Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

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Originally Posted by ericnuke

Love the in-depth telling of haste with the chart and all. Now, can you make one for all the SAMs that think they are awesome, but don't WS in same stp gear as they tp in?

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are saying sam should WS AND TP in the SAME amount of STP gear?

Cause you would be mistaken.

Good Info man

This is hella useful. Or rather, it will be, when I hit max level.

Is haste gear favorable for EXPing, as well as end-game content? I'm still mid 40s- early 50s on the jobs I want to level (THF and NIN, respectively), and I want to know what I should be looking for until I do finally get up there with the big kids.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

But then I will die because the mob is crit hitting me or using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.

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If you're not willing to die for your damage then go level fucking bard. ~Rykoshet

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Originally Posted by Frost

Ok, progress.
The thing is, it's obviously not ALL about haste. Since the post was first posted until this very second, I stated at the bottom:

The thing is this, unfortunately, this game is like any other dice and paper game ok? It's about numbers. You roll a 20 sided die and the numbers you throw up are your effectiveness in a group.

I state the following as an illustration, and not an insult in any way shape or form. You are rolling with a six sided dice, at one third the frequency of my thief, which happens to be rolling a solid twenty sided dice where 19/20 of the facets have "20" on them and I get to roll it three times as often.

What do I mean by that?

Roughly, comparing the gear you have versus mine:
Delay wise: I attack at an estimated 81% more times than you,
Frequency wise I'm hitting 24% more frequently than you.
Accuracy wise, versus a VT/IT mob, you'd parse in the high 60's low 70's, to my 92%+

That all said, I hit in total:
207 times in the time it takes you to hit 72 hits.

EVEN IF... I did not swap ANY gear, and I HAPPEN to weaponskill at 1/2 the potency of you, I would STILL out damage you.

Again, not picking on you.

Meanwhile:
I can cast either of my shadows 50% more frequently than you, and I can evade 22% better than you.

Now
That's not even the best case scenario.

If a monster is casting on me, I can swap into a set that mitigates 25% of all magical damage. IN terms of numbers, if I get a Blizaga IV to the face for 1200, it drops it down to to only 900 (Survivable).

When I cast a spell I put on enough evasion to drop the monsters effective accuracy to 20%, +/- 10% depending on the monster's level; ensuring I get the spell off. Mind you I do that while shaving an entire 25% of the actual cast time off the spell.

When I so wish, I can weaponskill in gear that if I were just to change 2 pieces and 2 pieces only I can guarantee a minimum of 15% damage to my weaponskill. if I swap the rest I can add 300% more Str than you're adding, 200% more Dex than you're adding, and for shits and giggles, a splash of Chr, Acc, Att, Triple attack, etc...

Using even basic gear-swaps maximizes your output when called for.

By my roughest of roughest of rough math, I could say I out-damage you on the order of 5:1, all the while keeping myself safe, my party safe, and making sure the mob dies quickly.

I am not an elitist. Anyone who knows me can attest to that. But people should expect better of themselves. Wouldn't you like to up your effectiveness 500% with minimal effort? Or maybe even just 100%? Wouldn't you be pissed if someone you worked with only did 20% of what you did and you get paid the same?

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I'm not against bettering myself at all. But I don't really see anything wrong with how I play either. I know you're not picking on me and you're just trying to inform me, so I'm cool with you. I will consider the information seriously, but I"m done clogging up your thread fighting with everybody else.

hmmm
anyone got a haste VS DW graph for cap? would be a good quick reference tool.

Also, what would be the minimum setups for capping delay reduction.

Looks like brd/whm + nin or dnc would probably work.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

Thanx for the info Frost. Its nice to have a simple table that actually shows the improvements at different intervals.

To all the Elitists out there (not including Frost who has quite shown he is not), If you want to "improve" the player base. Don't be a jerk. You are damaging your own cause. You whine and whine about how sucky some players are, then when there is someone willing to listen for a bit, you completely turn them off w/ personal attacks and insults. This says you don't really want other players to improve. What you really want is for them to stay poorer so that you can have an excuse to pretend you are better than they are. its pretty sad.. as in pathetic. If I picked some info about you whether real or made up to insult you up and down, you wouldn't want to listen to a word I said either. It wouldn't matter if any of it was true or not.

