news is good news? They most likely havent responded because there is simply nothing to update unless you just want to hear "We are still currently working on this"

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Exactly, just a status and insight on plans as well as expected time of implementation would be appreciated.

I agree with you 100% Kiba.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Why did you expect it to happen on the 5/9 update when they never said they would. It takes time to test things and make sure they dont overpower something. The ageis-burtgang thing was a nice start that NO one expected.

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I think you and others might be assuming that SE became aware that there was a problem in late March 2011. That would be false. I also think this needs to be reviewed in terms that an update has already happened and a new one is not planned for weeks.

These weapons were known to be drastically different at least as early September. There are dozens if not hundreds of posts to this effect on Alla, BG and other sites that made this clear. Moreover, I assume that many relic owners were posting email complaints to SE last year.

The announcement in March was the first public admission that they were aware of this. That it was posted without having already made significant headway on a plan to fix is now obvious. And having not made the correction on 5/9, it's reasonable that no change will occur before mid June at the earliest.

In short, there has a lot of time to make a change to this issue and the lack of a mere update or time schedule makes it appear there is no imminent solution or being repeatedly replaced by newer projects.

Let's hope we are wrong and that we'll see it is planned to be part of the June update.

While I do agree they could throw us a bone about some time frames. I think it's pretty obvious they are working on it. I also think it's going to take longer than many posting here are thinking.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

While I do agree they could throw us a bone about some time frames. I think it's pretty obvious they are working on it. I also think it's going to take longer than many posting here are thinking.

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Or completely ignoring us and hoping we will go away. I am standing firm with my 18 months of my life I did to get my Apoc, and another 6 months doing the REAL 9500 Mobs for the trials, before the changed it.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

If they have different stats they cannot be equally powerful, and you are the only one who does not care about being good. I will illustrate my point by using your example of 'all the NINs with Kannagi' Thats right, they all have Kannagi, not kikoku or the thing thats so useless I don't even bother to remember the name, they have Kannagi, because Kannagi is good, and the other 2 are bad. No matter how small the difference between them, one will mathematically beat the others, and that will be the one people try to get. Then we will see more complaints by you worded slightly differently expressing the same problem. You need to just get over it, and deal with the fact that people like being good and useful more then they like being special little flowers.

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No, duh? People know this $#!% already. Why do you think they're making threads like these and asking for adjustments to Relic/Mythic? The idea here IS to make them balanced. You're just spewing stuff people already know and acting like you're smarter than everyone else, because you think they don't know anything.

Why the hell would I make an "Improve Sange, Improve Throwing" thread, if I already thought Throwing and Sange was good?


Ohh, uhh, errmmm. Yea, you can't answer that last question, because its irrefutable. So take a seat.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

I think you and others might be assuming that SE became aware that there was a problem in late March 2011. That would be false. I also think this needs to be reviewed in terms that an update has already happened and a new one is not planned for weeks.

These weapons were known to be drastically different at least as early September. There are dozens if not hundreds of posts to this effect on Alla, BG and other sites that made this clear. Moreover, I assume that many relic owners were posting email complaints to SE last year.

The announcement in March was the first public admission that they were aware of this. That it was posted without having already made significant headway on a plan to fix is now obvious. And having not made the correction on 5/9, it's reasonable that no change will occur before mid June at the earliest.

In short, there has a lot of time to make a change to this issue and the lack of a mere update or time schedule makes it appear there is no imminent solution or being repeatedly replaced by newer projects.

Let's hope we are wrong and that we'll see it is planned to be part of the June update.

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I agree from what you saying that it is factual that the issue was known for a long time. I remember before forums were up it was also raised up from both EN/JP players on Twitter. I just think its wrong to recognize an issue and put it behind things implemented. Like I said previously fixes should be immediate and addressed during short term maintenances.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

They aren't going to even the difficulty of relics and mythics to be the same as emp. If you read the post it says relics and mythics difficulty to obtain will be balanced, emp was not mentioned. It is likely then that their intention is to buff relic and mythic to be stronger than emp and either make mythic easier to obtain or relic more difficult(of course if they succeed is a different story). I would personally prefer them to make mythic easier to obtain. I am currently working on spharai, so I hope they do not make relics more difficult.

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I think I can see how the post might have read they are going to even out relic mythic and emp.

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

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Do you think "weapons", the last word in the quote, is referring to Relic and Mythic and empyrean? Or just Relic and Mythic. The sentence prior says adjustments to time and cost required .... relic and mythic, so that would lead you to believe relic and mythic only. I wish they would clarify as I would hate to trade a 10,000 piece and then a week later you only need 1000.

i personally don't understand why players who have relic's want them updated, RPG's were formed on the basis that you get the best and over the next level's you have to get the best again, but that is just my opinion.

What i'm going at is the fact that SE knows there is a large and sometimes gaining in number of issues they need to work out to fix the game and bring balance back to the force.... erm.... i mean FF:XI. I think the rushed the level caps at a rate that was too fast for them to compensate between caps. While some jobs have become legends in their own others get the cold shoulder in the name of balance.

I personally don't see SE making relic's/mythic's the best anymore since they were made for old content but i do see them allowing you to upgrade their powers to be on par with newer gear. I don't want to start any fights/arguments but this is how i see SE is walking at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

i personally don't understand why players who have relic's want them updated

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I think it has something to do with Relics and Mythics taking years to upgrade while Empyreans take a week or less.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

I think it has something to do with Relics and Mythics taking years to upgrade while Empyreans take a week or less.

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Agreed, and actually get a good group and you can do them in a two days now that is emp.