There are still many players who do not understand how haste works, or at least they will not know all the implications. Before the level cap increase, filling out haste gear for your job was more challenging. thats not an excuse for the trolling in this thread... She could have been wiser about it too, but she was too self-conscious about being called 'bad' or and idiot.

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Thank you Xilk.

I swear I have facepalmed at least once for every page in this tread, starting from around page 3. It's been a while since I've seen so much ignorance displayed in one single forum thread.

Let me just assure all the guys here that not all female FFXI players are the same.

My thanks to the OP for an informative post.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

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To all of you who are so ignorant as to think Naturebeckles did not bring this hate on herself. This is her first post, in case you forgot. Who is the one starting s*it again?

To the OP, thank you for posting this informative guide for all of our uninformed and newbies to the game. It's too bad is gets crapped up by trolls.

The whole irony of this thing is that Beckles like just as much an "elitist" as anyone else.

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I'm not against bettering myself at all. But I don't really see anything wrong with how I play either.

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The thread has shown numerous times why your style of gearing is less efficient for damage and survivability than those of others, hence showing that you are going wrong with your choices. To ignore those choices and disregard them is to actually be against bettering yourself.

A lot of this "oh I don't need haste" talk must only come from anti-conformist mindsets that most people grow out of by their late teens. FFXI is based on numbers and math. It is not about believing in the heart of cards. Not knowing the math is fine; being shown it and rejecting it outright is not. It's quite sad to see such juvenile behavior in a supposedly grown woman.

@ Vivik and Dooom: Thank god you two pointed these things out for me. Had I done so, it would have been with a lot of profanity and would have gotten me banned. My self-control only goes so far. :\

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

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Exactly this was the first post by Nature and was a clear attack on the OP as well as the validity of the benefits of haste.

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Originally Posted by Kuishen

@ Vivik and Dooom: Thank god you two pointed these things out for me. Had I done so, it would have been with a lot of profanity and would have gotten me banned. My self-control only goes so far. :\

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Self control I have plenty of. Three kids teach you that in a hurry. What I still cant wrap my head around is why she started posting in this thread in the first place. People are talking about personal attacks in this thread yet all I see are people simply being informative of your available options in the game. Nature started attacking the OP by claiming he is a haste whore for creating this thread. When in actuality I think she is an attention whore for posting in this thread. She bring absolutely nothing to the conversation at all. Hence why I think she is just trolling. Where is her husband who she claims is a good player in all of this? I'll tell ya, hiding under the freaking table next to her. I would not post either.

P.S. He's obligated to tell you you're awesome, he's your husband...

You'll never find me making insults against anyone who asks for help and that applies to most people here. Only time I'll make "attacks" is when someone is posting just to hinder things, like Beckles whose entire point of posting was to hinder discussion/spread of information.

If her approach was "I haven't been swapping gear or using much Haste up to this point - is it really as good as people say it is?" etc then the outcome of this thread would've been much different.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

If there's no basis for construction discussion, then you should just shut up because player bashing just serves to boost your own pathetic game self-esteem.

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Maybe you should take your own advice from another thread.

So many good LoLz in this thread! Also picked up nugget about DW. Good stuff. Back to civilizations in an attempt to ease the FF withdrawals. PS: Devs if you take anything away from this thread plz let it be that what ever new content you have planned for 95-99 or end game afterwards plz plz plz let it be outside abyssea. Many players are in serious need of a reality check. Back to basics SE. Back to basics :)

Haste Samba is 10% max at merits. Each merit gives it 1% extra to the already 5% it gives.

Additionally, DW does nothing for Utsu recast, never forget that if macro-ing in max haste for recast.

Haste is for losers and idiots. Pile on an important stat, like Charisma.

EVERYONE likes Charismatic people! The more CHR you have, the more parties you'll get invited to for exp and events! No one will care what your gear or haste is because everyone will look at you and say "wow. That is one charismatic guy!"

CHR is the way to the future, my friends.

I guess monsters have a different taste in fashion than me, because there's no way I can find a man dressed like a sheep "charming" <.<

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Originally Posted by Kagato

Haste is for losers and idiots. Pile on an important stat, like Charisma.

EVERYONE likes Charismatic people! The more CHR you have, the more parties you'll get invited to for exp and events! No one will care what your gear or haste is because everyone will look at you and say "wow. That is one charismatic guy!"

CHR is the way to the future, my friends.

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I know a few people on my server that think exactly that. These are also the same people that still have to buy maps and need their hand held for everything... Yeah, they're out there...

I'm a haste Junkie <<<<

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Originally Posted by Sinthetic

I'm a haste Junkie <<<<

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NO! *kicks shin with steel-toed boot*

You pack on that CHR right the hell now!

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Originally Posted by Kagato

NO! *kicks shin with steel-toed boot*

You pack on that CHR right the hell now!

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heheheeh i got my Zelus Tiara 4 hours before they shutdown the servers o.O

Nice initial post but it leaves a lot out.

1) Those charts/tables for haste assume no dual wield/martial arts which is nice for comparison, but really underestimates the majority of the population. AKA a thf/nin isnt really going from 24 to 25%, they are going from 44 to 45 (made up for example)

2) 80% haste isnt a 400% increase in attack rounds, at 240 dly you have 15 /min, with 80% haste you have 75. Thats a 500% increase. You had the right calculation when you translated it to hits.

The TLDNR version:
Haste at smaller values is pretty crap and you might not notice 22 to 23 % haste. Add on bard songs, whm, and dualwield/martial arts and going from 79 to 80% haste is huge.

keep this in mind when you say you have a 400% or 500% ( i'm a bit lost in why the comment but i want to point this fact out to make sure it should be one or the other)

when you say 100% increase it means your total is oringal amount times 2 for outcome , like wise 400% means orginal vaule times 5.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

Maybe you should take your own advice from another thread.

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Oh yeah? Tell me where I actually bashed another player's game play on here.

Oh wait, don't. Because I'm tired of talking to people who say I'm a bad player for not playing the way they do. If you're one of those people who is about to open your mouth and do that, then don't bother talking to me.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

You'll never find me making insults against anyone who asks for help and that applies to most people here. Only time I'll make "attacks" is when someone is posting just to hinder things, like Beckles whose entire point of posting was to hinder discussion/spread of information.

If her approach was "I haven't been swapping gear or using much Haste up to this point - is it really as good as people say it is?" etc then the outcome of this thread would've been much different.

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I highly doubt that. Maybe YOU would have reacted differently. But I think a lot of the people I was talking to last night would have been the same jerkfaces regardless.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Oh yeah? Tell me where I actually bashed another player's game play on here.

Oh wait, don't. Because I'm tired of talking to people who say I'm a bad player for not playing the way they do. If you're one of those people who is about to open your mouth and do that, then don't bother talking to me.

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/sigh... Lets see how many times I can repost this..

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

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Your first response of the thread, directly insulting someones play style for using haste....

Need I say more?

It's mathematically proven that capping gear haste will make you a better DD as it will make you deal more damage in the same amount of time as someone with little to no gear haste. How Naturebeckles can even argue with that, is beyond me.

Not using haste gear and not gearswap makes you an inferior DD. In fact it makes you an inferior player as far as performance and efficiency goes, whether you are on a DD job or on a mage job.

The "I don't gear swap because then I blink and mages won't be able to cure me" excuse is pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

/sigh... Lets see how many times I can repost this..



Your first response of the thread, directly insulting someones play style for using haste....

Need I say more?

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Uh no no no no no. I was NOT insulting ANYBODY for using haste. I saw the whole discussion about the all the specifics of the math of how haste works as kind of pointless. I'm not saying Frost's guide was pointless. But there were pages of people agreeing/disagreeing about how that math worked. I never said haste was bad or criticized anyone for using haste gear. Not once will you see me say any of that. It's taking everything I have right now to not insult you over your reading skills.

I wish there was a way to block a player.. naturebeckles brings absolutely nothing to the discussion of haste.

Are these forums even moderated?

Naturebeckles, why does it even bother you that people were discussing exactly how the haste maths works? Why did you even start reading this thread? Seeing as you don't believe in haste anyway?

You brought this on yourself by posting in this thread when you had nothing to contribute to the ongoing discussion, all you did was say "well this is pointless duh!"

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Uh no no no no no. I was NOT insulting ANYBODY for using haste. I saw the whole discussion about the all the specifics of the math of how haste works as kind of pointless. I'm not saying Frost's guide was pointless. But there were pages of people agreeing/disagreeing about how that math worked. I never said haste was bad or criticized anyone for using haste gear. Not once will you see me say any of that. It's taking everything I have right now to not insult you over your reading skills.

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But you did just insult me. Just like you insulted all of the "haste whores" out there in you initial post. It's fine keep it coming, the more you speak the dumber you sound.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

But you did just insult me. Just like you insulted all of the "haste whores" out there in you initial post. It's fine keep it coming, the more you speak the dumber you sound.

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Whatever Vivik. You're just another troll's troll.

No, he's just correct.

I'm going to go with Vivik being correct as well.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

No, he's just correct.

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This. 100% this.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Uh no no no no no. I was NOT insulting ANYBODY for using haste. I saw the whole discussion about the all the specifics of the math of how haste works as kind of pointless. I'm not saying Frost's guide was pointless. But there were pages of people agreeing/disagreeing about how that math worked. I never said haste was bad or criticized anyone for using haste gear. Not once will you see me say any of that. It's taking everything I have right now to not insult you over your reading skills.

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I am wondering, are you a bit new with talking to people on fourm? there are people here that have spliced how the game works and back track to give exact fomrulas, so there are some math nerds here like my self that are very picky how mcuh statments are worded to be correct to the letter ( or should i say to the decimal?)

like how i posted this comment:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

keep this in mind when you say you have a 400% or 500% ( i'm a bit lost in why the comment but i want to point this fact out to make sure it should be one or the other)

when you say 100% increase it means your total is oringal amount times 2 for outcome , like wise 400% means orginal vaule times 5.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Whatever Vivik. You're just another troll's troll.

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It's trolling to point out where you are wrong? You overreacted and acted like an ass in your first post and expected to not take any crap for it. You've been called out on your hypocritical behavior and the best thing you can come up with is "you're a troll"? Please...

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I am wondering, are you a bit new with talking to people on fourm? there are people here that have spliced how the game works and back track to give exact fomrulas, so there are some math nerds here like my self that are very picky how mcuh statments are worded to be correct to the letter ( or should i say to the decimal?)

like how i posted this comment:

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Well, yes I am actually. I have no problem whatsoever with the Math. I'm not going to sit here and actually argue Math or game mechanics. I know there are people like you and Frost who are way smarter than me with that stuff.

But, as I will always maintain - gear choice is mainly done over the opinion each person has about what gear is best for them based on how they play, what they're goals are, whether they care about outperforming other players or not, and etc. Even their race makes a different. An Elvaan BLM will need to stack more INT than other races because their natural base INT is lower than other races. That's just an example. Thought I do appreciate Frost's original post and subsequent replies, especially to me... being from a teaching standpoint and not just telling me I'm a "bad player" for not gear swapping and having a heavy haste/tp setup, I may not change the way I play. Simply because I've never really cared about other players outperforming me. At the end of the day, the mobs still die, battles and missions are still won, and even if I'm just an "average" player, I'm ok with that. Maybe getting offended easily over being called a "bad player" was my downfall last night. However, i'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who would take offense to being called a bad player as being a fact based solely on gear choices.